Shoot I'd love to have an e30 m3. They're just impossible to find and way to darn expensive!
Here is a tough one that's under heavy debate
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That's an unfair comment about RL. They have nothing to gain in suggesting a lighter grade of oil since they make the 10W-60 grade. They state from the outset that the BMW 10W-60 recommendation is controversial but they have chosen to step into the discussion and give an informed opinion based on their own first hand experience with the engine in question. I for one respect the company all the more for it.
I didn't say they were lying, just that they weren't particularly sticking their neck out. That's all.
They do have something to gain by suggesting a lighter oil, by the way. One of the ways they like to talk up their products is by saying they let you step down a grade and still get the same protection as with most other oils. What could be a clearer demonstration than suggesting 5w30 for an app that specs 10w-60?
But again, I'm not accusing them of dishonesty. I also agree that for a lot of E46 M3 owners, perhaps including the OP, Red Line 5w30 might well be just fine.
That's an unfair comment about RL. They have nothing to gain in suggesting a lighter grade of oil since they make the 10W-60 grade. They state from the outset that the BMW 10W-60 recommendation is controversial but they have chosen to step into the discussion and give an informed opinion based on their own first hand experience with the engine in question. I for one respect the company all the more for it.
I didn't say they were lying, just that they weren't particularly sticking their neck out. That's all.
They do have something to gain by suggesting a lighter oil, by the way. One of the ways they like to talk up their products is by saying they let you step down a grade and still get the same protection as with most other oils. What could be a clearer demonstration than suggesting 5w30 for an app that specs 10w-60?
But again, I'm not accusing them of dishonesty. I also agree that for a lot of E46 M3 owners, perhaps including the OP, Red Line 5w30 might well be just fine.
Originally Posted By: Hummell
Shoot I'd love to have an e30 m3. They're just impossible to find and way to darn expensive!
ETA 6-cyl. (The only "325" with a 2.7L") Can be had for ~$1000 to $2000, and have MORE TORQUE than 4-Banger M3
this is 1985, 1986 and 1987 if i remember right. 88 had Funky Taillights but even better engine
.. M3 pic:
M3s are Much more squared off, and expounded upon the "M-Technic" Package, as Mine had.
Shoot I'd love to have an e30 m3. They're just impossible to find and way to darn expensive!
ETA 6-cyl. (The only "325" with a 2.7L") Can be had for ~$1000 to $2000, and have MORE TORQUE than 4-Banger M3
.. M3 pic:
M3s are Much more squared off, and expounded upon the "M-Technic" Package, as Mine had.
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Originally Posted By: Hummell
Yeah, it's got a temperature guage. I've never seen the oil temp in the car get over 212...and it was only AT 212 for a minute or two. The car usually hangs just below 210.
That's nothing. You probably have a lot of flexibility in your oil choice.
Yeah, it's got a temperature guage. I've never seen the oil temp in the car get over 212...and it was only AT 212 for a minute or two. The car usually hangs just below 210.
That's nothing. You probably have a lot of flexibility in your oil choice.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Hummell
This is going to be a terribly noobish question, but how can I gauge the pressure at maximum revs?
You need an oil pressure gauge.
Tought he had one on an E46 M3, right on Dash
Unless you mean "Better" Oil pressure gauge
Originally Posted By: Hummell
This is going to be a terribly noobish question, but how can I gauge the pressure at maximum revs?
You need an oil pressure gauge.
Tought he had one on an E46 M3, right on Dash
Unless you mean "Better" Oil pressure gauge
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Does it have a pressure gauge? I thought it only had temp.
If its the "M" i think it does. I could be wrong but M cars get more than a 330i.
... Hummell?
Does it have a pressure gauge? I thought it only had temp.
If its the "M" i think it does. I could be wrong but M cars get more than a 330i.
... Hummell?
Originally Posted By: HomerJ5w40
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Does it have a pressure gauge? I thought it only had temp.
If its the "M" i think it does. I could be wrong but M cars get more than a 330i.
... Hummell?
No pressure...temp only
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Does it have a pressure gauge? I thought it only had temp.
If its the "M" i think it does. I could be wrong but M cars get more than a 330i.
... Hummell?
No pressure...temp only
Originally Posted By: Hummell
Originally Posted By: HomerJ5w40
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Does it have a pressure gauge? I thought it only had temp.
