High End Classic Car Contracts - is this how the big guys do business?

Astro14

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Packards were never that desirable. If a man had money in 1934 he'd buy a duesenberg. Don't forget the only reason 50 were made cause it was the height of the depression and they didn't sell
You couldn’t be more wrong.

A Duesenberg was a rare car, and a celebrity‘s car. The Veyron comparison I made was not entirely accurate. Packard competed with Rolls-Royce. A Duesenberg was four times the price of a Packard 12. Nearly ten times the price of a Packard 8. The expression, “It’s a Doozy” comes from how outrageous the Duesenberg was. But Duesenberg only made the most expensive cars, unlike Packard.

They weren’t direct competitors. Duesenberg didn’t survive the Depression. Duesenberg ceased to exist in 1934.
Packard did survive because they had a complete line up. From sixes, to eights, to twelves. A successful working man could afford a Packard six, perhaps an eight. Just as a successful working man today could afford a Mercedes, though perhaps not an S class or Maybach.

At the beginning of World War Two, when Rolls Royce was looking for a US manufacturer to make their Supercharged 1650 CI V-12 Merlin aircraft engines, they visited many companies in the US.

Only one company met Rolls Royce standards for precision and workmanship - Packard.

And most of the Merlin engines in the war, including the engine in every single P-51, were built by Packard.

As was every PT boat engine - a 2,500 cubic inch supercharged V-12 marine engine known for its power and durability in the war. Packard designed and built.

In their entire 12 year run, Duesenberg sold about 1,200 cars, including about 500 J/SJ, which were sold from 1928-1937.

In 1934 alone, at the height of the Depression, the low point for car sales and the sales year that drove Duesenberg under, Packard sold 8,000 cars, including nearly 1,000 V-12s.
 
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What do plane engines have to do with depression era cars? The only reason Packard made it thru the depression cause they cheapened their cars and lowered prices and lost their reputation. Cadillac was always nipping at their heels

But anyways, I should have added Packards were never that desirable and aren't so much to collectors
 
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69GTX

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Packards were never that desirable. If a man had money in 1934 he'd buy a duesenberg. Don't forget the only reason 50 were made cause it was the height of the depression and they didn't sell

Often times that's exactly the reason that something "undesirable" in a previous era becomes very desirable to collectors in the current era. What was "unpopular" then becomes very popular now if only because of the scarcity. If it's only because of "lack of money" or a "depression/recession" that's a recipe for a desirable car down the road. As mentioned above Packard had many lines. And arguably the '34 Coupe Roadster 12 was the most desirable car in the most desirable year. In it's own way, it was a sporty, expensive, and large car for that period.

Hemi Daytona's were not popular in their time.....neither were Hemi Cuda Convertibles.....or Tuckers. In the case of the 30's Packards being unaffordable to most back then.....and the very limited production....is exactly one of the major reasons why the are desired today. Black muscle cars were not very desirable in the '67 to '71 era....they only accounted for approx 2-3% of production. Today....it's one of the most desirable and sought after colors.....precisely because they were unpopular back then.

Duesenberg made approx 480 J/SJ cars over their 10 yr span....about 50 per year.....and similar to the Packard CR12 production. By the above comparison the Duesenbergs "didn't sell either." The Duesenbergs cost much more than the top Packards once they were fully outfitted. I guess if you wanted Duesenberg-like quality for a lot less money.....Packard was a good choice.
 
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That's just it. He won't provide any of the documents or terms he expects my friend to agree to. He just keeps asking him "do we have a deal now at $XXXXXX"? And that loop just keeps running. My friend says no, I need to see ALL the documents I will have to sign. And the potential buyer ignores that request and asks...."do we have a deal at $XXXXXX." I'm sure these are the high powered negotiation tactics that all these guys live by. Never be the first to give in. If you do, they will nibble away at you until the bones are bared.

So he says yes we have a deal.
That’s not binding if he has t signed or seen the docs
 

Astro14

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What do plane engines have to do with depression era cars? The only reason Packard made it thru the depression cause they cheapened their cars and lost their reputation. Cadillac was always nipping at their heels

But anyways, I should have added Packards were never that desirable and aren't so much to collectors
Again, you’re wrong.

Packards have always been highly desirable. “Never” that desirable is just false.

They’re desirable precisely because of their quality and what they represent. The aircraft engine production was simply representative of their engineering and manufacturing prowess. Machine shops that could measure to 1/1,000,000 of an inch in the 1930s, for example.

The collector market has changed a bit since, say, the 1960s, but Packard has always represented the very best in American cars.
 

69GTX

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https://www.ebay.com/itm/3253833605...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Looks like all the billionaire experts were wrong on this car. Their claims if the car was "exposed" on EBay or any other "for sale"
site would result in no support from the big boyz, and depressed pricing. Didn't happen. The car bid to nearly $92,000 in fairly
spirited bidding. Several dealers were in the mix and probably a couple collectors. While it didn't meet the Reserve Price my friend set,
it's probably going to be with a new owner very shortly. Fortunately, looks to be a WIN WIN for both parties. Some of the so-called
national experts appraised the car in the $35K to $50K range tops. The expert buyer that this thread was mostly about was competitive
on the car all along but either got cold feet or couldn't finance it.
 
