Help Understanding Product Information Test Data

[Valueline]

I am new to researching oil. When reading the test data I find that I don't really understand the significance of these numbers, especially when attempting to compare two oils in an 'apples to apples' fashion. Much of the data seems very similar when you look at brands of oil side by side. Is there one piece of data in these reports that may be more indicative or more helpful when trying to determine which oil is right for you? Is it the VI, Total Base Number, specific gravity or do these numbers fall in a certain range due to industry standards?

I know it may be splitting hairs but I'm just looking for some help when you trying to decide between two or three quality products.

 

[901Memphis]

Which products are you comparing? Lots of things to look for you should run while you still have a chance....

Some things to look for.

D5800 NOACK volatility mass % loss, 1 hr @250°C = The lower the better

D2270 Viscosity Index = The higher the better

D2896 TBN mg KOH/g = Generally the higher the better, with exceptions.

D445 Viscosity @ 100° C cSt = important for determining if you want a thick 20 or thin 30 etc. For example the 30 weight range is from 9.3 to 12.5 , so getting an oil with a D445 Viscosity @ 100° C cSt @ 9.3 is considered the thick end of 20 weight.




EDIT:

Link to synthetics 5w30 roundup if you don't have it.

http://pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html

 

[Valueline]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Which products are you comparing? Lots of things to look for you should run while you still have a chance....

Some things to look for.

D5800 NOACK volatility mass % loss, 1 hr @250°C = The lower the better

D2270 Viscosity Index = The higher the better

D2896 TBN mg KOH/g = Generally the higher the better, with exceptions.

D445 Viscosity @ 100° C cSt = important for determining if you want a thick 20 or thin 30 etc. For example the 30 weight range is from 9.3 to 12.5 , so getting an oil with a D445 Viscosity @ 100° C cSt @ 9.3 is considered the thick end of 20 weight.




EDIT:

Link to synthetics 5w30 roundup if you don't have it.

http://pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html


Basically I have been comparing M1 products to Valvoline SynPower and Maxlife products for my vehicles, 5w20 and 5w30, and recently started looking whether to make the switch to 0w20/0w30 respectively. Then, with help from the good people on this Forum, Pennzoil Platinum was also recommended.

I understand that, for instance, higher VI is better, but my next question would be by what margin? For example, M1 5w20 VI is 160, Valvoline SynPower VI is 161. Seems negligible. But then PP VI is 169. A bit more significant. Is this a meaningful difference or still in the ballpark? I imagine from what I have read here that this doesn't necessarily mean that PP is the "best oil". Oh, the questions I have!

 

[901Memphis]

M1 > Synpower due to better cold flow properties. The D5293 Viscosity @-30° C mPa , the M1 is lower. I don't have the other specs handy but i think the M1 is better in other cold crank specs.

A high VI oil would be Toyota 0w20 which is 200+. Have you heard of the Caterham blend? a 60/40 (3/2 quart) mix of Mobil 1 API SM 0w40 and Toyota API SN 0w20 to get a super high VI 0w30?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2555795

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3024542


If you are using synthetic for short intervals though you are wasting money. I will quote Dnewton from his sig and you can find some of his posts very informative.

Conventionasl vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=16959

 

[Valueline]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
M1 > Synpower due to better cold flow properties. The D5293 Viscosity @-30° C mPa , the M1 is lower. I don't have the other specs handy but i think the M1 is better in other cold crank specs.

A high VI oil would be Toyota 0w20 which is 200+. Have you heard of the Caterham blend? a 60/40 (3/2 quart) mix of Mobil 1 API SM 0w40 and Toyota API SN 0w20 to get a super high VI 0w30?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2555795

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3024542


If you are using synthetic for short intervals though you are wasting money. I will quote Dnewton from his sig and you can find some of his posts very informative.

Conventionasl vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=16959




Thanks for explaining the Viscosity @ 100C, my next question was going to be about how to interpret those numbers in if there was a range to look for.

As for my OCIs, I think I'm in the middle. I have been using M1 on a 5000 mile OCI for my Honda. Honda owners manual recommends 10K miles, 5K severe OCI on conventional oil. The Buick I don't use very often so I have been changing it every 6 months or so as I don't put much mileage on it. Also using M1. When I started doing my own oil changes, I went on the recommendation of a friend and used M1 with a Fram filter. Then when I learned of Fram being called the OCOD I started using Napa Gold. Although on my last pour I used a Purolater PureOne out of convenience and based on the comments Ive seen posted on BITOG. It was my investigation into the Fram filter that led me here and left me at the crossroads of what oil and filter to use moving forward for my vehicles. I was considering using a 0w20 for the Honda and a 5w30 high mileage oil for my Buick. My intention was to start sending samples for UOA to help me determine my OCI.

 

[901Memphis]

You could probably get away with 7,500 and no UOA, but i wouldn't push much further on the Honda. If your car has been back spec'd to 0w20 or 5w20 go ahead and take advantage of it and run the 0w20.

As far as the Buick goes, high mileage 5w30 is a good idea. Mobil 1 5w30 HM is one of their best products, i use it myself in my Taurus and will probably use it in my buick century too. Don't let time bother you, i would let it go a year minimum maybe 2 years with low miles.

