GM, south of the border and South America

[FXjohn]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: opus1
Mandarin would probably be more useful -- it'd be nice to be able to talk to the people who will eventually own us outright...


Definitely more useful than Spanish. At least they loan the US money.

yeah instead of slave labor

yuk yuk

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Trav
No you wait a minute. How do you figure Spanish is the most useful language now?


NAFTA, many factories down south and if you want any jobs that would sent you down there once in a while, it would be useful if you can supervise labors directly instead of through a middle man because you cannot speak the language.

At my work place there are people who got sent to factory to supervise once in a while. Despite their middle men (factory engineers) know English, things do get lost in translation and could only be found out if you talk to the technicians or labor directly.

I would imagine it is the same if the factory is down in Latin America instead of in China. Yes you can mandate Chinese / Mandarin because there are more factories there, but I think going from English to a completely different system of language that has no alphabet (based on pictures and oracles) would be much harder than going to Spanish. Also typical Americans working in America would likely use more Spanish at work than Chinese, I'd imagine.


Quote:
How about making English mandatory for all these Spanish speakers instead of offering courses in Spanish to them in American schools.


You are mixing up ESL classes with foreign language courses. I am not saying everyone should learn math or physics in Spanish. I'm saying everyone should be required to learn Spanish so they can keep up with it and use it once they graduate, as it would be beneficial to finding jobs later on that requires it. Don't get your emotion mixed up with this just because you don't like immigrants. The rest of the world, especially Asia, has English as their second languages (instead of choices in Latin, Germany, Korean, Japanese, etc) because it helps them find jobs later on. What is so hard to understand that knowing a popular language in a manufacturing base would help career?

Quote:
I know an American that stayed on in Germany with wife and kids. His son was kept back 2 years in school and sent for special courses because his German skills were not good enough.
They did not lower the standard for the whole class because of his communication deficiency.


But they do learn English in Germany, all my German coworkers speak good English because that is good for career. Imagine if they only speak German how would they work internationally? I know enough smart people that couldn't grow their career because of their language skill (i.e. foreigners working in the US or American working in Asia), a lot of this has to do with the quality of their education system when they were younger and it is much harder to learn it right after you grow up. So why not learn it right when you are younger?

Quote:
My god these kids are darn near illiterate in English and deficient in most other subjects and you want to mandate Spanish?


Like I said, you are mixing up ESL courses (teaching math in Spanish, for example) with foreign language (non Spanish people learning Spanish) for their own career growth.

Quote:
No offence but you really really need to wake up out of this fog.


No offense, you need to learn how to read English.

 

[Trav]

NAFTA? Are you serious?
English is the international language of business period!
Originally Posted By: Pandabear
You are mixing up ESL classes with foreign language courses. I am not saying everyone should learn math or physics in Spanish. I'm saying everyone should be required to learn Spanish so they can keep up with it and use it once they graduate

Boy did you miss that by a country mile.
They are teaching native Spanish speakers in Spanish in some American schools for god sake while ignoring their English skills.

Originally Posted By: Pandabear
Don't get your emotion mixed up with this just because you don't like immigrants

I AM AN IMMIGRANT!

You questioning my English reading skills must mean your anti immigrant also.
Originally Posted By: Pandabear
No offense, you need to learn how to read English

Come to my country and speak/read my language so i can criticise you.

Originally Posted By: Pandbear
But they do learn English in Germany, all my German coworkers speak good English because that is good for career

Germans like myself who grew up in the American and British sectors learned English, it was mandatory at that time. My kids did learn English because of the internet and the simple fact that most international trade deals are done in English (not bloody Spanish). It stopped being mandatory in 2000 IIRC but still offered as a language elective and most do take it.

The people from the former GDR (DDR) learned Russian not English, it was also mandatory for them. Most older Germans do not speak English.
If you want to cater to to these people thats your business but if someone wants to live and work in the US or do business with a US company then learn English PERIOD or get your tired backside back to the third world banana republic you came from.

 

[Eosyn]

Pandabear, I think you're misunderstanding Trav's POV. You said Spanish should be mandatory because of NAFTA and if one wants a manufacturing job, they'd need to travel to mexico or wherever to work and knowing "their" language would be so much easier. The point of going to their country, you should learn their language first, I agree. Which is what Trav is saying.