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I said it in my first post here that it is most likely a "game with the poor". Looks like I was correct. The "experts" were not wrong, they were just looking out for their and their client's best interest. Your friend did a smart move and started looking out for his best interests and called their bluff. Good for him and I hope he gets a lot more than his reserve.
 

Astro14

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Interesting that buyers were willing to go to $90,000+ on eBay, with minimal pictures. A basket case of a car, but complete and documented, being worth $100,000 speaks to the post-restoration value perception of a rare 1934 V-12.
 
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Did the eBay high bid come close to what the original buyer was offering? I see that it did not sell on eBay.
 
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I watched the last few minutes of the auction. The price was stuck in the $60Ks, only getting up to and over $90K in the last minute or so. The snipers were out.
 

69GTX

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Did the eBay high bid come close to what the original buyer was offering? I see that it did not sell on eBay.

Yes, the EBay bidding by the 2 highest bidders that took the car from $77K to $91K was in the same range as the expert guy
who was trying to make my friend jump through hoops. And by the end, he was asking him to toss in extra parts (like a pair of
original '34 Coupe Roadster doors) for FREE. Those doors alone are probably worth in the $5K to $8K range. So in reality, my friend
made out a lot better by not dealing with the Billionaire Boys and their "expert" advisers.

My friend put a pretty high reserve on the car. I guess he was hoping for lightning to strike. But I think the $90K's was a pretty strong
region to be in. And there were 3 people total playing in that range. My friend had over 1000 photos and pages of written detail he would
have supplied to ANY of the serious EBay bidders on the car if they asked. He had photos of EVERY inch of the car, much of it requested by the
3-4 experts who actually saw the car in person and demanded to see every detail. Those guys learned a lot on this car too by seeing features they didn't previously know existed on these cars. And my friend learned a few new things along the way too. While the car "didn't sell" on EBay, most of the serious parties contacted him after the sale. At least 4 dealers were interested in the car from all parts of the country.

The car has been fully paid for by wire transfer, picked up, and is on the way to the new owner who apparently wants to display it....probably in the original condition or slightly spruced up. I don't think he's necessarily going to get into full road-worthy condition. We'll see. Not likely a concours style resto is in the plans.

The car was anything but a "basket case." Essentially a rust-free body with all the original body panels, full mechanicals, complete interior, with rare original engine data plate and other factory markings, stampings, and paperwork to fully document the car. There may only be 2-4 like this in existence. It's important to many to begin with an all there, fully legitimate car.....not one that has had chassis swaps, etc. At least one of the interested bidders stated they could not believe such a car could still exist in 2022. They had long given up the thought that an original, un-restored, rare car like this could still be around and basically forgotten about since 1962. If this were a rare Mercedes, Bugatti, Ferrari, Ford GT, or some other similarly rare specimen, it would have brought $Millions in this "basket case" condition. As "just" a Packard....under $100K. Sort of a bargain. I think the current economic times aren't good for restoring concours examples....and no surprise than the billionaires opted out.

With the 2 1930's Packards now cleared out of the garage, this opens up access to another 20x20 ft room attached to it filled to the ceiling with car stuff. My friend in the past week has already found a mint condition 1933/34 Packard air intake with carb.....worth thousands. He expects to find more parts in that back room as it gets cleaned out. He mentioned to me that his Father-in-Law had supposedly put away a complete spare '34 Coupe Roadster "somewhere." And as of yet, it's not to be found. He's figuring a lot of the key parts from that car are in the back room. It will be interesting to see what else he finds. Until those other two Packards were sold ('34 CR and '39 Brunn V12) there was no way to get back there and move stuff out. Now he has the room in the garage to start the inventorying of what remains.
 
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69GTX

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I watched the last few minutes of the auction. The price was stuck in the $60Ks, only getting up to and over $90K in the last minute or so. The snipers were out.

No one in this group wanted to reveal their intentions too early and give others a chance to come back stronger. On Ebay I rarely bid with more than 6-8 seconds left so that only a pre-made snipe can respond to it. The bidding did jump to around $77K where the 3rd highest bidder was disposed of. Then the 2 bulls sniped at each other on the quick, seconds only run to $91K. There were about half a dozen people on the car at the $65K level. That seemed to be a semi-comfortable level for collectors and dealers. My friend early on turned down a $65K offer months ago from one East Coast dealer who looked at every inch of the car. And at that time they still hadn't found the original Califormia DMV paper work linking everything up into the early to mid-1950's.....matching original registration and plates to the car's Packard numbers And that guy still thought the car could be a possible fake or alteration......or so he said....and yet still offering $65K. More than likely, it was just dealer talk to try and pry the car loose for less money. It took a few months of searching through piles and piles of paper work to run across the key documents, original bill of sale for $100, etc. It was all there.
 
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