GM posts $4.3 billion loss in July-December period

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Quote:
Many "import" car makers are opening design studios here. So the complaints about design work being done overseas are starting to ring untrue, as more and more of the work of not just building, but also designing the cars is being done in the US.


A design center or two? Seriously?

At 5.3 million square feet, the Chrysler Tech Center in Auburn Hills is the 19th largest building IN THE WORLD!

You could likely take every engineering center, research center, and design center that transplant automakers have built on U.S. soil and still not even come close to to the size Chrysler's single building.


The new Toyota research and engineering center in Ann Arbor is a very small operation. But it does let them say over and over that they have one here.

It was built at great cost to local and state tax payers as well. Big rich Toyota wouldn't come here without tax abatements and kickbacks dont ya know.....Nice how we get to subsidize our own downfall.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: javacontour
You haven't answered the question. Did Chrysler hire 40K workers to build engines? Is their domestic employment shrinking or growing?

What about GM? What about Ford? How is their net employment today compared to three or five years ago.

How about the same question for Toyota, or Honda, or Nissan, or Hyundai? Are they employing more or fewer employees here than they did three or five years ago?


So, the totals are meaningless, but discussion of one specific plant to build one specific truck is relevant?


You are the one saying totals are meaningless not me.

Quick history. Fifty years ago, in big round numbers, the domestic car makers had say 90-95% of the market share and close to 100% of the automotive work force.

Today, they have something closer to 50% of the market share, and by your own numbers, 65% of the work force.

Which means that other car makers have the other 50% of the market share, in rough numbers, and 35% of the automotive work force.

Which is actually getting better. Why? Because it started with an essentially 0% automotive work force percentage as all the cars were assembled overseas.

So numbers are important, but don't tell the whole story. One has to look at the direction those numbers are going, which is what I've been saying all along.

Contrary to what you assert, I've never said, nor even hinted that the numbers are not important. I've simply asked the question which direction are they going.

That's the number behind the number.

Think of it this way, if I'm about to hit another car on the freeway, my speed is an important number. What may be even more important is if my speed is increasing or decreasing and at what rate?

That's what I'm asking. By doing so doesn't negate the current value. But it asks the question, what is the trend? The current number is what it is. I, nor anyone else can change the past. However, if we look at the trend, which direction are the numbers going, we can act accordingly.

So if jobs is an important number, and we all believe it is, which is more important, knowing how many jobs we have today, or five years ago, or which direction that number is going?

So I ask about today and about five years ago to determine the direction a particular number is going.

Like the speed of the car that is in danger, I have to know more than just the speed, I have to know if the speed is increasing or decreasing to make a good decision about what to do next. If it's increasing, then I need to take my foot off the throttle and step on the brake to make the number go in the right direction.

I realize that's an oversimplification, and I hope it's not offensive. However, you totally misrepresent my point when you assert (falsely) that the number you cite is unimportant to me. It's important. But it's not the only number I believe we need to examine.

I'm not saying you are a rabid "Buy American" person here. I was speaking of them in the abstract, without naming names or making things personal. There are those who will cite the mantra, "Buy American" while giving their pet automaker a pass for cutting U.S. jobs.

I tend to believe we should support automakers who are ADDING NET JOBS to the US.

If Ford, GM and Chrysler are not doing that. If they are closing plants here and opening plants in China or Mexico, while at the same time BMW, Hyundai, etc are adding plants and new jobs they never before provided, then I think we send the economic signal that we support those who add net jobs and don't support those who move jobs outside the US.

In my estimation, to buy American has more to do with buying from those who are adding jobs to the US economy than it does with where a car company happens to plant it's HQ flag.

So the direction of that number you continue to cite gets closer to parity every day as domestic automakers find more and more ways to move production outside the US, while their "foreign" competitors find more ways to move production, and engineering and marketing, etc, to the US.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


I did answer your question, before you even asked it. The domestics employ 65+% of the total auto workforce here in the states. The transplants enjoy a much higher ratio of market share/total employment than the domestics. Anyone who makes the argument that the domestics dont do more for American workers and employment in general is just searching for rationilizations to excuse the transplants poor employment numbers here.

As to the question "now vs 4-5 years ago".....I have to wonder if you've ever even been inside an auto manufacturing plant. You said before that it takes "thousands" to build a car and only a few to engineer it. This isn't 1928 anymore, Ford doesnt need hundreds of thousands of laborers anymore. Modern manufacturing practices have drastically cut the numbers for EVERY manufacturer.

It's likely that Fords total labor numbers would have dropped over the last ten years even if the market was booming. Same can be said for almost all manufacturers...lean is in, has been for a while.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Still not one peep in response to my legitimate questions?

