GM to Stop Making Gas-powered Cars

[FireChicken]

It's not the nuke gen that's exported, it's almost entirely wind. We export something like 90% of windgen because it produces out of phase with demand.

And yes, the market price sometimes goes negative but the average per kWh we receive on exports is $0.014/kWh for the last year, which is horrific given the contract cost for that same wind which is $0.148/kWh.

I was told when the KIDD Met site in Timmins shut down it was Ontario's single largest consumer of hydro. From that point on we were exporting electricity some days.
I have a pretty interesting little book here with the Ontario Hydro procedure for emergency load shed for INCO's Stobie mine. All hand written, what loads to dump and time tables for how long we had to do it. I should scan some of it I think you might appreciate a gander. It was a huge consumer of power 4 hoists, several crushing plants, compressor plants, pumping stations and a mill. Nothing saved but scraps of paper now.

 

[LouC]

Charging stations are fine if you own your own home, what are city dwellers going to do? Will there be outlets in the sidewalks of NYC? Sorry but I don't see the infrastructure changing fast enough to make this practical and the odd side effect may be, gas powered used cars going up in value. The typical Tesla owner is not the typical urban car owner. NYC and other urban areas where many people still need vehicles are not So Cal Tesla land like. Its a much tougher environment. The current state of development of electric vehicles is very biased toward suburban home owners.

 

[OVERKILL]

I was told when the KIDD Met site in Timmins shut down it was Ontario's single largest consumer of hydro. From that point on we were exporting electricity some days.
I have a pretty interesting little book here with the Ontario Hydro procedure for emergency load shed for INCO's Stobie mine. All hand written, what loads to dump and time tables for how long we had to do it. I should scan some of it I think you might appreciate a gander. It was a huge consumer of power 4 hoists, several crushing plants, compressor plants, pumping stations and a mill. Nothing saved but scraps of paper now.

I track Ontario's electricity gen and post bi-weekly wind output and Darlington Nuclear output on Twitter so I'm pretty up-to speed on the subject

Ontario demand peaks at ~24,000MW in the summer, less in the winter. Current demand is 19,444MW with a market demand of 22,442MW. We have ~13,000MW of Nuclear, there's 10,000MW of it online right now, so it's very rare that demand dips down to that level (though it does happen in the spring and fall briefly sometimes). For some parts of the year nuclear + hydro can satisfy pretty much all of Ontario's demand, but they wouldn't be able to do it right now. Hydro and available nuclear maxed out would be ~18,000MW so we are burning 3,300MW of gas right now and exporting ~1,500MW of wind (all of it).

Wind produces at ~13% of capacity during the summer, so it is pretty much useless. It produces >40% in the spring and fall when our demand is lowest, which drives up exports considerably and the market rate down, which in turn is why exports have become a massive exercise in losing money for the ratepayer. Historically, before wind, exports were a for-profit endeavour as we could export reliable excess hydro, which is our cheapest source.

Now, all that said, Bruce is capable of curtailing output. It offers up to 2,400MW of "flexible" generation which it can shed in blocks via steam bypass. It used to do it when wind had "first to grid" rights and we'd dump steam at Bruce instead of curtailing wind. Now we curtail wind, but that doesn't fix the cost angle because wind is on fixed-rate contracts, which is ludicrous, but that's the deal McGuilty and Wynne married us to unfortunately.

 

[FireChicken]

I looked at an electrical print for the generators one time and happened to notice a significant difference in the exciters for one of them.
Stands to reason now it might have been Bruce and fits with the Flexible generation.

Interesting things you learn On Bob's...

 

[OVERKILL]

I looked at an electrical print for the generators one time and happened to notice a significant difference in the exciters for one of them.
Stands to reason now it might have been Bruce and fits with the Flexible generation.

Interesting things you learn On Bob's...