The key to low miles, long time is to make sure to get it up on the highway once every couple of months to get the oil up to temperature. Maybe 10-15 miles of cruising at freeway speed after the coolant is up to temperature fully.

Fram filters have gotten a bad rap, but the Tough Guard and Fram Ultras are great filters. Fram Ultras are made completely different than the Orange can, Tough Guard, and High mielage filter, they are one of the best extended interval full synthetic filters on the market, along with Amsoil, Wix XP, Purolator Synthetic and Royal Purple.

If your doing low miles on the Buick might as well save some money and grab the AC Delco filter or Purolator Classic.

The PureOne filters are pretty good too.

Just remember that a UOA is a tool for extending your oil change intervals, don't just do it for giggles and ignore the advice, otherwise your wasting money. I would be willing to bet with a high TBN synthetic you could get close to 10k outa the Honda per oil change, with the 7,500 mile mark being what i would consider "safe" on synthetic, even under some severe driving. If your doing that 7,500 in a year or less your probably fine.

For the Honda if you can get to a Toyota dealer i would recommend the Toyota 0w20. You can buy it in quarts or even bring empty jugs and buy it in your own container i hear. Mobil 1 AFE 0w20 is also an excellent choice, but its not nearly as high a VI oil as TGMO 0w20.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Which products are you comparing? Lots of things to look for you should run while you still have a chance....

Some things to look for.

D5800 NOACK volatility mass % loss, 1 hr @250°C = The lower the better

D2270 Viscosity Index = The higher the better

D2896 TBN mg KOH/g = Generally the higher the better, with exceptions.

D445 Viscosity @ 100° C cSt = important for determining if you want a thick 20 or thin 30 etc. For example the 30 weight range is from 9.3 to 12.5 , so getting an oil with a D445 Viscosity @ 100° C cSt @ 9.3 is considered the thick end of 20 weight.

Yes a lower NOACK is better but does it mean a 14% oil will have higher oil consumption than a 9% oil? Not in most normal usage so it really isn't that important.

A high Viscosity Index is generally better as long it is retained in service. And one should not consider an oil's VI without also knowing it's HTHSV. Why? Because the greater the VI difference, the lighter the higher VI oil will be, not only as one would expect on start-up but also at normal operating temp's for a given HTHSV.
For example, TGMO 0W-20 (VI 216) is much lighter on start-up than PYB 5W-20 (VI 150) but it is also somewhat lighter at normal operating temp's (say 90C) although both oils gave the same 2.6cP HTHSV. So if you want to maintain the normal operating viscosity with TGMO as you would have with PYB you'll have to increase it's HTHSV to about 2.7cP. How? One easy way is add a pint of M1 0W-40 . You'll lower the VI of the TGMO to about 210 but it will still be much lighter than PBY 5W-20 on start-up, have the same normal operating viscosity with the added benefit of a higher HTHSV rating for the parts of an engine that get very hot.

A higher TBN is only important if you want to maximize you oil change interval.

HTHSV is much more important than the inaccurate KV100 spec' in predicting how thick an oil will be at operating temp's in conjunction with an oil's VI.

Valueline, it's one thing to learn academically what the spec's of a motor oil are such as the various aspects of an oil's viscosity. But if you really want to know first hand in your own car with the way you operate it, is to install oil pressure and temperature gauges.
Otherwise they are just abstract numbers for the most part.

 

[Shannow]

^ I nearly fully agree with the above post

 

[Valueline]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
You could probably get away with 7,500 and no UOA, but i wouldn't push much further on the Honda. If your car has been back spec'd to 0w20 or 5w20 go ahead and take advantage of it and run the 0w20.

As far as the Buick goes, high mileage 5w30 is a good idea. Mobil 1 5w30 HM is one of their best products, i use it myself in my Taurus and will probably use it in my buick century too. Don't let time bother you, i would let it go a year minimum maybe 2 years with low miles.

The key to low miles, long time is to make sure to get it up on the highway once every couple of months to get the oil up to temperature. Maybe 10-15 miles of cruising at freeway speed after the coolant is up to temperature fully.

Fram filters have gotten a bad rap, but the Tough Guard and Fram Ultras are great filters. Fram Ultras are made completely different than the Orange can, Tough Guard, and High mielage filter, they are one of the best extended interval full synthetic filters on the market, along with Amsoil, Wix XP, Purolator Synthetic and Royal Purple.

If your doing low miles on the Buick might as well save some money and grab the AC Delco filter or Purolator Classic.

The PureOne filters are pretty good too.

Just remember that a UOA is a tool for extending your oil change intervals, don't just do it for giggles and ignore the advice, otherwise your wasting money. I would be willing to bet with a high TBN synthetic you could get close to 10k outa the Honda per oil change, with the 7,500 mile mark being what i would consider "safe" on synthetic, even under some severe driving. If your doing that 7,500 in a year or less your probably fine.

For the Honda if you can get to a Toyota dealer i would recommend the Toyota 0w20. You can buy it in quarts or even bring empty jugs and buy it in your own container i hear. Mobil 1 AFE 0w20 is also an excellent choice, but its not nearly as high a VI oil as TGMO 0w20.