No need to further respond with more speculation and guesses as to what the future might hold if your not willing to answer an honest question.

History is fact, the future is tangible and can be changed. If America wakes up and realizes having a manufacturing base is an important thing, then your guesses about the future are out the window. Heck, maybe our government will even get smart and start using the same tactics the Japanese government has used against us for years. You know, playing with the value of the dollar, government subsidized and protected industries...maybe even some good old fashioned product dumping at the cost of the government to build our industry back up.

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: javacontour
You haven't answered the question. Did Chrysler hire 40K workers to build engines? Is their domestic employment shrinking or growing?

What about GM? What about Ford? How is their net employment today compared to three or five years ago.

How about the same question for Toyota, or Honda, or Nissan, or Hyundai? Are they employing more or fewer employees here than they did three or five years ago?


So, the totals are meaningless, but discussion of one specific plant to build one specific truck is relevant?

Funny, you yourself brought up the engine plant with new employees in Trenton, yet when Javacountour caught you in an inconsistency about Crysler shedding 40K job, you are turning it back onto Java, and complain about his nitpicking.

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: javacontour

I tend to believe we should support automakers who are ADDING NET JOBS to the US.

If Ford, GM and Chrysler are not doing that. If they are closing plants here and opening plants in China or Mexico, while at the same time BMW, Hyundai, etc are adding plants and new jobs they never before provided, then I think we send the economic signal that we support those who add net jobs and don't support those who move jobs outside the US.



Partially agree. For me it would be only a part of the buying decision. I would also look at the best Value=Price/Cost. If it happens to be Ford--great, Hyundai, so be it.
Ease of DIY, driving characteristics would also be a part of the overall decision.

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
History is fact, the future is tangible and can be changed. If America wakes up and realizes having a manufacturing base is an important thing, then your guesses about the future are out the window. Heck, maybe our government will even get smart and start using the same tactics the Japanese government has used against us for years. You know, playing with the value of the dollar, government subsidized and protected industries...maybe even some good old fashioned product dumping at the cost of the government to build our industry back up.

But if we have BMW, Hyuindai, Toyota, Subaru plants in the US, don't we count them as a part of out manufacturing base? We still keep skills and knowledge in the US.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Wow, now thats a twist. It's not inconsistent at all. I was merely pointing out that decrying the Ram going to Mexico is only part of the story. They add jobs here, take away there. But in the end, the domestics employ a much larger percentage of the total vs their market share.

It's fact and anything else, like Ram goes here, or Fusion get assembled there is just picking gnat feces from pepper. The numbers speak for themselves.

Since you chimed in, I'll give you the chance to answer the question. What would you have the domestic manufacturers do? Would you have them build all their cars here in the states? Would you propose that the transplants build all their cars here in the states?

Lots of finger pointing at Detroit for moving production offshore, but not a whimper when it comes to discussing the disparity of the total employment numbers vs market share....very curious. But understandable, when considering that some in here, still think that UA in Toyotas is just an occurence here in NA, even when confronted with Toyotas own documants that prove otherwise.

Some just dont want to know. Sorry my factual numbers based on current REALITY upset you guys......but it is fun seeing all the rationilizations that can be drummed up.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
History is fact, the future is tangible and can be changed. If America wakes up and realizes having a manufacturing base is an important thing, then your guesses about the future are out the window. Heck, maybe our government will even get smart and start using the same tactics the Japanese government has used against us for years. You know, playing with the value of the dollar, government subsidized and protected industries...maybe even some good old fashioned product dumping at the cost of the government to build our industry back up.

But if we have BMW, Hyuindai, Toyota, Subaru plants in the US, don't we count them as a part of out manufacturing base? We still keep skills and knowledge in the US.



So in your expert estimation, it's the guys who screw the car together that comprise the "skill" and "knowledge" behind building a car?

Enjoy your bone.

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
History is fact, the future is tangible and can be changed. If America wakes up and realizes having a manufacturing base is an important thing, then your guesses about the future are out the window. Heck, maybe our government will even get smart and start using the same tactics the Japanese government has used against us for years. You know, playing with the value of the dollar, government subsidized and protected industries...maybe even some good old fashioned product dumping at the cost of the government to build our industry back up.

But if we have BMW, Hyuindai, Toyota, Subaru plants in the US, don't we count them as a part of out manufacturing base? We still keep skills and knowledge in the US.



So in your expert estimation, it's the guys who screw the car together that comprise the "skill" and "knowledge" behind building a car?

Enjoy your bone.


Let's see, Kia opened a design studio in Califiornia (still a part of US, I think), both Kia and Hyundai have US engineers working in their Alabama and Georgia plants. I'd say they have more skills and knowledge than some over-paid Chrysler executive or middle manager that did not learn anything from the 1980's Chrysler bailout.

