Agreed. Not anti-Ford or anti-GM. Just experienced. I have owned & maintained 6 Fords, 2 GM products, 1 Plymouth, and 1 Nissan.
Now I am very happy with my Toyota and my Honda (both made in the USA
GM unveils new light truck diesel
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Now I am very happy with my Toyota and my Honda (both made in the USA
It's too bad that when this small diesel is introduced to get great mileage, that it will only be available in the top of the model line. You will pay more for the add on stuff than you will ever get back in better mileage. Only people willing to pay for the gadgets will get the diesel. An example is the Escape hybrid. Great idea, great size vehicle. But you have to get every gadget made that Ford can stuff in the thing, just to get better mileage. The attitude is if you want the better mileage, you'd better be ready to pay for it.
It's only conjecture that GM will only offer this at the top of the model line. Look at the current lineup of Chevy trucks. The lowly work truck (WT) has no fewer than 5 engine choices with 3 different displacements.
About Toyotas and Hondas being made in the US, that line bothers me every time I hear it. The assembly process is such a small part of what it takes to create a vehicle. Anyone who has worked for an auto company, as I do, should understand that. Honda and Toyota keep the engineering, design, much of the sub-component manufacture, corporate management and most everything else about the company except sales and some of the assembly at home in Japan. That's where most of your money is going. If you think you're supporting the American economy by buying a made-in-USA foreign car make, you'd better check the facts.
About Toyotas and Hondas being made in the US, that line bothers me every time I hear it. The assembly process is such a small part of what it takes to create a vehicle. Anyone who has worked for an auto company, as I do, should understand that. Honda and Toyota keep the engineering, design, much of the sub-component manufacture, corporate management and most everything else about the company except sales and some of the assembly at home in Japan. That's where most of your money is going. If you think you're supporting the American economy by buying a made-in-USA foreign car make, you'd better check the facts.
I didn't buy my vehicles to support the economy. I bought them because they are high quality vehicles. They just happen to be made in the USA, unlike a lot of cars.
Back when I bought nothing but Ford & GM to "support the economy", all I did was contribute to the attitude those companies seem to have that they can continue to build nothing but **** and homers who want to "support the economy" will buy it.
Wow, so much bitterness and misinformation on this thread. For one thing, GM owned a sizeable portion of Isuzu for many years so GM did not "go outside" the company to design the Duramax. For another, there is only one company that has higher initial quality (as per JD Power) than GM, Toyota. I have owned several domestic and foreign brands and that's why I now only buy GM. Because my experience has been that the foreign brands are ****-more expensive to fix and they take longer to fix i.e. parts take longer when ordered and repair time is longer.
Please don't reply that initial quality is one thing and long-term is another and that GM doesn't have long-term quality, because my experience has shown otherwise. I also own Harley's, because, for one thing, my experience with three separate Japanese brands was not good. Now I not only feel good because I'm buying products that are easy to work on, repair parts are relatively inexpensive, and parts are readily available, but they're American products, made by Americans, in America!
I, for one, lose respect for people that are so proud of the fact that they wouldn't even consider an American vehicle. It makes me think that they've been living under a rock for several years.
Rant over for now.
Please don't reply that initial quality is one thing and long-term is another and that GM doesn't have long-term quality, because my experience has shown otherwise. I also own Harley's, because, for one thing, my experience with three separate Japanese brands was not good. Now I not only feel good because I'm buying products that are easy to work on, repair parts are relatively inexpensive, and parts are readily available, but they're American products, made by Americans, in America!
I, for one, lose respect for people that are so proud of the fact that they wouldn't even consider an American vehicle. It makes me think that they've been living under a rock for several years.
Rant over for now.
I come from a different perspective. Companies that interest me are ones that utilize the best ideas and technology at the moment. Ones that want to have a good driving car, a safe car, a fun car...basically everything into one. I don't think a buyer should have to settle for something.
GM has to be one of the worst on this one. Their platforms are old, handle horribly and fit and finish is rental car grade. I'm not saying they are unreliable, they have seem to cover that area pretty well...you would hope so using so many old school parts. They need to be on the cutting edge, unlike the past where if the safety is poor for example then they will wait till they have to change it at the latest time for whatever reason that may be.