How it's achieved at Bruce is through steam bypass, it's actually pretty cool. They can dump steam to the condensers on anywhere from one to eight units with up to 300MW of flexible output per unit. They can do this indefinitely and keep reactor power at 100% allowing rapid come-up. This is basically fast-ramp nuclear load follow (as fast as you can ramp an 800+MW generator) but the caveat is that for load follow you have to be curtailing. If the plant is already running at 100% you obviously can't increase output. Since the plant is most efficient wide-open it only maneuvers now if wind is already fully curtailed, so say we had a 12,000MW day, they would curtail during that low load period.

Interesting fact about Bruce: It has the highest thermal capacity of any units in the fleet. I have a thread on the Bruce MCR vs Darlington Refurb project in the General and OT section, you should check it out.

 

[philipp10]

Yeah, big deal. It is really a PR or political announcement. Depending on the lay of the land between now and then they can reverse it or delay it at anytime. So big deal. If they said they were going to do it in 5 years would be a big deal. Not this.

But one thing might bite them. Some will look at this and say, "Why should I buy a ICE powered GM car or pickup if they might not support them later?" With the average age of cars in the US pushing 13 years, that's a valid concern. In fact, if I were buying a pickup truck or large SUV right now, it is probably enough to make me shop Ram or Ford and skip right over GM. And the benefit? They made some folks feel good who won't buy a GM product right now, anyway. So overall, I think its a dumb move that they didn't think through very well.

So I'm now imagining how we'll go from feeling great about ending coal mining and reducing fossil fuel production to opening up gaping holes in the earth to get the materials for these batteries. But we'll ignore that because it interferes with our green euphoria. (Nevermind the fact that natural gas is a fossil fuel and is required for the production of the electricity these cars will demand. Funny how some of the highly aroused green folk don't seem to get that.)

Can I ask your age? Because I am 61 and I wil probably never own an EV. I too, don't see how they are cost competitve and are only slightly more green. However, you got to look at it from GM's point of view. Their future customers are people much younger than I. And that generation thinks a lot differently than someone from the 1970's. For GM to last long term, they have to move where their future customers are going. It will also give them a chance to raise capital in the markets that they otherwise couldn't. Any car company not moving into EV's and self driving will be absolute dinosaurs by 2035. I was a real skeptic of Tesla for a long time but EV's are here to stay.

 

[IndyFan]

Can I ask your age? Because I am 61 and I wil probably never own an EV. I too, don't see how they are cost competitve and are only slightly more green. However, you got to look at it from GM's point of view. Their future customers are people much younger than I. And that generation thinks a lot differently than someone from the 1970's. For GM to last long term, they have to move where their future customers are going. It will also give them a chance to raise capital in the markets that they otherwise couldn't. Any car company not moving into EV's and self driving will be absolute dinosaurs by 2035. I was a real skeptic of Tesla for a long time but EV's are here to stay.

Not saying they won't move in that direction. I'm saying that setting a hard date like that today is nothing but a PR/political move right now, this far in advance. Heck, it may be a move to hold off pressure to increase CAFE requirements.

 

[Wolf359]

As for the lesson on unions, irrelevant to the question if Tesla would buy GM.

Yeah when buying something you could always just buy the assets. Lots of times companies are sold and just the assets are bought, not the liabilities. That's how you shed unions and old contracts.

 

[Trav]

I seriously doubt GM and Ford will be around in 2035 as we know them today. VW will take Ford and possibly Toyota or Tesla GM, crystal ball may need polishing, lets see.

 

[FireChicken]

I seriously doubt GM and Ford will be around in 2035 as we know them today. VW will take Ford and possibly Toyota or Tesla GM, crystal ball may need polishing, lets see.

Don't use a buffer and compound on it, mine got milky and cracked like that...
I think your just supposed to throw them out after the factory clear coat comes off Planned obsolescence. ( and you can't re-tube and do a cap job on them no one makes the parts for them after 10 year )
Don't buy a Chinese one they have lead in the glass, and the picute is distorted too, you never can be sure what your being shown is on the level....

More thoughts on Crystal ball and the picture from other parts of the world...

