The one question I have about Havoline is that its Viscosity Index number is usually a little lower than that of Pennzoil or Castrol. Do the other Havoline numbers, such as Flash Point, make up for that or is the Viscosity Index number not that important??
Havoline Viscosity Index
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Well, it's my understanding that when oils have very high viscosity index with a lower quality basestock, they are using viscosity index improvers to achieve that. Both Mobil 1 0w-40 and any 0w30 usually have high VI. But under high stress conditions, it can cause and oil to shear down. If you look at RL, the VI is not that impressive. RL choses to go for maximum shear stability. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
I wouldn't compare the VI of synth's to that of dino's but it explanation may be the case. More grp3 in the mix like we're seeing in 5w20 conventionals can get the VI up without the improvers. In the case of havoline, it seems to shear less than other dino's so it's probably a combo of good bsae stock and just enough improvers to meet spec. Oils tend to find there true visc. in 1 or 2k mi anyway so I like this approach.
Dunno whether your question was intended to show some significant coincidences, but it did. As buster pointed out, VIIs can be added to lower quality base stocks to boost a finished oil's listed VI, but perhaps at the cost of shearing down more rapidly and leaving oxidation products to potentially generate varnish and sludge. Complicating the picture are additional points such as the quality of the VIIs and the amount of detergent/dispersants in the mix to prevent oxidation products from grouping together and causing mischief. Ignoring those factors for a moment, your mention of flash point is not only very interesting, but perhaps a key point - better base stocks such as Group II+ and Group III (and, of course Group IV PAOs) have higher flash points than Group II and definitely better than Group I base oils. They're inherently more resistant to oxidation. By simple deduction, if Havoline shows a good flash point, my take is that the odds favor a decent base oil that probably needs lower amounts of VIIs, too. As conventionals go, I don't believe anyone on this forum would argue that Havoline isn't right up there with the best available. Havoline in the indicated viscosity grade for your car and climate, and 3,000-5,000 mile oil and filter change intervals, would be a tough and cheap combination to beat. I've run Havoline and its "twin" (Chevron Supreme) 10w30 "SL" in my Hyundai V-6 for over 15,000 miles since new, and the top end is clean as a whistle. I'm just about out and will use TropArtic syn-blend here on out, but I have no complaints about the Havoline and Chevron Supreme. (TropArtic's got some big shoes to fill.)
YOU FELLOWS ARE GREAT! THANKS VERY MUCH FOR THIS GOOD INFORMATION!
If anyone is inclined to make an intelligent argument regarding the performance of Havoline Grp II+ vs. TropArtic Grp II/III, I'd certainly be interested in viewing the talking points.
IMHO, TropArtic generates alot of interest on this forum due to it's status as a new GF-4 style formulation, designed to combat heat & oxidation using base oil stocks vs. additives.
BTW, I think RayH did an excellent job of answering the original question for the author of this thread.
IMHO, TropArtic generates alot of interest on this forum due to it's status as a new GF-4 style formulation, designed to combat heat & oxidation using base oil stocks vs. additives.
BTW, I think RayH did an excellent job of answering the original question for the author of this thread.
Triple_Se7en
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Just saying it's a base stock doesn't mean Trop Artic has the same base stock as Motorcraft... or even to the level of Kendall.
There are not only different groups... there's levels to each group. You can see it in the price structure for each Conoco oil brand.
Although it's only my opinion, I feel
Motorcraft works well to 5K
Kendall works well to 4K
Trop Artic works well to 3K.
Don't ever think Conoco is doing you a favor & selling you Motorcraft oil in that Trop Artic bottle so cheap. That's not how they stay in business. Ford calls for different specs than what's in Trop Artic. Just identifying that there is some group 2-3 in that oil means little. There are groups inside of those groups.
I'm not here to knock any oil. I would use Trop Artic oils -- Citgo oils -- Exxon oils in 3K OCIs on my post 150K vehicles. I just want to know why someone thinks any of these are better than the Havoline they were using. I just don't understand why people abandon their oil success stories.
I've read countless posts where "abandoning oils were later regretted when consumption issues grew with another oil and never got cured after switching back to WHAT ORIGINALLY WORKED WONDERFULLY.
Personally, I would not discard something that worked over 30 cents. Not only a discard.... it's a gamble the new brand will work anywhere near as well. Why roll the dice when you don't have to. If I can get my vehicles to stay clean, run great, be quiet & have no consumption issues... I'd be crazy to change anything.
[ August 30, 2005, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Triple_Se7en ]
There are not only different groups... there's levels to each group. You can see it in the price structure for each Conoco oil brand.
Although it's only my opinion, I feel
Motorcraft works well to 5K
Kendall works well to 4K
Trop Artic works well to 3K.
Don't ever think Conoco is doing you a favor & selling you Motorcraft oil in that Trop Artic bottle so cheap. That's not how they stay in business. Ford calls for different specs than what's in Trop Artic. Just identifying that there is some group 2-3 in that oil means little. There are groups inside of those groups.
I'm not here to knock any oil. I would use Trop Artic oils -- Citgo oils -- Exxon oils in 3K OCIs on my post 150K vehicles. I just want to know why someone thinks any of these are better than the Havoline they were using. I just don't understand why people abandon their oil success stories.
I've read countless posts where "abandoning oils were later regretted when consumption issues grew with another oil and never got cured after switching back to WHAT ORIGINALLY WORKED WONDERFULLY.
