Good read on 0w20 from Honda

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock
But look, there's a track version of the Boss 302 and a street version.

So if you take the street version onto the track and your power gets cut off, it's because you're driving the street version beyond what you paid for.

If it happens with the track version, then you're just a great driver and you can't blame CAFE.

Seems like the engineers thought this one through as well.


Mark:

I explained this earlier, but you obviously missed it.

The difference between the track pack BOSS 302 and the regular BOSS 302 is the lack of amenities and some general lightening of the vehicle. The cars are otherwise identical and spec the exact same lubricant.

The DIFFERENCE lies with the Mustang GT, which Ford says is "track ready", but doesn't have the factory oil cooler and spec's 5w20 instead of 5w50 like the BOSS 302 does.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112


Sure looks like limp mode is based on coolant temp and not oil temp. Start at pg. 283.

When coolant temperature rises doesn't oil temperature rise? Its a chain of events and coolant temps should rise faster than oil temps.


When coolant temps rise so do oil temps. It is a chain of events, usually coolant temps rise faster than oil but if the engine is running very hot the oil is probably very hot too.

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
So you have a choice don't you?


Like I've told you, there's always a choice.

Under warranty with Mercedes, I have the choice of 2 readily available oils, with HTHSV of 3.5 and 3.8, that happen to fall into 0w30 and 0w40 SAE categories. The cost is $5 a quart.

This is without CAFE influence.

Under Ford, with hands tied by CAFE, I have a choice of many more oils with HTHSV ranging from 2.6 to 2.9. Readily available, the cost can be as low as $2 a quart.

I have more choice under CAFE than without CAFE. Ford did more testing under CAFE and got better reliability than Mercedes and the other Germans did without CAFE.

Additionally, Mercedes aren't giving consumers a choice to save fuel by adapting their oil choice to their driving style. They are not offering this choice even without some sort of government restriction on them.

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
But look, there's a track version of the Boss 302 and a street version.

So if you take the street version onto the track and your power gets cut off, it's because you're driving the street version beyond what you paid for.

If it happens with the track version, then you're just a great driver and you can't blame CAFE.

Seems like the engineers thought this one through as well.


Mark:

I explained this earlier, but you obviously missed it.

The difference between the track pack BOSS 302 and the regular BOSS 302 is the lack of amenities and some general lightening of the vehicle. The cars are otherwise identical and spec the exact same lubricant.

The DIFFERENCE lies with the Mustang GT, which Ford says is "track ready", but doesn't have the factory oil cooler and spec's 5w20 instead of 5w50 like the BOSS 302 does.


Thanks for repeating yourself for me.

Looks like the marketing folks thought that one through rather than the engineers! Old habits die hard for US auto manufacturers.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
So you have a choice don't you?


Like I've told you, there's always a choice.

Under warranty with Mercedes, I have the choice of 2 readily available oils, with HTHSV of 3.5 and 3.8, that happen to fall into 0w30 and 0w40 SAE categories. The cost is $5 a quart.

This is without CAFE influence.

Under Ford, with hands tied by CAFE, I have a choice of many more oils with HTHSV ranging from 2.6 to 2.9. Readily available, the cost can be as low as $2 a quart.

I have more choice under CAFE than without CAFE. Ford did more testing under CAFE and got better reliability than Mercedes and the other Germans did without CAFE.

Additionally, Mercedes aren't giving consumers a choice to save fuel by adapting their oil choice to their driving style. They are not offering this choice even without some sort of government restriction on them.


Keep in mind, Ford has their own specifications an oil needs to meet too.

WSS-M2C945-A is the current spec for 5w20/0w20 lubricants for use in Ford vehicles.

Just like Mercedes has their spec's, so does Ford. The German spec's are a lot more stringent because they cover extended drains. Subsequently, you won't have as many lubricants meeting the spec's because it limits your choice to synthetic oils.

I'm a HUGE Ford fan, but even I find your take on this pretty jaded. Ford is operating in their home environment here, the Germans aren't. Their track record on their home turf has been much better than it has been here, all CAFE talks aside.