There are millions of Spanish-speaking people working in America (legally or illegally) who doesn't speak a single word of English and instead of mandating them to learn the language of the land they are in, we're making Americans learn Spanish so that they don't have to learn English, all the while students now-a-days aren't speaking/writing English correctly and whenever they get corrected on the forums, they start griping about the "grammar police."

There shouldn't even be an option on the phone menu to "press 1 for English." or signs at McDonald's in Spanish here in America. If they choose to come to this country, where English is the language used, they need to learn English, just like you said about Spanish if one were to relocate themselves to a land where Spanish is the language.

What if someone doesn't plan on working outside of America? Why should they be required to learn Spanish? or if a child is already having enough trouble with English, why confuse them more with a foreign language?

I'm bilingual myself. I speak English and Vietnamese and people always ask me if I'm teaching my daughter (8 yrs old) Vietnamese and my answer is no. Why they ask? Because my child has Asburgers' Syndrome and introducing her to another language that's not used everyday in America would just confuse her more. My point here is for her to learn English first and foremost, then when she's ready, she can learn a 2nd language, if she so desire.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Eosyn
Pandabear, I think you're misunderstanding Trav's POV. You said Spanish should be mandatory because of NAFTA and if one wants a manufacturing job, they'd need to travel to mexico or wherever to work and knowing "their" language would be so much easier. The point of going to their country, you should learn their language first, I agree. Which is what Trav is saying.

There are millions of Spanish-speaking people working in America (legally or illegally) who doesn't speak a single word of English and instead of mandating them to learn the language of the land they are in, we're making Americans learn Spanish so that they don't have to learn English, all the while students now-a-days aren't speaking/writing English correctly and whenever they get corrected on the forums, they start griping about the "grammar police."

There shouldn't even be an option on the phone menu to "press 1 for English." or signs at McDonald's in Spanish here in America. If they choose to come to this country, where English is the language used, they need to learn English, just like you said about Spanish if one were to relocate themselves to a land where Spanish is the language.

What if someone doesn't plan on working outside of America? Why should they be required to learn Spanish? or if a child is already having enough trouble with English, why confuse them more with a foreign language?

I'm bilingual myself. I speak English and Vietnamese and people always ask me if I'm teaching my daughter (8 yrs old) Vietnamese and my answer is no. Why they ask? Because my child has Asburgers' Syndrome and introducing her to another language that's not used everyday in America would just confuse her more. My point here is for her to learn English first and foremost, then when she's ready, she can learn a 2nd language, if she so desire.



Exactly. The problem is all too many US school systems are catering to these people and lowering the standards across the board for English proficiency skills.
These kids need to be up to snuff in English first before messing around with other languages.

I read the stats on a local high school that has a large Hispanic student body. The English proficiency level is horrific but they insist on promoting the Spanish program so the English speakers can communicate with them.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Trav
NAFTA? Are you serious?
English is the international language of business period!


English is the minimum requirement of business, and if you only want your children to settle for minimum requirement, fine. I think a lot more people have higher standard and expectation and less emotional problem with additional requirements.


Originally Posted By: Pandabear
Boy did you miss that by a country mile.
They are teaching native Spanish speakers in Spanish in some American schools for god sake while ignoring their English skills.


No, you miss what I said by a country mile, you are mixing up English As a Second Language courses for the non speaker that is under achieving to transition them into English based course. I am talking about for native English speaker to learn more than just English so they can get ahead in their career.

Originally Posted By: Pandabear
I AM AN IMMIGRANT!

You questioning my English reading skills must mean your anti immigrant also.


I am also an immigrant (non Spanish speaker), and I question your English reading skill because you do have an interpretation problem of understanding what is so basic: I'm talking about higher standard in school for native English speaker, yet you keep bringing up ESL courses in Spanish for Spanish speakers that do not know English.

You can talk to every non American in the world that know English and they will all say you have English reading problem. BTW, English is not my first language either.

Originally Posted By: Pandbear
Germans like myself who grew up in the American and British sectors learned English, it was mandatory at that time. My kids did learn English because of the internet and the simple fact that most international trade deals are done in English (not bloody Spanish). It stopped being mandatory in 2000 IIRC but still offered as a language elective and most do take it.


Exactly, so if you already have English as your first language, do you want to just settle for it? or do you want to pick up another foreign language that is most valuable in career in the US? Just because you have problem with some people not able to learn English in this country doesn't make learning Spanish evil like you make it to be.