If its the "M" i think it does. I could be wrong but M cars get more than a 330i.
... Hummell?
No pressure...temp only
Hummell its not in the Digital Read-Out then?
Originally Posted By: HomerJ5w40
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Does it have a pressure gauge? I thought it only had temp.
If its the "M" i think it does. I could be wrong but M cars get more than a 330i.
... Hummell?
No pressure...temp only
Hummell its not in the Digital Read-Out then?
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I don't think so, Homer. I've never seen an oil pressure reading in the gauge cluster. I could be totally wrong...let me check.
Nope...doesn't have one.
Nope...doesn't have one.
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Hummell, as Homer suggested take a quick look at the oil pressure at maximum rev's when your red lining it through the gears sometime.
Since you've already established that the oil temp's don't get above 212F, then you'll want to know the oil max' oil pressure at that temp. One thing you'll notice (when the oil is at it's max' temp) is that the oil pressure will rise quickly to about 3,000 rpm and then continue to rise marginally as the rev's increase. You may find that the oil pressure peaks before red line which is fine. A basic lubrication rule of thumb is to maintain 10 psi per 1,000 rpm. Therefore at 8,500 rpm you want at least 85 psi. At 3,000 rpm you may already have something like 65 psi (way more than you need) but safety margin shrinks quickly as the rev's increase.
It's great that you have both oil pressure and temp' gauges as it provides you with all the tools you need to compare the operating viscosities of various oils and the condition of the oil your using as you drive.
When an oil is fresh make note of the oil pressure at a maximum oil temp you'll usually see at a given high rpm. As you rack up the mileage, if the oil pressure varies from what it was new (at the same temp and rpm of course) then you know the oil has either thicked or as is more likely the case thinned which means the viscosity has increased or dropped respectively.
Since you've already established that the oil temp's don't get above 212F, then you'll want to know the oil max' oil pressure at that temp. One thing you'll notice (when the oil is at it's max' temp) is that the oil pressure will rise quickly to about 3,000 rpm and then continue to rise marginally as the rev's increase. You may find that the oil pressure peaks before red line which is fine. A basic lubrication rule of thumb is to maintain 10 psi per 1,000 rpm. Therefore at 8,500 rpm you want at least 85 psi. At 3,000 rpm you may already have something like 65 psi (way more than you need) but safety margin shrinks quickly as the rev's increase.
It's great that you have both oil pressure and temp' gauges as it provides you with all the tools you need to compare the operating viscosities of various oils and the condition of the oil your using as you drive.
When an oil is fresh make note of the oil pressure at a maximum oil temp you'll usually see at a given high rpm. As you rack up the mileage, if the oil pressure varies from what it was new (at the same temp and rpm of course) then you know the oil has either thicked or as is more likely the case thinned which means the viscosity has increased or dropped respectively.
Thanks, Caterham. Unfortunately the e46 M3 doesn't have an oil pressure gauge on the instrument cluster...so it's difficult to note oil pressure and temperature synonymously, especially at redline.
Sorry to hear that.
BTW, how do you know what the oil temps vs the coolant temps?
BTW, how do you know what the oil temps vs the coolant temps?
There are two gauges on the cluster. One is for oil temp, and I thought the other was coolant temp...is it not? See the picture above.
If what I'm thinking is true, the coolant temp almost always stays dead center and doesn't fluctuate.
If what I'm thinking is true, the coolant temp almost always stays dead center and doesn't fluctuate.
A BMW Powertrain Engineer said if you drive the car very easy (IE 210F Oil Temps) then the car will likely be fine on 5w30 but then if you drive like that then it may not be the right car for you.
Bottom Line as long as you are not exceeding 260F Oil Temp I dont see the need for 10W-60. The 10W-60 was designed to allow the engine to survive at 300F at Open Track Events or During Sustained High Speeds / High RPM like the Autobahn.
PS you need to hook up a scan gauge so you can see more accurate temps and pressures if you cant program it to read out on the digital display.
Bottom Line as long as you are not exceeding 260F Oil Temp I dont see the need for 10W-60. The 10W-60 was designed to allow the engine to survive at 300F at Open Track Events or During Sustained High Speeds / High RPM like the Autobahn.
PS you need to hook up a scan gauge so you can see more accurate temps and pressures if you cant program it to read out on the digital display.