 

[Trav]

Oh so we cant read the chart now. I guess we all need to take a look.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
But look, there's a track version of the Boss 302 and a street version.

So if you take the street version onto the track and your power gets cut off, it's because you're driving the street version beyond what you paid for.

If it happens with the track version, then you're just a great driver and you can't blame CAFE.

Seems like the engineers thought this one through as well.


Mark:

I explained this earlier, but you obviously missed it.

The difference between the track pack BOSS 302 and the regular BOSS 302 is the lack of amenities and some general lightening of the vehicle. The cars are otherwise identical and spec the exact same lubricant.

The DIFFERENCE lies with the Mustang GT, which Ford says is "track ready", but doesn't have the factory oil cooler and spec's 5w20 instead of 5w50 like the BOSS 302 does.


Thanks for repeating yourself for me.

Looks like the marketing folks thought that one through rather than the engineers! Old habits die hard for US auto manufacturers.


Yes, the Mustang GT has always been the seller, whilst historically, the SVT guys (much like BMW's ///M division) have had free reign to really do some incredible stuff with their versions of regular Ford vehicles. While SVT is no more, we see a similar approach with the BOSS and Shelby cars that Ford currently markets. They are true performance cars and like the AMG and ///M vehicles, they often have more coolers, spec heavier lubricants....etc because they are truly "track ready".

On the other hand, like BMW sells tarted-up 5'ers that look the part, they aren't an ///M. The same goes with the "track pack" for the Mustang GT.

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Just as the Germans realized their engine designs needed a certain amount of headroom, I think the Japanese also understand the headroom they need.


Yes, which is why Japanese cars like the Nissan GT-R spec 0w40

The Honda S2000 spec'd 10w30 or 5w40, the Lexus IS-F requires 5w30....etc

So even the Japanese step it up a notch or two when power density is increased and the potential usage profile steps outside of the grocery getter range.


So if the Japanese figured out the correct oil for higher power density engines is 30 or 40 weight (but note that the 30 weights are not limited to having HTHSV of 3.5), and they figured out that the regular power density engines can live with 20 weight oil, how can there possibly be an argument that Toyota is running away from 20 weight oil?

 

[bubbajoe_2112]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
....That is not the feature we are discussing in this thread, which limits power output once oil temperatures get too high...


I am well aware of that. Still looking for proof of the oil temp based limp mode on the Mustang engines....

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
So based on the Ford engineers comments, their is also a fail-safe system to deal with high oil temp's.


What Ford Engineer's comment?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Just as the Germans realized their engine designs needed a certain amount of headroom, I think the Japanese also understand the headroom they need.


Yes, which is why Japanese cars like the Nissan GT-R spec 0w40

The Honda S2000 spec'd 10w30 or 5w40, the Lexus IS-F requires 5w30....etc

So even the Japanese step it up a notch or two when power density is increased and the potential usage profile steps outside of the grocery getter range.


So if the Japanese figured out the correct oil for higher power density engines is 30 or 40 weight (but note that the 30 weights are not limited to having HTHSV of 3.5), and they figured out that the regular power density engines can live with 20 weight oil, how can there possibly be an argument that Toyota is running away from 20 weight oil?


That has never been MY argument here, that is the discussion between you and Trav. Perhaps in Germany, they are?

But in North America, where CAFE credits are significant, the shift has continued to be, from what I can see, to the adoption of thinner lubricants for your average car. Of course this includes the design caveats that go along with that, which Shannow has covered adequately I think.

The high performance cars, and I think the German cars due to how they test, will continue to spec oils that drive CATERHAM nuts

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Now, onto the point of my post. It wasn't about Headroom!

It was about the assertion that it is impossible that one oil fits all.

My point was that Mercedes believes one oil does fit all. In every country, in almost every engine from 1.5L to 6.5L Black Series, M1 0w40 is the recommended oil. This suggests it's viscosity is appropriate for everyone in every operating condition. Grocery getter in mild England to autobahn blaster.


