group I base stocks and varnish

[electrolover]

I was talking to a maintenance man who works on stationary turbines and he was telling me how group Is are better at holding varnish in suspension because of polarity.
I found it very interesting, because as we all know varnish removal is pretty tough sometimes even with synthetics.
I have been running synthetics for a while now trying to remove varnish and the results are lacking. Am I going about it all wrong? Should I be using a group I? Or maybe mixing group I in for a carrier?

Are there any group I oils left? Would a sae 30 fit the bill?

Any comments would be appreciated!

 

[Quattro Pete]

I'm not sure if polarity is the answer, but if you want high polarity - group V (ester) bases have very high polarity and are good solvents for additives.

Group I bases have a fairly low flash point, so I'd be concerned that using them may create significant deposits on its own.

Also, holding varnish in suspension and removing an already deposited varnish isn't exactly the same thing. I'd venture to guess that removing an already deposited varnish may be hard to do, even if an oil has the ability to hold varnish in suspension.

 

[JHZR2]

Yeah, lots of applications with big sumps use group I R&O oils. Gas turbines for power plants are a prime example.

I recall once talking to someone who dealt a lot with Delvac 1300, and they stated that 1300 used a small amount of Grp I in their formulation to help solubilize some deposits.

Of course for small sumps with high temperatures, the poor oxidation resistance and other aspects come into play.

 

[electrolover]

Thats interesting.
I haven't tryed a HDEO yet like delvac.

So what group would delo sae 30 fall under as far as base stocks go?

 

[skyship]

If the add pack of a full synthetic fails then sludge forms slightly faster than it will with a basic conventional oil.
Conventional oils are only more prone to form varnish than full synthetics if over heated.
If you use a solvent flush with a split turbo shaft oil seal on an old engine it can fall out, mostly because the only thing holding it in place was the varnish. OEM seals don't fall out, but cheap far Eastern ones used in some recon turbos do and it only seems to happen at near full power. If it happens to a TDI the result can be a full runaway with the engine sucking in oil and over revving until it blows up. Such old turbos are nearly always leaking a lot of oil before they fail.
If your TDI runs away don't swtich off the keys, just jam it into gear and stall it.

 

[fdcg27]

Interesting point on the TDI, skyship.
Have you ever seen this happen or the results?
Turning the key switch off would have no effect in this situation, so popping the clutch in gear would be the only available resort.
I can see how it might happen, and I have heard of diesel runaways from experienced techs.
One told me that the only way he got one diesel in a runaway situation in a heavy fork truck to quit was to jam a rolled up service manual into the air intake, more than half of which got sucked into the intake before the engine quit.

 

[Donald]

I was under the impression that a runaway diesel engine was burning diesel from its injectors in addition to the engine oil. Thus shutting down the fuel will handle it?

 

[electrolover]

Originally Posted By: skyship
If the add pack of a full synthetic fails then sludge forms slightly faster than it will with a basic conventional oil.
Conventional oils are only more prone to form varnish than full synthetics if over heated.
If you use a solvent flush with a split turbo shaft oil seal on an old engine it can fall out, mostly because the only thing holding it in place was the varnish. OEM seals don't fall out, but cheap far Eastern ones used in some recon turbos do and it only seems to happen at near full power. If it happens to a TDI the result can be a full runaway with the engine sucking in oil and over revving until it blows up. Such old turbos are nearly always leaking a lot of oil before they fail.
If your TDI runs away don't swtich off the keys, just jam it into gear and stall it.



Like none of that has anything to do with basestocks and polarity or varnish solubility.
But thanks anyway.

Complete word vomit.

 

[fdcg27]

My understanding is that a diesel will run away on pretty much anything that it can inhale that burns.
I could be wrong, though.
Shutting the key switch off should cut the flow of fuel from the injection pump.
A diesel will run on very little fuel, since it can sustain very lean mixtures, but you already knew that.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Donald
I was under the impression that a runaway diesel engine was burning diesel from its injectors in addition to the engine oil. Thus shutting down the fuel will handle it?


No, it just runs hapily on engine oil sucked in from the turbo and because this happens at high speed turning off the ignition switch is bad news because it locks up the steering. Taking your foot off the accelerator kills most of the the fuel flow but to stop the over rev you have to slam it into gear asap. Stopping the car, lifting the bonnet and blocking the air intake takes far too long, the engine will already be damaged and because it often cooks off the coolant with a big bang you should not try doing that.
There are some good clips on You tube but because older TDI's are rare in the US I think most clips are from the EU. The white smoke is awesome, although I have never seen one first hand, although I did see a bus catch fire from a blown turbo once.
For some odd reason to do with the type of turbo it seems not to happen to trucks just diesel cars.

 

[electrolover]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: Donald
I was under the impression that a runaway diesel engine was burning diesel from its injectors in addition to the engine oil. Thus shutting down the fuel will handle it?


No, it just runs hapily on engine oil sucked in from the turbo and because this happens at high speed turning off the ignition switch is bad news because it locks up the steering. Taking your foot off the accelerator kills most of the the fuel flow but to stop the over rev you have to slam it into gear asap. Stopping the car, lifting the bonnet and blocking the air intake takes far too long, the engine will already be damaged and because it often cooks off the coolant with a big bang you should not try doing that.
There are some good clips on You tube but because older TDI's are rare in the US I think most clips are from the EU. The white smoke is awesome, although I have never seen one first hand, although I did see a bus catch fire from a blown turbo once.
For some odd reason to do with the type of turbo it seems not to happen to trucks just diesel cars.


Again! What the **** does that have to do with group I base stocks?

If you have no knowledge on a subject you just change it to try and look smart??

Its called thread jacking and its pretty rude.

 

[electrolover]

Well thanks Quatro Pete and JHZR2 for your input! I appreciate it

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
My understanding is that a diesel will run away on pretty much anything that it can inhale that burns.
I could be wrong, though.
Shutting the key switch off should cut the flow of fuel from the injection pump.
A diesel will run on very little fuel, since it can sustain very lean mixtures, but you already knew that.


Light engine oil has nearly the same fuel burn capabilities as diesel fuel, BUT the smoke is awesome. The hotter and thinner the oil the faster the engine will go once the turbo seal fails.

 

[skyship]

Group 1 straight dino oils are hard to find, although some cars operating in a narrow warm temp range do have approvals for them. I think Castrol still have a few in their classic car section as would Mobil or Shell.
I worked in Trinidad for 2years and some locals were using a straight 30 marine oil, but the temp is always between about 20 and 35C.
The marine oils have lots of detergents so the would clean well and are cheap in bulk.

 

[Trav]

electrolover. Sorry to see your thread get hijacked by this buffoon! I was interested in the subject and thought some decent info may have been presented. Good luck with that now.
This A Hole has brought BITOG to a new low, its not a nice place to be these days.

 

[Shannow]

There's been a few discussions on it from the base-stock angle recently...

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2873086&page=1

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...963#Post2860963

 

[Trav]

Interesting stuff, thanks.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Trav
electrolover. Sorry to see your thread get hijacked by this buffoon! I was interested in the subject and thought some decent info may have been presented. Good luck with that now.
This A Hole has brought BITOG to a new low, its not a nice place to be these days.




I couldn't agree more.

Interesting discussions Shannow. Thanks.