I've driven way too many cars and worked on various brands and hands down I believe BMW does the best job overall. I'm not saying they are the most reliable or the cheapest to own. But they work hard to be ahead of the game which includes well-sorted suspensions that are changed on each model (every ~7 years), they typically come out with the latest engine technology and electronics that is then followed by Japanese then Americans a long time down. For the Japanese I think Honda is impressive also.
No one should have to invest in a company that has been ignorant and tried to push some major **** out back in the day. If they are willing to change themselves around that's a different story. We have a `05 F-150 in our family btw which I do think is a well built vehicle for its price range and competition.
You guys must be really unlucky. My GM and Ford vehicles have been great and more reliable than the *** brands I have owned.
Ethier that or you create your stories to justify your dislike your GM or Ford.
My guess is a mixture of both.
I find it kind of funny that the GM/Ford haters always had the biggest P-O-S cars from Ford and GM. Sounds a lot like a scapegoat to me.
I think the "experience" of owning both is a foolish statement at best.
I have owned both and have experienced the polar opposite. The two Honda cars I owned (91 civic and 95 accord) were throw away cars at 125K miles. I have bought used crown vic'c with 250K miles that were better cars than both honda's at 80K.
I just think a lot of the "haters" on this board make up a lot of thier "experience" to back thier choices.
Reliability is very open to perception.
Ethier that or you create your stories to justify your dislike your GM or Ford.
My guess is a mixture of both.
I find it kind of funny that the GM/Ford haters always had the biggest P-O-S cars from Ford and GM. Sounds a lot like a scapegoat to me.
I think the "experience" of owning both is a foolish statement at best.
I have owned both and have experienced the polar opposite. The two Honda cars I owned (91 civic and 95 accord) were throw away cars at 125K miles. I have bought used crown vic'c with 250K miles that were better cars than both honda's at 80K.
I just think a lot of the "haters" on this board make up a lot of thier "experience" to back thier choices.
Reliability is very open to perception.
I will second this and add that when folks do have problems with imports they blindly defend the brand anyway. Look at the major Toyota recalls and their sludgemonster. I will say though that I think another contributing factor is Toyota SEEMED to fight the recall less than the domestics would have that or the press just made it appear that way which will definetely contribute to peoples perceptions of a brand's quality.
Even speaking too an in-law who is a highend import tech he says the difference IS NOT in actual quality but in percieved and in owners. He was a Lincoln Mercury tech before and said people neglected $100 items where at the current job folks think nothing of $1500
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During that time, I have replaced one engine at 175,000 miles due only to high machine shop costs regarding having the head (s) done. It was more cost effective to swap out the engine and go for a performance re-build on the other.
As for BMWs. They are sharp, fun to drive cars, but I wouldnt call them especially durable. My boss has a 2000 323i which she bought new. For the most part, it has been a reliable car, but when it something breaks, she has to rely on the "old school" Park Ave Ultra of her husbands...which other than oil changes, hasnt missed a day of work.
FWIW, my Olds LSS's interior, with 238,000 miles on it, is in excellent condition.
My next car, will be another GM, although the Fusion is very tempting.
My own, personal experience with GM H bodies and the "old school" 3800 go back some 750,000 miles.
During that time, I have replaced one engine at 175,000 miles due only to high machine shop costs regarding having the head (s) done. It was more cost effective to swap out the engine and go for a performance re-build on the other.
As for BMWs. They are sharp, fun to drive cars, but I wouldnt call them especially durable. My boss has a 2000 323i which she bought new. For the most part, it has been a reliable car, but when it something breaks, she has to rely on the "old school" Park Ave Ultra of her husbands...which other than oil changes, hasnt missed a day of work.
FWIW, my Olds LSS's interior, with 238,000 miles on it, is in excellent condition.
My next car, will be another GM, although the Fusion is very tempting.
The general public as a whole are not as stupid as you might think. If Ford/GM/Chrysler would make better cars, they would sell more, it's that simple. The problem with products as stated by Steve Jobs is that many times in the market, to gain greater market share you can't be just a bit better, you have to be a whole lot better. If this is true, then gaining back market share is really dificult and it's too easy to fall back on business as usual. Once you loose a customers attention, you have a hard time getting it back.