Quote:
The people from the former GDR (DDR) learned Russian not English, it was also mandatory for them. Most older Germans do not speak English.
If you want to cater to to these people thats your business but if someone wants to live and work in the US or do business with a US company then learn English PERIOD or get your tired backside back to the third world banana republic you came from.


So, if I'm a German business owner, do I hire older GDR/DDR who speak Russian? or do I hire older West German who speak English? most like I'd say hire someone that is more valuable and can deal with a larger customer or labor base. The same in the US, and in this bloody thread of "GM, south of the border and South America" about jobs that travel to these places' factories, not some bloody under performing students whose first language is not English. This is about another tool that would not be a limitation in your career later on if your boss want you to manage a team that are not all English speakers (either in the US or in another country).

As I said previously, I have 1 coworker who couldn't work with the factory as effectively because of the labors having to talk to the engineers (not the best English translators) and a lot of the potential problems were not discovered until much later, much bigger, and much more expensive to fix. Another not so capable coworker (but knows the language of the factory labors) replaced him for the role and suddenly things got a lot smoother in the factory.

...and you are talking about these factory in their home countries need to learn English to do low cost jobs... or if they move to the US having to learn English...

If I am a boss and the people I sent to supervise the factory yell at the workers for not speaking English instead of finding ways to get things going (we call this throwing the technicians under the bus), I'd fire him immediately.

 

[mechanicx]

We all should learn Spanish so NAFTA can more easily outsource more jobs south of the border and to make the US more welcoming for illegal alien workers

.

I have to be at least about 1500 miles from the US/Mexico border, but recently I've noticed many more Mexicans around town than there has been. It seems whenever the economy supposedly picks up or immigration "reform" is talked about illegals show up in droves. We need to make the US even more welcoming

. This land is our land, this land is Mexico's land..

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Eosyn
Pandabear, I think you're misunderstanding Trav's POV. You said Spanish should be mandatory because of NAFTA and if one wants a manufacturing job, they'd need to travel to mexico or wherever to work and knowing "their" language would be so much easier. The point of going to their country, you should learn their language first, I agree. Which is what Trav is saying.

There are millions of Spanish-speaking people working in America (legally or illegally) who doesn't speak a single word of English and instead of mandating them to learn the language of the land they are in, we're making Americans learn Spanish so that they don't have to learn English, all the while students now-a-days aren't speaking/writing English correctly and whenever they get corrected on the forums, they start griping about the "grammar police."

There shouldn't even be an option on the phone menu to "press 1 for English." or signs at McDonald's in Spanish here in America. If they choose to come to this country, where English is the language used, they need to learn English, just like you said about Spanish if one were to relocate themselves to a land where Spanish is the language.

What if someone doesn't plan on working outside of America? Why should they be required to learn Spanish? or if a child is already having enough trouble with English, why confuse them more with a foreign language?

I'm bilingual myself. I speak English and Vietnamese and people always ask me if I'm teaching my daughter (8 yrs old) Vietnamese and my answer is no. Why they ask? Because my child has Asburgers' Syndrome and introducing her to another language that's not used everyday in America would just confuse her more. My point here is for her to learn English first and foremost, then when she's ready, she can learn a 2nd language, if she so desire.



Eosyn,

Believe me, I do share a lot of the frustration you and Trav have about press 1 for English and other special cases for people who just don't get it.

I do have opinion about whether special consideration should be given to these, and whether it is a offensive to give these special consideration (i.e. it is very difficult for some older people to pick up a language vs it is just lazy for youngster to not learn English).

And I keep a close eye on school district performance, so I know all about lowering standard lowering achievement of the students.

However, why limit the children's future career by limiting their skills? If they are not doing well, I can understand about making cases for them to stay with only 1 language, working in only one nation (we are lucky that the rest of the world speak English so we are not that limited), but why set a lower standard just because of the emotion that "there are lazy people not learning English so I shouldn't bow down to their level"? If I am a boss I wouldn't hire people with this kind of attitude even if I have translators and hire people that do not have English problems, because that would be a limitation on my business.

Rant off. I agree with Trav's frustration, and understand his emotion, but I do not agree with his logic of settling for less because of the emotion.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear


English is the minimum requirement of business, and if you only want your children to settle for minimum requirement, fine. I think a lot more people have higher standard and expectation and less emotional problem with additional requirements.