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That's an unfair comment about RL. They have nothing to gain in suggesting a lighter grade of oil since they make the 10W-60 grade. They state from the outset that the BMW 10W-60 recommendation is controversial but they have chosen to step into the discussion and give an informed opinion based on their own first hand experience with the engine in question. I for one respect the company all the more for it.
I didn't say they were lying, just that they weren't particularly sticking their neck out. That's all.
They do have something to gain by suggesting a lighter oil, by the way. One of the ways they like to talk up their products is by saying they let you step down a grade and still get the same protection as with most other oils. What could be a clearer demonstration than suggesting 5w30 for an app that specs 10w-60?
But again, I'm not accusing them of dishonesty. I also agree that for a lot of E46 M3 owners, perhaps including the OP, Red Line 5w30 might well be just fine.
There is technical reason why RL suggests you can frequently drop a grade when switching to their 5W-XX or heavier oils and it has nothing to do with a thin vs thick biase.
Their POE based oils have unusually high HTHS viscosities relative to their kinematic 100C vis spec's. Their HTHS vis spec's are more typical of a SAE grade higher.
What most motor oil (enthusiasts?) aren't aware of is that the operating viscosity in an engine correlates more closely with the HTHS vis than the 100C k'vis spec. This correlation is apparent at normal operating temperatures.
In other words, oils with similar HTHS viscosities tend to have the same oil pressure at operating temperature regardless of their 100C vis spec's.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That's an unfair comment about RL. They have nothing to gain in suggesting a lighter grade of oil since they make the 10W-60 grade. They state from the outset that the BMW 10W-60 recommendation is controversial but they have chosen to step into the discussion and give an informed opinion based on their own first hand experience with the engine in question. I for one respect the company all the more for it.
I didn't say they were lying, just that they weren't particularly sticking their neck out. That's all.
They do have something to gain by suggesting a lighter oil, by the way. One of the ways they like to talk up their products is by saying they let you step down a grade and still get the same protection as with most other oils. What could be a clearer demonstration than suggesting 5w30 for an app that specs 10w-60?
But again, I'm not accusing them of dishonesty. I also agree that for a lot of E46 M3 owners, perhaps including the OP, Red Line 5w30 might well be just fine.
There is technical reason why RL suggests you can frequently drop a grade when switching to their 5W-XX or heavier oils and it has nothing to do with a thin vs thick biase.
Their POE based oils have unusually high HTHS viscosities relative to their kinematic 100C vis spec's. Their HTHS vis spec's are more typical of a SAE grade higher.
What most motor oil (enthusiasts?) aren't aware of is that the operating viscosity in an engine correlates more closely with the HTHS vis than the 100C k'vis spec. This correlation is apparent at normal operating temperatures.
In other words, oils with similar HTHS viscosities tend to have the same oil pressure at operating temperature regardless of their 100C vis spec's.
Originally Posted By: Gene K
A BMW Powertrain Engineer said if you drive the car very easy (IE 210F Oil Temps) then the car will likely be fine on 5w30 but then if you drive like that then it may not be the right car for you.
Bottom Line as long as you are not exceeding 260F Oil Temp I dont see the need for 10W-60. The 10W-60 was designed to allow the engine to survive at 300F at Open Track Events or During Sustained High Speeds / High RPM like the Autobahn.
PS you need to hook up a scan gauge so you can see more accurate temps and pressures if you cant program it to read out on the digital display.
Man, I drive this car pretty hard for a daily driver. I wouldn't say the M3's not for me...as far as I can tell, you'd have to have the car on a track to reach those temperature's in this car (at least if you're running the Scheaffer's 9000 5w-50). If you're not on a track and you're operating at those temps, you're very close to going to jail because getting the oil temp that high as a daily driver is flat out dangerous in terms of speed and acceleration. The car is a beast. I wouldn't say it's not for me because I'm not redlining the vehicle in every gear all the time! That's unsafe even by my standards (I love to go fast) not to mention darn near impossible around towns and highways in the US without causing an accident.
The M3 is certainly the car for me and to tell you the truth, I wouldn't own any OTHER car. This car fits me like a glove.
Was the powertrain engineer saying that m3's should only be owned by track junkies? Seems like a bad marketing ploy.
A BMW Powertrain Engineer said if you drive the car very easy (IE 210F Oil Temps) then the car will likely be fine on 5w30 but then if you drive like that then it may not be the right car for you.