LarryL, as to your first statement, in some respects, they are.
This issue obviously creates strong feelings on both sides. People always seek to justify and rationalize their choices regardless of what that choice is. GM and Ford are unquestionably not without faults. But anyone who thinks company "X" (insert favorite car brand) is without their own faults, is mistaken. I've worked in the car industry for 16 years and have a pretty good idea what each brand is all about. To go into each brands idosyncracies (sp?) would take several pages.
I've personally "switched" 7 people over to GM and will admit that 1 was not happy with the product. Every company creates some products with problems, every one.
My friend who is BMW all the way bought a second vehicle, a GMC Yukon and he loves it. He replaced his old BMW with a 540i a few months ago. The old one was great and reliable but he has had so many problems with the 540i that he said he may never buy one again. I think I've helped that along a little by taking him for a ride in my Grand Prix GTP Comp G that handles better (subjective, yes) than his car, has a lot more power (objective), and gets over 3 MPG better mileage (objective). And guess what, the GP cost a LOT less. Of course, Pontiac doesn't hold the prestige that BMW does but the Cadillac CTS also handles very well and has more HP/MPG than the Beemer, and also costs less.
People believe what they want to but, I've owned several cars, worked on several cars, and have access to warranty repair data for many brands. I made my choice over 10 years ago and have not regretted it once.
To say GM/Ford/DC don't have exciting cars means to me that either you don't know what is being offered or you've already made up your mind. Cases in point: Full-size SUV's, trucks, solstice/sky, Cadillac "V" series, Mustang, Corvette, Chevrolet SS series, Cobalt, 300 series, Charger, etc. They are out there, if you look.
This issue obviously creates strong feelings on both sides. People always seek to justify and rationalize their choices regardless of what that choice is. GM and Ford are unquestionably not without faults. But anyone who thinks company "X" (insert favorite car brand) is without their own faults, is mistaken. I've worked in the car industry for 16 years and have a pretty good idea what each brand is all about. To go into each brands idosyncracies (sp?) would take several pages.
I've personally "switched" 7 people over to GM and will admit that 1 was not happy with the product. Every company creates some products with problems, every one.
My friend who is BMW all the way bought a second vehicle, a GMC Yukon and he loves it. He replaced his old BMW with a 540i a few months ago. The old one was great and reliable but he has had so many problems with the 540i that he said he may never buy one again. I think I've helped that along a little by taking him for a ride in my Grand Prix GTP Comp G that handles better (subjective, yes) than his car, has a lot more power (objective), and gets over 3 MPG better mileage (objective). And guess what, the GP cost a LOT less. Of course, Pontiac doesn't hold the prestige that BMW does but the Cadillac CTS also handles very well and has more HP/MPG than the Beemer, and also costs less.
People believe what they want to but, I've owned several cars, worked on several cars, and have access to warranty repair data for many brands. I made my choice over 10 years ago and have not regretted it once.
To say GM/Ford/DC don't have exciting cars means to me that either you don't know what is being offered or you've already made up your mind. Cases in point: Full-size SUV's, trucks, solstice/sky, Cadillac "V" series, Mustang, Corvette, Chevrolet SS series, Cobalt, 300 series, Charger, etc. They are out there, if you look.
By 2010 I think that with diesel at over $4.50/ gal. an S-10 sized truck with a long bed and beefy springs and a turbocharged diesel engine at 2.4 litres would capture 90% of hauling needs and would be more appropriate? After all,I think you are alone in your vehicle over 87% of the time(if you're lucky).
One comment about foreign manufacturers assembling vehicles in the US:
If you don't think all those payroll taxes, sales taxes, travel, shipping of parts, and countless other monetary absolutes don't generate enormous amounts of economic impact in the states ... you don't have a clue how our economy works.
I own both foreign (Toy) and domestic (Jeep) vehicles.
My $.02
If you don't think all those payroll taxes, sales taxes, travel, shipping of parts, and countless other monetary absolutes don't generate enormous amounts of economic impact in the states ... you don't have a clue how our economy works.
I own both foreign (Toy) and domestic (Jeep) vehicles.