I really don't think you are following what Trav's saying. He's speaking as to the general state of the American school system, and on top of the poor performance in English, there seems to be accommodations made for Spanish-speakers rather than coaching them to learning the native tongue. Frustrating when even the natives appear to be doing incredibly poorly at learning their native language.

Quote:

No, you miss what I said by a country mile, you are mixing up English As a Second Language courses for the non speaker that is under achieving to transition them into English based course. I am talking about for native English speaker to learn more than just English so they can get ahead in their career.


You two are making two very different points and both appear to be missing what each other is saying.

Originally Posted By: Pandabear

I am also an immigrant (non Spanish speaker), and I question your English reading skill because you do have an interpretation problem of understanding what is so basic: I'm talking about higher standard in school for native English speaker, yet you keep bringing up ESL courses in Spanish for Spanish speakers that do not know English.

You can talk to every non American in the world that know English and they will all say you have English reading problem. BTW, English is not my first language either.


I'm not American and I can certainly say that Trav doesn't have an English reading problem. I think the issue here is that we have two guys who both don't have English as their native tongue duking it out in English and there are some nuances that are being lost in translation. You both speak "differently" than I do for example, your grammar is different and there are certain traits of your native tongue that slip into your speech (text). I can tell you are Asian by how you write. You can tell Trav isn't American by how he writes. I believe this is a big contributor to you both perhaps "not getting" what the other is saying.

Originally Posted By: Pandbear

Exactly, so if you already have English as your first language, do you want to just settle for it? or do you want to pick up another foreign language that is most valuable in career in the US? Just because you have problem with some people not able to learn English in this country doesn't make learning Spanish evil like you make it to be.


He's not saying learning Spanish is evil. He's saying that there should be more focus on American citizens learning English and fewer accommodations for those whose native language isn't English. I can identify with his frustration here.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Trav
The people from the former GDR (DDR) learned Russian not English, it was also mandatory for them. Most older Germans do not speak English.
If you want to cater to to these people thats your business but if someone wants to live and work in the US or do business with a US company then learn English PERIOD or get your tired backside back to the third world banana republic you came from.


So, if I'm a German business owner, do I hire older GDR/DDR who speak Russian? or do I hire older West German who speak English? most like I'd say hire someone that is more valuable and can deal with a larger customer or labor base. The same in the US, and in this bloody thread of "GM, south of the border and South America" about jobs that travel to these places' factories, not some bloody under performing students whose first language is not English. This is about another tool that would not be a limitation in your career later on if your boss want you to manage a team that are not all English speakers (either in the US or in another country).


You are again missing Trav's point. His earlier example about the American boy learning German and being held back in the German school system for not acquiring enough proficiency in the language is exactly the kind of thing I would imagine you can identify with. The goal is ACHIEVEMENT not ACCOMODATION. Why drag those who work hard down to the level of the lowest common denominator? Why lower your standards so that more kids "pass"? Trav's not saying to ban Spanish language classes from schools. He's saying that there should be greater focus on people's proficiency in their native tongue and that standards across the board should be higher. This means that you don't have Spanish accommodation programs for those that don't speak English, rather you'd focus on them learning English, like their peers, and if the English kids wanted to learn Spanish to be better equipped for the working world, then they should be given that opportunity as well.

What he's frustrated with is the apparent trend of simply making accommodations for those who move here and don't speak the language. Instead of aiding them in becoming better at English, those around them are encouraged to learn THEIR language. This does not encourage integration. This promotes alienation and animosity. I believe he took your initial point as an encouragement of this process, and I could see how it could be interpreted that way too.

Quote:


...and you are talking about these factory in their home countries need to learn English to do low cost jobs... or if they move to the US having to learn English...

If I am a boss and the people I sent to supervise the factory yell at the workers for not speaking English instead of finding ways to get things going (we call this throwing the technicians under the bus), I'd fire him immediately.


That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying Americans should know English, Germans should know German, Mexicans should know Spanish....etc. If an individual wants to better his chances at working abroad by learning something else, so be it, but the focus in school for a given country should be the native tongue and being proficient in it. Something we aren't seeing a lot of these days.

 

[JHZR2]

Exactly. Accomidations are the name of the game, especially for certain groups that are "desirable" for certain reasons.