The difference you are seeing is that the Euro marques aren't saying one OIL, or even one VISCOSITY fits all. They are saying one certification, or set of certifications will properly protect the engine regardless of where it is operated. The grade is irrelevant as Trav pointed out, as many of the oils that meet many of the Euro spec's are 0w30, 5w30, 0w40, 5w40..etc. But they meet the spec's for the manufacturer in terms of extended drain capability, engine protection and cleanliness.


OVERK1LL, I understand the certification business, but what I am getting at is that M1 0w40 is factory fill for Mercedes, Porsche and Aston Martin and recommended as the service fill. Worldwide.

Ford has a standard M2C945-A, and it recommends Motorcraft semi synthetic in the US.

So Ford's one oil fits all uses in the US is invalid because one oil cannot fit all purposes.

But Mercedes one oil fits all engines all uses worldwide is valid?

Remember, I am specifically stating that they factory fill M1 0w40 and recommend it as the service fill for engines ranging from that in the A150 to Black Series AMG65's.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
....That is not the feature we are discussing in this thread, which limits power output once oil temperatures get too high...


I am well aware of that. Still looking for proof of the oil temp based limp mode on the Mustang engines....

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
So based on the Ford engineers comments, their is also a fail-safe system to deal with high oil temp's.


What Ford Engineer's comment?


What Ed posted earlier:

Quote:
Consideration was given to an external oil cooler, but ultimately it was decided not to penalize all Coyote buyers for the occasional antics of a miniscule fraction of owners. Oil temperature rises precipitously when the Coyote is revved more than 4,500 rpm for extended periods, and then an external oil-to-air cooler is vital. But those conditions can only be reached on a road-racing track, so the expensive cooler was ditched and engine management strategies were used to protect the engine during hot idles. However, the mounting area for the cooler was "protected" during the 2011 Mustang's development. That makes it easier for the open-trackers among us to fit a cooler (highly recommended by Coyote engine designers), and tells you something about Ford's intentions for special editions of the Coyote-powered Mustangs.

And don't worry about the occasional open-track without an oil cooler. The engineers say the oil cools quickly as soon as you take your foot out of it, and the engine management will limit the torque output if the oil gets too hot.

 

[MarkStock]

Yes you again missed out some information. I said it was confusing.

You're also ofuscating the fact that you have to go to the MB229.5 spec sheet which only has 30 and 40 weight oils available.


Here is the text before the chart:

Quote:
Using the chart below, select oil viscosity
according to the lowest air temperature
expected before the next oil change


Originally Posted By: Trav
Oh so we cant read the chart now. I guess we all need to take a look.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Now, onto the point of my post. It wasn't about Headroom!

It was about the assertion that it is impossible that one oil fits all.

My point was that Mercedes believes one oil does fit all. In every country, in almost every engine from 1.5L to 6.5L Black Series, M1 0w40 is the recommended oil. This suggests it's viscosity is appropriate for everyone in every operating condition. Grocery getter in mild England to autobahn blaster.


The difference you are seeing is that the Euro marques aren't saying one OIL, or even one VISCOSITY fits all. They are saying one certification, or set of certifications will properly protect the engine regardless of where it is operated. The grade is irrelevant as Trav pointed out, as many of the oils that meet many of the Euro spec's are 0w30, 5w30, 0w40, 5w40..etc. But they meet the spec's for the manufacturer in terms of extended drain capability, engine protection and cleanliness.


OVERK1LL, I understand the certification business, but what I am getting at is that M1 0w40 is factory fill for Mercedes, Porsche and Aston Martin and recommended as the service fill. Worldwide.

Ford has a standard M2C945-A, and it recommends Motorcraft semi synthetic in the US.

So Ford's one oil fits all uses in the US is invalid because one oil cannot fit all purposes.

But Mercedes one oil fits all engines all uses worldwide is valid?

Remember, I am specifically stating that they factory fill M1 0w40 and recommend it as the service fill for engines ranging from that in the A150 to Black Series AMG65's.


Well, Ford DOES have more than one spec

WSS-M2C946-A is met by M1 5w30. The oil for the BOSS 302 and Shelby has yet another spec associated with it.