Enjoy replacing rear suspension on your Cherokee every 30K miles.

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Since you chimed in, I'll give you the chance to answer the question. What would you have the domestic manufacturers do? Would you have them build all their cars here in the states? Would you propose that the transplants build all their cars here in the states?

Simple
Ford--keep doing what you are doing, you make great cars, and I do not care where they are made. My next car will be a Ford, Hyundai or Kia, depending on the outcome of my search. See my original post for the criteria.

GM--make whole all those investors whose money was taken when New GM was given over to UAW. Pay back the loan to US Taxpayers. Keep building better quality cars, like you already have. Stop waving "Buy American" flag, unless you decide to move ALL production and engineering back into US. I do not expect you to do it, so just be honest, and do not use a guilt trip on the people.

Chrysler--make whole all those investors whose money was taken when Chrysler was given over to Fiat. Pay back the loan to US Taxpayers. Keep building better quality cars, you still have a ways to go. Stop waving "Buy American" flag, unless you decide to move ALL production and engineering back into US. I do not expect you to do it, so just be honest, and do not use a guilt trip on the people.

I am not expecting "domestics" or "imports" to make all their cars in US. Ford is cashing in on their European expertise (new Fiesta), GM is using Opel (Saturn Astra), it is a good thing. In turn, you do not begrudge BMW if they a bring German-designed car to be assembled in South Carolina.

 

[mechanicx]

Only in America does it seem you find people who will try to argue that foreigners and imports taking over the previously established domestic industry's market share is equivalent or even a good thing. But if you don't believe that foreigners taking over US markets is a good thing, then you are frozen-in-time "protectionist". Or at least that's what the propaganda news and media says lol. Oh well what are you going to do? It's inevitable.

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Only in America does it seem you find people who will try to argue that foreigners and imports taking over the previously established domestic industry's market share is equivalent or even a good thing. But if you don't believe that foreigners taking over US markets is a good thing, then you are frozen-in-time "protectionist". Or at least that's what the propaganda news and media says lol. Oh well what are you going to do? It's inevitable.


Well, "foreign" cars forced domestics to innovate, so it WAS a good thing. Loosing market share did not happen overnight. Besides, we had a tariff on foreign-made cars that made them more expensive than domestics. Congress passed it specifically to give domestic companies time to adjust. They wasted the chance.

Look at it in reverse. We export computer knowledge and software. Japan runs on MS Windows. Was it bad for Japanese economy???

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Still not one peep in response to my legitimate questions?



Really? I have answered your questions, but apparently, you are unwilling to acknowledge the answers.

I'll type more slowly, perhaps you will understand this time.

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


No need to further respond with more speculation and guesses as to what the future might hold if your not willing to answer an honest question.



L e t ' s , s e e. I a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t i o n , r e f u t e , y o u r f a l s e a s s e r t i o n s a b o u t w h a t I c a r e a b o u t a n d w h a t I d o n ' t a n d y o u s t i l l m a k e f a l s e s t a t e m e n t s a b o u t w h a t I s a i d .
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


History is fact, the future is tangible and can be changed.



Speaking of speculation...

Yes, history is a fact, and as I've stated, the facts are the percentage of foreign car maker domestic jobs has gone from effectively 0% to your asserted 35%. While at the same time, the percentage of auto making jobs that are provided by domestic car makers is down from an effective 100% 50 years ago to only 65% of the total number of car maker jobs today.

In the same period, domestic car makers once made close to 100% of the cars sold in America, and that percentage has dropped to about 50%, meaning the rest of the world's car makers make the other 50%

So, if we look at history, the past 50 years shows us that domestic car makers are exporting jobs and importing cars, while the import car makers have done the opposite. They have a net gain of jobs and a net reduction of imported cars as a percentage of cars sold.

All the while, the domestic car companies want American's to buy American, while they demonstrate they are unwilling or unable to follow the advice they provide their customers.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

If America wakes up and realizes having a manufacturing base is an important thing, then your guesses about the future are out the window. Heck, maybe our government will even get smart and start using the same tactics the Japanese government has used against us for years. You know, playing with the value of the dollar, government subsidized and protected industries...maybe even some good old fashioned product dumping at the cost of the government to build our industry back up.


If it's to their advantage to build in Japan, then why are these auto makers opening more plants in the US?

Subsidies are largely unsustainable. So while a government may be able to prop up an industry in a temporary fashion, they cannot do so indefinitely.

Now states are giving tax breaks to automakers who locate plants in their states. There is no reason the big three cannot do the same? Who says the big three have to keep building cars in the rust belt? Why not move to Alabama, or TN, etc.

The question is why can foreign car makers build cars profitably in the US, while US car makers have to go to Mexico to be profitable?