 

[FXjohn]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

. He's saying Americans should know English, Germans should know German, Mexicans should know Spanish....etc. If an individual wants to better his chances at working abroad by learning something else, so be it, but the focus in school for a given country should be the native tongue and being proficient in it. Something we aren't seeing a lot of these days.


should some languages ever go extinct?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: FXjohn
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

. He's saying Americans should know English, Germans should know German, Mexicans should know Spanish....etc. If an individual wants to better his chances at working abroad by learning something else, so be it, but the focus in school for a given country should be the native tongue and being proficient in it. Something we aren't seeing a lot of these days.


should some languages ever go extinct?


I don't know, what do you think? I'm currently working on learning German. Not because I need it, but because I'm fascinated by the country, its history, my familial ties to it, and the fact that it is something new for me. If somebody has the aptitude to learn another language as an adult, I think there are certainly a host of benefits to doing so, one of which is that keeping the mind active works to ward off metal erosion in later years, and things like dementia. It also means that you are able to be a bit more adventurous if you choose to travel for example.

My father is an Anthropologist and we've discussed languages that are now "lost" among various native groups. Language is a fascinating topic in and of itself.

 

[FXjohn]

true. in the end it looks like we will have English, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, French, German, Russian, Italian and Portuguese, maybe a few otheres i Left out

 

[Trav]

Believe me i have no problem comprehending what i read.
Originally Posted By: Pandabear
So, if I'm a German business owner, do I hire older GDR/DDR who speak Russian? or do I hire older West German who speak English?

You hire neither! You hire a native speaking Russian with good German skills, a person with the ability to maneuver through the intricacies that complicate cross cultural communication of which language is just a single component of.
That is the point you are missing!

In many places in the US we are turning out some of the most illiterate students in history.
Let me give you an example. The Travon Martin trial when the black girl testified. She is a high school senior, if you watch the testimony she isn't as literate as a second grader was 30 years ago.
I am not bashing her i am just using her as an example, she should not even be in high school and you want to" MANDATE" she learns Spanish?
Good god man she cant speak, read or understand grade school English never mind another language.

My problem with your statement is the word MANDATE! Until the basic subjects and a reasonable level of proficiency is achieved in English foreign languages should be only available to those that already have high level of proficiency in the basics.

Originally Posted By: Pandabear
yet you keep bringing up ESL courses

I don't even know what that is, i never heard the term before. I don't need to know so don't bother.
You don't agree with my position so you question my basic reading skills a foreigner yourself with limited abilities in the English language yourself, the pot calling the kettle black.

Rest assured i understand perfectly but don't agree with you. In fact IMHO you seem clueless to the realities and deficiencies of the American school system in many parts of the country today!

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Trav
You hire neither! You hire a native speaking Russian with good German skills, a person with the ability to maneuver through the intricacies that complicate cross cultural communication of which language is just a single component of.
That is the point you are missing!


So, is it a given that Russian with good German skills would have no problem in cross cultural communication with the German employees for sure? but German with good Russian skills will for sure have problems?

I may be missing your point, but if I understand you correctly, you are saying that 1st world citizens are not worth the trouble learning 3rd world language because they wouldn't be able to do cross cultural communication. On the other hand, the 3rd world employees should have no problem (or be forced to).

What if you cannot hire Russian with good German skill? do you permanently exclude your Eastern German with good Russian skill because they aren't good enough?

Quote:
In many places in the US we are turning out some of the most illiterate students in history.
Let me give you an example. The Travon Martin trial when the black girl testified. She is a high school senior, if you watch the testimony she isn't as literate as a second grader was 30 years ago.
I am not bashing her i am just using her as an example, she should not even be in high school and you want to" MANDATE" she learns Spanish?
Good god man she cant speak, read or understand grade school English never mind another language.


I agree with you, since the 1st post you mention about this. There are too many students here graduates with insufficient English skills (I've seen too many of them in my college English class).

But, you have been missing my points. Let me spell it out to you plain and simple: 1) Just because there are bad students in the US, does not mean we do not have a good median (average is a bad choice mathematically) of students that are good in English, and they are perfectly fine being mandates to learn foreign language without suffering in their English skills. 2) Students benefit a lot learning foreign language that are useful (vs say Latin, IMO), and mandating a useful foreign language is good for them. Maybe mandate is too harsh of a choice, but putting some stress on them usually result in better performance instead of just giving them a copy of Rosetta Stone or a dictionary. 3) I do not think it is right to lower standard on the median, good achieving students just because there are poor performing students in the school. It has nothing to do with these poor performing student learning math in Spanish, and my school's Spanish courses for non native speakers shouldn't be eliminated to "take of the training wheel" for the native Spanish speakers, they are independent and completely unrelated subjects. I fail to see why are you throwing this into the discussion to begin with and I have to keep mentioning it.