If you have to buy a foreign made one A Sony Trinitron tops the list for reliability and picture clarity.
If you get any ideas about using Russian Tubes to repair and American made unit from the 60s let me tell first off.. They give you this creapy feeling they are staring back at you after while, and most of the sign posts are written in Cyrillic so you can't tell where your being lead.
English ones are still only made in black and white, they still only receive 405 line encoded signals and you need to buy a lisence to look into one... German and French ones use PAL or something weird so you can't tell what anyone is saying when you look into one ( French one is compatible with Signals from Russia but you still can not read the road signs.... ) Canadian ones only suffer from a snowy picture 6 months of the year...

So if you are still using a quality 1960s American made Crystal ball, and your happy with the picture from the 1960s, stick with it because you will not ever get a replacement

 

[Job]

So Tesla workers get no pension except social security? That's rotten. Of course there aren't many of them either, it's all becoming Skynet. One thing I like about unions is we all have a 40 hour work week, sick leave, paid vacation, retirement and disability benefits. All due to them. Maybe Tesla throws 10% matching funds at the employees 401k every pay check, that's an easy way to do a retirement plan.

 

[DwightFrye]

So Tesla workers get no pension except social security? That's rotten. Of course there aren't many of them either, it's all becoming Skynet. One thing I like about unions is we all have a 40 hour work week, sick leave, paid vacation, retirement and disability benefits. All due to them. Maybe Tesla throws 10% matching funds at the employees 401k every pay check, that's an easy way to do a retirement plan.

Tesla workers must be happy with their wages and benefits or they would quit. No one forces them to work there. They can contribute to their own 401k plan and have a "pension", one that is not dependent upon a Ponzi scheme like the UAW workers retirement plan or taxpayers making up the difference between what is in their account and what is promised like many city/county/state or federal employees.
By the way, when I was with Tesla I contributed 10% of my salary to my 401k and the company matching contribution was capped at 6%. I never felt that I was entitled to some type of gold plated retirement plan paying out 80% per year or more of what my highest annual earnings were. It would be nice, but not realistic.

As far as Tesla buying GM, I don't see that happening. Why would they spend billions of dollars to a acquire a mediocre automaker when they could spend that money improving their own product and building more state of the art factories around the world to capture more and more market share ?

 

[FireChicken]

Tesla workers must be happy with their wages and benefits or they would quit. No one forces them to work there. They can contribute to their own 401k plan and have a "pension", one that is not dependent upon a Ponzi scheme like the UAW workers retirement plan or taxpayers making up the difference between what is in their account and what is promised like many city/county/state or federal employees.

As far as Tesla buying GM, I don't see that happening. Why would they spend billions of dollars to a acquire a mediocre automaker when they could spend that money improving their own product and building more state of the art factories around the world to capture more and more market share ?

So a Tesla worker is happy to make less than a UAW. Is that a choice or a mobility issue? would Tesla keep that plant open if it was unionized or move it to one of the Mexican-American states? ( money remember moves at the speed of electrons, people move at the speed... people if they can at all )
So instead of a Company backed Ponzie pension scheme the Tesla employee goes it alone like most workers today in the greatest ponzie scheme of all wall street, and he has no one to blame but himself if it all goes sideways.

Some socialized pension and saving scheme turn to work pretty good and they are fully secure examples include the Sask pension plan ( and look at the returns it out performs private plans ), Canada pensions is fully funded ( although small by intention because the banksters really don't like competition for your dollars ) and the grand daddy of them all the greatest public wealth fund of them all Norway, where you don't just have a pension and benefits for life your technically a Millionaire as your birth right and care for cradle to grave thanks to shrewd long term investing and public control of the funds....

The danger is if we stop pumping money into the RRSPs and Riffs TFSAs then the banksters only have the profits of the companies they own to suport the markets or bail-outs. I guess they an always expect bail outs so everything is fine nothing to see here...move on....