Bottom Line as long as you are not exceeding 260F Oil Temp I dont see the need for 10W-60. The 10W-60 was designed to allow the engine to survive at 300F at Open Track Events or During Sustained High Speeds / High RPM like the Autobahn.
PS you need to hook up a scan gauge so you can see more accurate temps and pressures if you cant program it to read out on the digital display.
Man, I drive this car pretty hard for a daily driver. I wouldn't say the M3's not for me...as far as I can tell, you'd have to have the car on a track to reach those temperature's in this car (at least if you're running the Scheaffer's 9000 5w-50). If you're not on a track and you're operating at those temps, you're very close to going to jail because getting the oil temp that high as a daily driver is flat out dangerous in terms of speed and acceleration. The car is a beast. I wouldn't say it's not for me because I'm not redlining the vehicle in every gear all the time! That's unsafe even by my standards (I love to go fast) not to mention darn near impossible around towns and highways in the US without causing an accident.
The M3 is certainly the car for me and to tell you the truth, I wouldn't own any OTHER car. This car fits me like a glove.
Was the powertrain engineer saying that m3's should only be owned by track junkies? Seems like a bad marketing ploy.
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That's an unfair comment about RL. They have nothing to gain in suggesting a lighter grade of oil since they make the 10W-60 grade. They state from the outset that the BMW 10W-60 recommendation is controversial but they have chosen to step into the discussion and give an informed opinion based on their own first hand experience with the engine in question. I for one respect the company all the more for it.
I didn't say they were lying, just that they weren't particularly sticking their neck out. That's all.
They do have something to gain by suggesting a lighter oil, by the way. One of the ways they like to talk up their products is by saying they let you step down a grade and still get the same protection as with most other oils. What could be a clearer demonstration than suggesting 5w30 for an app that specs 10w-60?
But again, I'm not accusing them of dishonesty. I also agree that for a lot of E46 M3 owners, perhaps including the OP, Red Line 5w30 might well be just fine.
There is technical reason why RL suggests you can frequently drop a grade when switching to their 5W-XX or heavier oils and it has nothing to do with a thin vs thick biase.
Their POE based oils have unusually high HTHS viscosities relative to their kinematic 100C vis spec's. Their HTHS vis spec's are more typical of a SAE grade higher.
What most motor oil (enthusiasts?) aren't aware of is that the operating viscosity in an engine correlates more closely with the HTHS vis than the 100C k'vis spec. This correlation is apparent at normal operating temperatures.
In other words, oils with similar HTHS viscosities tend to have the same oil pressure at operating temperature regardless of their 100C vis spec's.
Great info. Where can I compare the HTHS viscosities of the Castrol TWS 10w-60 and the Scheaffer Supreme 9000 5w-50?
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That's an unfair comment about RL. They have nothing to gain in suggesting a lighter grade of oil since they make the 10W-60 grade. They state from the outset that the BMW 10W-60 recommendation is controversial but they have chosen to step into the discussion and give an informed opinion based on their own first hand experience with the engine in question. I for one respect the company all the more for it.
I didn't say they were lying, just that they weren't particularly sticking their neck out. That's all.
They do have something to gain by suggesting a lighter oil, by the way. One of the ways they like to talk up their products is by saying they let you step down a grade and still get the same protection as with most other oils. What could be a clearer demonstration than suggesting 5w30 for an app that specs 10w-60?
But again, I'm not accusing them of dishonesty. I also agree that for a lot of E46 M3 owners, perhaps including the OP, Red Line 5w30 might well be just fine.
There is technical reason why RL suggests you can frequently drop a grade when switching to their 5W-XX or heavier oils and it has nothing to do with a thin vs thick biase.
Their POE based oils have unusually high HTHS viscosities relative to their kinematic 100C vis spec's. Their HTHS vis spec's are more typical of a SAE grade higher.
What most motor oil (enthusiasts?) aren't aware of is that the operating viscosity in an engine correlates more closely with the HTHS vis than the 100C k'vis spec. This correlation is apparent at normal operating temperatures.
In other words, oils with similar HTHS viscosities tend to have the same oil pressure at operating temperature regardless of their 100C vis spec's.
Great info. Where can I compare the HTHS viscosities of the Castrol TWS 10w-60 and the Scheaffer Supreme 9000 5w-50?
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