Ford doesn't just say use 5w20 in everything, there ARE application specific recommendations. What muddies things a bit is that outside of North America, those recommendations change. Whilst Mercedes's recommendations are global.

That's why the effects of CAFE are being questioned here.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
they figured out that the regular power density engines can live with 20 weight oil, how can there possibly be an argument that Toyota is running away from 20 weight oil?

I said in Germany last year they spec 20w and not even 0w30 as an alternative for the prius now they spec a high HTHS 30w as their first choice.
Call it back specing to 30w or minimizing the use of 20w whatever verbiage your prefer but they are still running away from 20 there in that car.

But you know that already, your just doing your usual twisty thing. Its not working anymore.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Yes you again missed out some information. I said it was confusing. You need to be better with the details, surprising for {removed insult}.


What? Take 0c 32f and you can use any one of the oils listed.
Quote:
You're also ofuscating the fact that you have to go to the MB229.5 spec sheet which only has 30 and 40 weight oils available.
Then why are they putting that chart in the owners manual for that car?

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Does this spec apply to their highest performance offerings or only their more pedestrian product lines?


The source I posted earlier said all Gasoline engines apart from the S3. So there are probably some exceptions.

But for Germany, I think we should realize that smaller engines are pushed harder on the autobahn.

It's still interesting that MB minimum HTHSV is 3.5 while VW seems to be 2.9 for virtually all the engines.

 

[bubbajoe_2112]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
....That is not the feature we are discussing in this thread, which limits power output once oil temperatures get too high...


I am well aware of that. Still looking for proof of the oil temp based limp mode on the Mustang engines....

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
So based on the Ford engineers comments, their is also a fail-safe system to deal with high oil temp's.


What Ford Engineer's comment?


What Ed posted earlier:

Quote:
Consideration was given to an external oil cooler, but ultimately it was decided not to penalize all Coyote buyers for the occasional antics of a miniscule fraction of owners. Oil temperature rises precipitously when the Coyote is revved more than 4,500 rpm for extended periods, and then an external oil-to-air cooler is vital. But those conditions can only be reached on a road-racing track, so the expensive cooler was ditched and engine management strategies were used to protect the engine during hot idles. However, the mounting area for the cooler was "protected" during the 2011 Mustang's development. That makes it easier for the open-trackers among us to fit a cooler (highly recommended by Coyote engine designers), and tells you something about Ford's intentions for special editions of the Coyote-powered Mustangs.

And don't worry about the occasional open-track without an oil cooler. The engineers say the oil cools quickly as soon as you take your foot out of it, and the engine management will limit the torque output if the oil gets too hot.


Forgive me if I don't rely on second hand heresay from an anonymous writer. Still looking for proof...

Really thought it would be in the owner's manual, but alas, (unless I just missed it) it's not. But the coolant temp limp mode is clearly listed in the same owner's manual.

The search continues....

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: MarkStock
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Does this spec apply to their highest performance offerings or only their more pedestrian product lines?


The source I posted earlier said all Gasoline engines apart from the S3. So there are probably some exceptions.

But for Germany, I think we should realize that smaller engines are pushed harder on the autobahn.

It's still interesting that MB minimum HTHSV is 3.5 while VW seems to be 2.9 for virtually all the engines.


BMW IIRC has two tiers with one having a slightly lower HTHS, but still much higher than any of the regular North American stuff. LL-01 is 3.5cP+.

And this is exactly for the reason you've mentioned: the potential for them to be pushed much harder on the Autobahn.

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Then why are they putting that chart in the owners manual for that car?


Look, Germans aren't the best communicators. I mean why suggest in the chart but without any textual explanation that the maximum ambient temp for 30 weight is 86f. How many people do you think are running GC 0w30 above 86f?

And don't forget, the Germans had a decade of the wrong oils going into North America engines due to not communicating the requirements very well.

That's why I went to the 229.5 sheet which makes no mention of maximum operating temp. The only mention is in the chart. There is no text. If it were important, you think they would mention it in the text somewhere.

What does it say on Mobil 1's Germany website?