Honda has said that 0w20 is 'acceptable' for my 2004 Accord. Is there a difference between the terms recommended and acceptable or is the difference in terms just because its back speced? My local Honda service center sells 0w20 for $7.60/qt and its a full synt as opposed to the synth blend if you go in for an oil change. I noticed you have product data for TGMO, would you happen to know where I can find info on Honda oil?

As for the Buick I went a year on M1 long ago and she did fine. But when I say that out loud I get funny looks. I have some issues with seepage which is why I was looking to the high mileage oils. I was considering M1HM or MaxLife. I noticed M1 VI only about 150. I often read people liking the add packs for one over another but I don't understand how to compare those of M1 and MaxLife.

As for UOA, it sounds interesting to compare differnt kinds of oil and filter combinations but I don't have that kind if money. I was considering doing it once for each vehicle to get a base line and see if there are any underlying problems and go from there.

One last thought about the use of synthetic oils and the debate over whether or not I need it in relation to my oci. No art of my motivation to use a higher quality oil, particularly in my Honda, which has 125k miles, is a mechanic that warned me about a sludge problem with vtech engines. He advised to use a hm oil at a 3k oci. I don't think sludge should be a problem considering I've used M1 since I got the car with 68k on it. I've never gone longer the 6k on an oci. I don't take what he says as written in stone but honestly, using syn gives me some peace of mind. Do you know anything about this issues with the vtech. I just want to makes sure I'm on the right track.

 

[CATERHAM]

The difference between recommended and acceptable is largely semantics. In other words, 5W-20 is what was recommended before Honda even had a 0W-20 to offer but now that they do, 0W-20 is preferably for older engine still in good condition.

$7.60/qt seems a little steep for a rather average 0W-20.
There are a few VOA/UOAs on the CoP made 0W-20 that you can look up if you, but I'd check out the price of TGMO 0W-20 which is better and certainly no more expensive than that.

You will not have a sludge issue with any API oil with a 3,000 mile OCI and 6,000 miles is no problem for any synthetic oil.

 

[Valueline]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Which products are you comparing? Lots of things to look for you should run while you still have a chance....

Some things to look for.

D5800 NOACK volatility mass % loss, 1 hr @250°C = The lower the better

D2270 Viscosity Index = The higher the better

D2896 TBN mg KOH/g = Generally the higher the better, with exceptions.

D445 Viscosity @ 100° C cSt = important for determining if you want a thick 20 or thin 30 etc. For example the 30 weight range is from 9.3 to 12.5 , so getting an oil with a D445 Viscosity @ 100° C cSt @ 9.3 is considered the thick end of 20 weight.

Yes a lower NOACK is better but does it mean a 14% oil will have higher oil consumption than a 9% oil? Not in most normal usage so it really isn't that important.

A high Viscosity Index is generally better as long it is retained in service. And one should not consider an oil's VI without also knowing it's HTHSV. Why? Because the greater the VI difference, the lighter the higher VI oil will be, not only as one would expect on start-up but also at normal operating temp's for a given HTHSV.
For example, TGMO 0W-20 (VI 216) is much lighter on start-up than PYB 5W-20 (VI 150) but it is also somewhat lighter at normal operating temp's (say 90C) although both oils gave the same 2.6cP HTHSV. So if you want to maintain the normal operating viscosity with TGMO as you would have with PYB you'll have to increase it's HTHSV to about 2.7cP. How? One easy way is add a pint of M1 0W-40 . You'll lower the VI of the TGMO to about 210 but it will still be much lighter than PBY 5W-20 on start-up, have the same normal operating viscosity with the added benefit of a higher HTHSV rating for the parts of an engine that get very hot.

A higher TBN is only important if you want to maximize you oil change interval.

HTHSV is much more important than the inaccurate KV100 spec' in predicting how thick an oil will be at operating temp's in conjunction with an oil's VI.

Valueline, it's one thing to learn academically what the spec's of a motor oil are such as the various aspects of an oil's viscosity. But if you really want to know first hand in your own car with the way you operate it, is to install oil pressure and temperature gauges.
Otherwise they are just abstract numbers for the most part.
I am considering installing temp and pressure gauges. Any particular brands that are more reliable the others? What kind of determinations can I make with these gauges relative to my driving type. I imagine I would notice better flow when using a thinner oil or when using different filters and that I might see certain types of oil reach operating temp faster then others.

 

[Valueline]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The difference between recommended and acceptable is largely semantics. In other words, 5W-20 is what was recommended before Honda even had a 0W-20 to offer but now that they do, 0W-20 is preferably for older engine still in good condition.

$7.60/qt seems a little steep for a rather average 0W-20.
There are a few VOA/UOAs on the CoP made 0W-20 that you can look up if you, but I'd check out the price of TGMO 0W-20 which is better and certainly no more expensive than that.

You will not have a sludge issue with any API oil with a 3,000 mile OCI and 6,000 miles is no problem for any synthetic oil.


Toyota in my area is selling TGMO 0w20 full synthetic for $7.17 per quart.