Personally, I would not discard something that worked over 30 cents. Not only a discard.... it's a gamble the new brand will work anywhere near as well. Why roll the dice when you don't have to. If I can get my vehicles to stay clean, run great, be quiet & have no consumption issues... I'd be crazy to change anything.
[ August 30, 2005, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Triple_Se7en ]
I wouldn't put too much faith in oil blender's published specs. I measured Havoline 5w-20 VI as 160 vs the advertised spec of 148.
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
Quote:
Dunno whether your question was intended to show some significant coincidences, but it did. As buster pointed out, VIIs can be added to lower quality base stocks to boost a finished oil's listed VI, but perhaps at the cost of shearing down more rapidly and leaving oxidation products to potentially generate varnish and sludge. Complicating the picture are additional points such as the quality of the VIIs and the amount of detergent/dispersants in the mix to prevent oxidation products from grouping together and causing mischief. Ignoring those factors for a moment, your mention of flash point is not only very interesting, but perhaps a key point - better base stocks such as Group II+ and Group III (and, of course Group IV PAOs) have higher flash points than Group II and definitely better than Group I base oils. They're inherently more resistant to oxidation. By simple deduction, if Havoline shows a good flash point, my take is that the odds favor a decent base oil that probably needs lower amounts of VIIs, too. As conventionals go, I don't believe anyone on this forum would argue that Havoline isn't right up there with the best available. Havoline in the indicated viscosity grade for your car and climate, and 3,000-5,000 mile oil and filter change intervals, would be a tough and cheap combination to beat. I've run Havoline and its "twin" (Chevron Supreme) 10w30 "SL" in my Hyundai V-6 for over 15,000 miles since new, and the top end is clean as a whistle. I'm just about out and will use TropArtic syn-blend here on out, but I have no complaints about the Havoline and Chevron Supreme. (TropArtic's got some big shoes to fill.)
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All this good informastion & you're switching brands over 30 cents per quart difference with two economy-priced products? Please... tell us what went wrong with Havoline?
What am I missing here?
Dunno whether your question was intended to show some significant coincidences, but it did. As buster pointed out, VIIs can be added to lower quality base stocks to boost a finished oil's listed VI, but perhaps at the cost of shearing down more rapidly and leaving oxidation products to potentially generate varnish and sludge. Complicating the picture are additional points such as the quality of the VIIs and the amount of detergent/dispersants in the mix to prevent oxidation products from grouping together and causing mischief. Ignoring those factors for a moment, your mention of flash point is not only very interesting, but perhaps a key point - better base stocks such as Group II+ and Group III (and, of course Group IV PAOs) have higher flash points than Group II and definitely better than Group I base oils. They're inherently more resistant to oxidation. By simple deduction, if Havoline shows a good flash point, my take is that the odds favor a decent base oil that probably needs lower amounts of VIIs, too. As conventionals go, I don't believe anyone on this forum would argue that Havoline isn't right up there with the best available. Havoline in the indicated viscosity grade for your car and climate, and 3,000-5,000 mile oil and filter change intervals, would be a tough and cheap combination to beat. I've run Havoline and its "twin" (Chevron Supreme) 10w30 "SL" in my Hyundai V-6 for over 15,000 miles since new, and the top end is clean as a whistle. I'm just about out and will use TropArtic syn-blend here on out, but I have no complaints about the Havoline and Chevron Supreme. (TropArtic's got some big shoes to fill.)
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All this good informastion & you're switching brands over 30 cents per quart difference with two economy-priced products? Please... tell us what went wrong with Havoline?
Let's just say I'm more confident in my opinions than you're pessimistic in yours.
"They're inherently more resistant to oxidation."
Actually GPII, GPIII and PAO are not that much better at resisiting oxidation WITH out a good AO added. Seems that in hydrotreating a lot of "natural" anti oxidants are taken out.
PAO is the better of the three but it too needs a AO BOOST.
But with inhibitors in the ASTM D-943 oxidation test
GPI hours to fail about 2,500
GPII hours to fail about 10,000
GPIII and PAO hours to fail 10,000+
bruce
Actually GPII, GPIII and PAO are not that much better at resisiting oxidation WITH out a good AO added. Seems that in hydrotreating a lot of "natural" anti oxidants are taken out.
PAO is the better of the three but it too needs a AO BOOST.
But with inhibitors in the ASTM D-943 oxidation test
GPI hours to fail about 2,500
GPII hours to fail about 10,000
GPIII and PAO hours to fail 10,000+
bruce
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
I didn't ask you to find another forum Ray. I simply asked that you take those two adjectives you used the other day to another forum.quote:
Originally posted by Ray H:
Let's just say I'm more confident in my opinions than you're pessimistic in yours.(Come to think of it, why would you care, anyway? Wasn't it you who publically advised me to go someplace else to post earlier this week?)
You are free to choose any oil you like. Nobody here is trying to deprive you of that.
I would consider the following links as good, solid references when discussing the above issues:
Lube Reports Article on ConocoPhillips Synthetic Blends
Ford 5W-20/5w30 Motor Oil Specifications
API Base Oil Classifications
As far as Motorcraft & TropArtic being the same formulation, we know the base oils are ConocoPhillips II/III blends and UOA/VOA reports display similar add packs. Let's see the info that indicates these oils are not the same basic formulation.
Ford's specs for 5W-20 is WSS-M2C930-A and the 5w30 spec is WSS-M2C929A. All the ConocoPhillips synthetic blends meet this spec, same as Motorcraft.
API base oils run Group I thru Group VI. The "+" designation is used to designate high VI within a group. To the best of my knowledge, no "groups inside of groups".
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