Since the work force is largely the same in the US, the American worker, it must be something the management. One might blame the UAW, but really, the management chooses to keep working with the UAW, so I don't blame the UAW. If the management is dumb enough to keep going with the higher labor costs, then that's on management.

So management chooses the less confrontational route, moving the production to Mexico.

One might ask why the UAW makes it more appealing for car makers to go to Mexico than to remain in the US, but that's another big hairy thread.

What do I think the domestics need to do? I think they need to be serious with the UAW. They need to show them the reality of the past 50 years, that more and more jobs are going overseas and the trend will continue if something doesn't reduce the costs of labor in the domestic plant.

The domestics need to be honest with customers and stop with the "Buy American" hypocrisy while they are buying cars and major assemblies from overseas.

Either be 100% American produced if they are going to advise their customers to do the same, or say let the best win in a world wide market, and be honest about it.

No whining about the problems they have, or how competition isn't fair. The world isn't fair. I don't think anyone expects it to be. We WANT it to be, but to expect that is not realistic.

Business is war. War is not fair. War is not won by being fair, it's won by being better, stronger, faster than your enemy.

War and business is not won by complaining about your competition. It's won by figuring out how to beat your competition.

At one time, I suspect GM was larger than the entire Japanese economy. So GM didn't get beat because the Japanese car makers got government help. It got beat because it sqandered it's relative advantage until it's competitors became as powerful as they are.

So stop whining, stop begging, and return to what made the US car makers number one. One can't do anything about what your competitors do. But you can control what you do.

Therefore whining about customers, or competitors does nothing to make the US car makers better than the competition.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: javacontour


Really? I have answered your questions, but apparently, you are unwilling to acknowledge the answers.

I'll type more slowly, perhaps you will understand this time.


L e t ' s , s e e. I a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t i o n , r e f u t e , y o u r f a l s e a s s e r t i o n s a b o u t w h a t I c a r e a b o u t a n d w h a t I d o n ' t a n d y o u s t i l l m a k e f a l s e s t a t e m e n t s a b o u t w h a t I s a i d .


Being a condescending prat suits you well.

Good day to you Sir.

 

[javacontour]

You were the one who said I didn't answer your questions when I did. So what am I to conclude? Either you refused or failed to understand.

Apparently it's you refuse, since you simply walk away, instead of acknowledging what I've answered over and over again.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Simple:

GM is the Golden Goose.

All parties involved RAN IT INTO THE GROUND.

How much do assy workers make over a lifetime? How much do the execs make? They all milk it for as much as they possibly can.

It all comes out of the final product's intrinsic value, which has been [censored] for as long as I can remember.

GM is a metaphor for everything wrong in America...it IS America.

On the other hand, I like the Astra, but it's the exception that proves the rule.

 

[Autobahn88]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Simple:

GM is the Golden Goose.

All parties involved RAN IT INTO THE GROUND.

How much do assy workers make over a lifetime? How much do the execs make? They all milk it for as much as they possibly can.

It all comes out of the final product's intrinsic value, which has been [censored] for as long as I can remember.

GM is a metaphor for everything wrong in America...it IS America.

On the other hand, I like the Astra, but it's the exception that proves the rule.

Amen. Very simple and well put. Does it really matter where these auto makers originate from. As long as they decide to build plants and R&D facilites in North America, they are creating thousands of jobs which is a boost for the North American economy. Competition is good.

 

[marty600]

Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris

Look at it in reverse. We export computer knowledge and software. Japan runs on MS Windows. Was it bad for Japanese economy???


I program CNC machines, unfortunately, 2 are japanese. Made 3 years apart, yet the NT 4.0 running the control has the exact same serial number.
These guys pirate our software, bigtime, everybody knows it!!!
I would turn them in, but the machines break down so often that I am stuck with them and their "service". I act polite and get info to fix the darned things, they charge 150 hr. to come out. To me, that's "2 timing thievery"! (software, labor)

 

[rszappa1]

WOW this post has been busy overnight...... Good Morning to all and lets have a cup of coffee....

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: marty600
Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris

Look at it in reverse. We export computer knowledge and software. Japan runs on MS Windows. Was it bad for Japanese economy???


I program CNC machines, unfortunately, 2 are japanese. Made 3 years apart, yet the NT 4.0 running the control has the exact same serial number.
These guys pirate our software, bigtime, everybody knows it!!!
I would turn them in, but the machines break down so often that I am stuck with them and their "service". I act polite and get info to fix the darned things, they charge 150 hr. to come out. To me, that's "2 timing thievery"! (software, labor)


I'm guessing the CNC manufacturer has purchased a Volume License Key from Microsoft. This would allow them to install NT 4.0 on multiple machines using the same serial number.