My $.02
I used to buy Fords mostly. I would not consider a domestic product today except a diesel (and not a new Powerstroke with it's numerous recall's).
I found this forum from a Nissan Titan forum. My truck btw, was engineered in Cali (though Nissan has since moved their HQ to TN I believe), the tranny comes out of TN (yep that's right made there) and my truck was built in Canton MS. The last Ford F 150 I had was made in Canda. The light duty diesel that Nissan is reportedly commited to make is rumored to be powered by an International powerplant.
To further digress of topic, I find it sad that the GM pickup line, for example, is still using engines they developed in the 1950's. Why can't they develop a DOHC variable valve timed V8 the makes 90% of it's tork at 2500 rpm's like my Titan powerplant? Why do they have to turn to Isuzu for a diesel powerplant?
My other vehicle is a Subaru and last 4 vehicles were all imports and were just bullet proof. When I arrived at this board it was my impression the the import UAO's were also superior to the domestic UAO's. Of course I am such a noob at this, but low wear metals seem to be consistant in the import lines.
Of course this board is helpful, for me anyway, in identifying any problematic powerplants in the import lines.
There was a time when I supported the big 3. I feel more educated now about the matter. Back then it used to frustrate me that the imports were recomended by the consumer organizations, that they held there value better, and seemed to have more endurance than the domestics.
Sorry if I took this off topic.
I found this forum from a Nissan Titan forum. My truck btw, was engineered in Cali (though Nissan has since moved their HQ to TN I believe), the tranny comes out of TN (yep that's right made there) and my truck was built in Canton MS. The last Ford F 150 I had was made in Canda. The light duty diesel that Nissan is reportedly commited to make is rumored to be powered by an International powerplant.
To further digress of topic, I find it sad that the GM pickup line, for example, is still using engines they developed in the 1950's. Why can't they develop a DOHC variable valve timed V8 the makes 90% of it's tork at 2500 rpm's like my Titan powerplant? Why do they have to turn to Isuzu for a diesel powerplant?
My other vehicle is a Subaru and last 4 vehicles were all imports and were just bullet proof. When I arrived at this board it was my impression the the import UAO's were also superior to the domestic UAO's. Of course I am such a noob at this, but low wear metals seem to be consistant in the import lines.
Of course this board is helpful, for me anyway, in identifying any problematic powerplants in the import lines.
There was a time when I supported the big 3. I feel more educated now about the matter. Back then it used to frustrate me that the imports were recomended by the consumer organizations, that they held there value better, and seemed to have more endurance than the domestics.
Sorry if I took this off topic.
Why do you want tork from your engines?
What is tork?
Is that the thing they give you to eat with at KFC?
Nissan and Toyota have yet to make a dent in the full size truck market. I wonder why?
The big three make the best trucks in the world. I love how it pains the "haters" to face the truth.
What is tork?
Is that the thing they give you to eat with at KFC?
Nissan and Toyota have yet to make a dent in the full size truck market. I wonder why?
The big three make the best trucks in the world. I love how it pains the "haters" to face the truth.
You do realize that many of those trucks are not sold to individuals, but to companies for fleets.
Those contracts don't mean they're getting the best trucks - it means that someone has made deals.
Whether that benefits anyone directly, or is the result of the "Buy American" movement, doesn't prove that these trucks are better.
What in the way of proof do you present?
Because you're an import hater?
Just because someone doesn't agree with you and fall in line to buy American doesn't make them haters.
Most people use Windows too - is it the best?
Those contracts don't mean they're getting the best trucks - it means that someone has made deals.
Whether that benefits anyone directly, or is the result of the "Buy American" movement, doesn't prove that these trucks are better.
What in the way of proof do you present?
Because you're an import hater?
Just because someone doesn't agree with you and fall in line to buy American doesn't make them haters.
Most people use Windows too - is it the best?
^^^
Hi
Still, these trucks are capable of real work which is reflected in the numbers seen on farms and ranches across the country.
You must be referring to the base engine in the light duty 1500's. I wonder how many actually go out the door with the 4.3?
Still, these trucks are capable of real work which is reflected in the numbers seen on farms and ranches across the country.
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