Quote:
My problem with your statement is the word MANDATE!


I can buy that.

Quote:
Until the basic subjects and a reasonable level of proficiency is achieved in English foreign languages should be only available to those that already have high level of proficiency in the basics.


So my daughter who was born and grow up in the US, will not have Spanish courses until some other students in her school be proficient in their English?

You see, I do understand your point perfectly (which you sum it up well in this quote), but like I have mentioned over and over (as Eosyn mentioned) it is a completely unrelated discussion (student A's English proficiency vs student B's coursework should include Spanish or not).

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Pandabear
yet you keep bringing up ESL courses

I don't even know what that is, i never heard the term before. I don't need to know so don't bother.


English as a Second Language, as I have mentioned earlier. You don't know because you don't "read" so you don't need to know (which is why I say you have poor English reading skill, but now I think you just have poor attitude or don't want to bother in general since you don't need to know so you don't bother, yet you are attacking my points).

Quote:
You don't agree with my position so you question my basic reading skills a foreigner yourself with limited abilities in the English language yourself, the pot calling the kettle black.

Rest assured i understand perfectly but don't agree with you. In fact IMHO you seem clueless to the realities and deficiencies of the American school system in many parts of the country today!


1) I understand your point perfectly, but disagree with them, because you are mixing up 2 completely different subjects due to your own emotion.

2) I agree with your view on some part of the school system's deficiency (read my posts and find even one sentence that I say Spanish speaking students is not at fault or should be accommodated).

3) You mentioned

"No you wait a minute. How do you figure Spanish is the most useful language now?
How about making English mandatory for all these Spanish speakers instead of offering courses in Spanish to them in American schools. "

If you are criticizing my point because you misinterpret my point to begin with, you have no right calling me a bad reader.

Once again, I completely understand your points about poor English skills of many Spanish speaking students in some of the US schools. Yet you keep attacking a completely unrelated subject (Spanish language for native English speaker) because of your prejudice of this language and its usefulness (you said "
Lets talk about them learning English first and pass a law making English the official language of the USA before these immigrants (legal and otherwise) overrun us and mandate theirs.
I am sick to death of catering to these people and pressing 1 for English.")

I think I've wrote as much as I could about this. Thanks Eosyn and OVERKILL for the arbitration.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I really don't think you are following what Trav's saying. He's speaking as to the general state of the American school system, and on top of the poor performance in English, there seems to be accommodations made for Spanish-speakers rather than coaching them to learning the native tongue. Frustrating when even the natives appear to be doing incredibly poorly at learning their native language.


Agree. What I should have mentioned earlier, is that I do not believe expecting high standard in the general student body has to do with the lower achievement in some (even a large percentage) of poor performing student.

What I found in the US high school is that students are free to pick the level of courses they take. This is very different from other countries, so if you have some senior in high school taking math in Spanish, it doesn't mean the rest of the students couldn't take AP Calculus in English. The same logic applies even more in language. Native speakers doing well in the same school could take Spanish (and as I mentioned, should) without being affected by the Spanish speakers' inability or unwillingness to take English unless it is dumb down.

Quote:
He's not saying learning Spanish is evil. He's saying that there should be more focus on American citizens learning English and fewer accommodations for those whose native language isn't English. I can identify with his frustration here.


I also share this frustration, but I think this frustration shouldn't and doesn't affect the standard we put on the median and typical better performing students in the school. I don't think "grouping" these very different student body together and benchmark what we should force both of them to take regardless of their performance, is the right approach.

Unless you think having different standards on the better / doing not so well students are "accommodation".

Quote:
You are again missing Trav's point. His earlier example about the American boy learning German and being held back in the German school system for not acquiring enough proficiency in the language is exactly the kind of thing I would imagine you can identify with. The goal is ACHIEVEMENT not ACCOMODATION. Why drag those who work hard down to the level of the lowest common denominator? Why lower your standards so that more kids "pass"? Trav's not saying to ban Spanish language classes from schools. He's saying that there should be greater focus on people's proficiency in their native tongue and that standards across the board should be higher. This means that you don't have Spanish accommodation programs for those that don't speak English, rather you'd focus on them learning English, like their peers, and if the English kids wanted to learn Spanish to be better equipped for the working world, then they should be given that opportunity as well.