 

[UncleDave]

Charging stations are fine if you own your own home, what are city dwellers going to do? Will there be outlets in the sidewalks of NYC? Sorry but I don't see the infrastructure changing fast enough to make this practical and the odd side effect may be, gas powered used cars going up in value. The typical Tesla owner is not the typical urban car owner. NYC and other urban areas where many people still need vehicles are not So Cal Tesla land like. Its a much tougher environment. The current state of development of electric vehicles is very biased toward suburban home owners.

How many in NYC own a car compared to how many live there anyway?

When you say city dwellers, you are saying apartment complexes and high rise dwellers, in a downtown area.

Homeowners in the city have no problem.

High rise dwellers typically use public transport more than cars, and their parking planning requirements reinforces this by allowing them a ridiculous ratio of vehicles per bedrooms in the units, often in jammed underground floors.

 

[PimTac]

So Tesla workers get no pension except social security? That's rotten. Of course there aren't many of them either, it's all becoming Skynet. One thing I like about unions is we all have a 40 hour work week, sick leave, paid vacation, retirement and disability benefits. All due to them. Maybe Tesla throws 10% matching funds at the employees 401k every pay check, that's an easy way to do a retirement plan.

Pensions have been past tense for some time. 401k and such take their place. It’s up to the individual to plan their future.

 

[FireChicken]

Pensions have been past tense for some time. 401k and such take their place. It’s up to the individual to plan their future.

Indeed the market knows best, the world is a meritocracy and Good/Bad luck is just karma police.

 

[UncleDave]

So Tesla workers get no pension except social security? That's rotten. Of course there aren't many of them either, it's all becoming Skynet. One thing I like about unions is we all have a 40 hour work week, sick leave, paid vacation, retirement and disability benefits. All due to them. Maybe Tesla throws 10% matching funds at the employees 401k every pay check, that's an easy way to do a retirement plan.

Almost no non union companies in the US offer pensions. They do 401K matching, and offer other things.
I'm 54 and have never had a pension job.

Interesting you feel your benefits are all due to a union.

All my staff have a 40 hour work week, sick leave, paid vacation, comprehensive health and disability benefits with reasonable deductibles, 401K match, vision, dental, legal assistance, investment assistance. For the last 26 years everyones gotten a year end bonus even in 2020.

Id bet telsa offers a stock program, I made a fortune on Autodesk stock due to their stock option program.

 

[JeffKeryk]

"GM to Stop Making Gas-powered Cars"

Every product has a life cycle, like it or not. Right?

 

[Job]

Almost no non union companies in the US offer pensions. They do 401K matching, and offer other things.
I'm 54 and have never had a pension job.

Interesting you feel your benefits are all due to a union.

All my staff have a 40 hour work week, sick leave, paid vacation, comprehensive health and disability benefits with reasonable deductibles, 401K match, vision, dental, legal assistance, investment assistance. For the last 26 years everyones gotten a year end bonus even in 2020.

Id bet telsa offers a stock program, I made a fortune on Autodesk stock due to their stock option program.

It’s not a feeling, it’s fact unions fighting have given all the modern day benefits. I know about employer matching and pensions. I got matching because I was exempt. I got nothing for the days before that job.
My dad having been an active union man from when unions began in the US forms my basis, which is in fact. I’ve been in unions and on the wrong end of being attacked by a union. They were horrible. But bottom line is since the industial revolution began, the fight for worker conditions was done by unionization. Not one thing would have been given without unions. It is a story so old Charles Dickens based many of his novels on worker conditions and the absolute authority of employers over their workers lives. So no, it is not a “feeling.”
At 20 years ahead, maybe I am closer to the days of non unions like my dad lived through than you are.
Just to give an idea, his work week was 12 hours per day 6 days per week. No vacation pay, sick leave, retirement, health plan, nothing. Can and were fired on a whim. He was fit like an athlete, like so many in that time, from work.

 

[PimTac]

"GM to Stop Making Gas-powered Cars"

Every product has a life cycle, like it or not. Right?

This is true. The transition can be hard or smooth depending on the individual and the speed of the transition. The blacksmiths knew the end was coming and they had time to plan.

Humans don’t like sudden changes and with the speed of change in the last couple of decades so has the tensions and angst have risen.