What he's frustrated with is the apparent trend of simply making accommodations for those who move here and don't speak the language. Instead of aiding them in becoming better at English, those around them are encouraged to learn THEIR language. This does not encourage integration. This promotes alienation and animosity. I believe he took your initial point as an encouragement of this process, and I could see how it could be interpreted that way too.


I should have explained better the first time around. This is my fault.

Quote:
That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying Americans should know English, Germans should know German, Mexicans should know Spanish....etc. If an individual wants to better his chances at working abroad by learning something else, so be it, but the focus in school for a given country should be the native tongue and being proficient in it. Something we aren't seeing a lot of these days.


I was wrong in accusing him of that. Sorry Trav, my apology.

One important point I would like to stress here is that language is one of those subjects that is very hard to be good at later on in life if you start learning it late.

If you do not mandate it early (for example since 1st grade), and wait till a student to start it in high school at will (instead of mandatory), you will get a very low performance as a result.

This is very obvious when you look at the same performance percentile students between Hong Kong, Singapore, China, Macau, and Taiwan. Those who perform well in English start in 1st grade as a mandatory course. Those who start them later do not do as well, by a huge margin.

Another point I want to make here that I might have missed: most students around the world do fine learning 2 languages (native language and a foreign language) in their school, so I do not believe their performance is related or taking a foreign language will affect their ability in their native language. Heck, most Americans are mandated to learn a foreign language as their high school graduation requirement anyways.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear


One important point I would like to stress here is that language is one of those subjects that is very hard to be good at later on in life if you start learning it late.

If you do not mandate it early (for example since 1st grade), and wait till a student to start it in high school at will (instead of mandatory), you will get a very low performance as a result.

This is very obvious when you look at the same performance percentile students between Hong Kong, Singapore, China, Macau, and Taiwan. Those who perform well in English start in 1st grade as a mandatory course. Those who start them later do not do as well, by a huge margin.

Another point I want to make here that I might have missed: most students around the world do fine learning 2 languages (native language and a foreign language) in their school, so I do not believe their performance is related or taking a foreign language will affect their ability in their native language. Heck, most Americans are mandated to learn a foreign language as their high school graduation requirement anyways.


As a Canadian who was born in Ontario, but who received the majority of my secondary and post-secondary education in New Brunswick, I have a great deal of first-hand experience with this.

In Ontario, the focus to learn French as a 2nd language is pretty low on the priority list (unless you put your child into French Immersion, but that's a separate topic). Sure, you are taught it in school, but it becomes an optional course once you get into secondary school.

In contrast, in New Brunswick, proficiency in French is given higher priority because the province itself is bilingual. Because of that, I am a lot better at French than your average Ontario citizen, despite the fact that I use it only on very rare occasions.

And this brings me to your last point about American kids not doing well in English and this not being related to them learning another language. This I am in agreement with. We learn French, yet I would argue that our (Canadian) English performance, if you look at our BITOG member population, is, on average, better for the Canadian members than it is the American ones. I would hazard to argue that this likely reflects the education situation in our countries. Is this a result of the massive difference in population? I don't know. But it is an observation I've made during my tenure on this board. It is food for thought, even if you don't necessarily agree with it

-Chris

 

[JANDSZIRKLE]

Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Fantastic. Great to know that GM is using our bailout dollars to provide jobs to Mexicans.

Signed, a manufacturing engineer who can speak Spanish very well.


this is old news. i worked for a company up till jan. 09 that made special tooling for GM. right before obamas bailout, they canned 1/3 of the work force due too lack of need for our tooling.

where do they get them from now? noone here in the USA i do know that for a fact. they opened a new plant in Brazil in 2008 coincidentally. im no genius, but i do know this was done under both repubs and dems watch. not trying too be political, too late though i guess, but many manufacturers have outsourced there production elsewhere.

i have since moved on too better pastures.

on the schooling issue, too many kids nowadays, and i have 5 kids, and am very involved with there education, have little or no direction from school or home. when they graduate, they have no idea what they want too do with themselves and make horrible decisions as a result. many are flooding our legal system with nonsense charges acting like fools every chance they get. i dont feel college is for everyone, if someone really wants too go, then by all means i say go for it. if someone wants too learn a trade, by all means go for it. i tell my kids all the time, follow your heart and you will never work a day in your life. its much easier too wake up too go do something you love versus something just too pay the bills.

my 2 cents.