GM Fell Behind Toyota in 2008

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
I didn't say that your experiences don't have merrit, just that I have seen a lot of problems with BIG-3 vehicles that discredit the experiences IMO. My dad although involved with Chrysler has serviced many makes/models of vehicles not just theirs. I would agree with you that if I was going to buy any of the BIG-3 I would choose a FORD and not the other two. FORD always IMO been the best out of the BIG-3 but I wouldn't buy one at the moment... Once the BIG-3 pull their heads out of the sand I will go back.


So does the epic failure that a good friend's wife had with her Elantra discredit yours? This works both ways.......

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
and the fact that of the Big Three, the only one not going [censored]-up right now is Ford...... The only one to be rated "on par" in terms of quality with the Japanese..... is Ford. The only one to beat-out the Japanese fuel economy with their own Hybrid implementation again... is Ford.



OVERK1LL, it's not all Ford doing good. GM has done well also and GM has more models at 30mpg than ANY other maker. Ford is doing very well lately, but I think Lincoln is going downhill fast as far as design. But I am on board with you because we both support our country.

According to the most recent JD Powers quality survey:

Mercury and Cadillac are rated ABOVE Toyota
Buick and Lincoln are ahead of Honda
Ford is ahead of Infiniti
Chrysler and Dodge ahead of Mini, Scion and Volvo
Of the 10 brands at the bottom of the list, 8 are imports

---above from the Jan 2009 issue of Ward's AutoWorld page 8.

One area I disagree with OVERK1LL is in Hybrids. GM, with the latest 2Mode models are way ahead of Ford. GM is also ahead in other areas like electric power and hydrogen fuel cell research. Of course, hydrogen isn't going anywhere and we don't know yet how the Volt will do.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: StevieC
I didn't say that your experiences don't have merrit, just that I have seen a lot of problems with BIG-3 vehicles that discredit the experiences IMO. My dad although involved with Chrysler has serviced many makes/models of vehicles not just theirs. I would agree with you that if I was going to buy any of the BIG-3 I would choose a FORD and not the other two. FORD always IMO been the best out of the BIG-3 but I wouldn't buy one at the moment... Once the BIG-3 pull their heads out of the sand I will go back.


So does the epic failure that a good friend's wife had with her Elantra discredit yours? This works both ways.......


Yes it does... I just haven't had my sisters fail and she abuses the [censored] out of it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
and the fact that of the Big Three, the only one not going [censored]-up right now is Ford...... The only one to be rated "on par" in terms of quality with the Japanese..... is Ford. The only one to beat-out the Japanese fuel economy with their own Hybrid implementation again... is Ford.



OVERK1LL, it's not all Ford doing good. GM has done well also and GM has more models at 30mpg than ANY other maker. Ford is doing very well lately, but I think Lincoln is going downhill fast as far as design. But I am on board with you because we both support our country.

According to the most recent JD Powers quality survey:

Mercury and Cadillac are rated ABOVE Toyota
Buick and Lincoln are ahead of Honda
Ford is ahead of Infiniti
Chrysler and Dodge ahead of Mini, Scion and Volvo
Of the 10 brands at the bottom of the list, 8 are imports

---above from the Jan 2009 issue of Ward's AutoWorld page 8.

One area I disagree with OVERK1LL is in Hybrids. GM, with the latest 2Mode models are way ahead of Ford. GM is also ahead in other areas like electric power and hydrogen fuel cell research. Of course, hydrogen isn't going anywhere and we don't know yet how the Volt will do.


I know, but I have next to zero experience with newer GM's, so I cannot comment on them. That is your job

I can only speak positive of my first-hand experience with Ford products. The hybrid example I was commenting on exists in a thread in this section.

One of GM's big mistakes is partnering with companies it is now trying to compete against.... Re-badging a Toyota as a Pontiac, and using a Honda powertrain in a Saturn did not do wonders for GM's reputation....

A lot of guys in the local Mustang club work at GM and Ford. I have no reason to switch what I buy, neither does my family. Like Bigfoot and Unicorns, apparently happy, domestic buying families like mine don't exist

 

[StevieC]

The reason we switched is because at the time we did we had a reason... So far Hyundai/Kia and other brands have been good to us so we will stick with them. When they are not then we will switch again. Gotta stick with what works... FORD works for you, GM works for GMBoy and Hyundai/Kia works for me. I was merely stating why I didn't think the BIG-3 were up to par and it was all based on what I have seen/experienced because of my dad being a Mechanic that is all...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: StevieC
I didn't say that your experiences don't have merrit, just that I have seen a lot of problems with BIG-3 vehicles that discredit the experiences IMO. My dad although involved with Chrysler has serviced many makes/models of vehicles not just theirs. I would agree with you that if I was going to buy any of the BIG-3 I would choose a FORD and not the other two. FORD always IMO been the best out of the BIG-3 but I wouldn't buy one at the moment... Once the BIG-3 pull their heads out of the sand I will go back.


So does the epic failure that a good friend's wife had with her Elantra discredit yours? This works both ways.......


Yes it does... I just haven't had my sisters fail and she abuses the [censored] out of it.



Driving style or maintenance? Because if it is the former I'd argue any Mustang or F-body has been driven much, MUCH harder......

 

[StevieC]

Not sure what you mean...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Not sure what you mean...


Does she abuse her vehicle via lack of maintenance or does she drive the living [censored] out of it?

 

[StevieC]

Both... Oil changes when she remembers 15,000km some times and she changes with whatever Jiffy Lube/Walmart is offering this month... Tune-ups when it's not running properly, ran the Radiator half dry and was wondering why her cooling gauge was fluctuating all over. Drives in stop/go with all the accessories running at full and calls my dad to ask why the battery light flickers sometimes. Starts the car and then drives like a formula-1 driver down the road right away... She has been in 3 accidents with it. NEED I SAY MORE!

 

[crazyoildude]

in our engine shop we see more and more Japanese and korean engines.. Look at the Toyota v6 sludge problems that engine helped me put my kids through college.. Im not saying Japanese cars are bad they are not what im saying is American cars are just as good, Think about it GM has a 5 yr 100,000 mile warrantee on some of their drivetrains.. Hyundai has a good warrantee also... But where are all these cars made? Almost all the Japanese cars are made in America Some of the American cars are made oversees its now a mix and match world when it comes to cars..

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: StevieC

Why I have seen the problems I have seen my dad fix with BIG-3 cars?


Your dad doesn't fix the cars that don't have problems. I'm friends with a couple of guys who own a repair shop..on any given day when I stop by to see what they're doing, they're often working on imports, some with pretty serious problems.

The only conclusion I could draw from that is that all cars eventually break.

 

[StevieC]

But he did do general maintenance on these cars so we can track their service life and which ones seemed to be in more often than others...

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Drives in stop/go with all the accessories running at full and calls my dad to ask why the battery light flickers sometimes.


That would be because the alternator is either bad, or more likely, undersized for the electrical load.

As a data point, the Ford Contour and the Ford Taurus both have a 130-amp alternator that can output 80 amps at idle...and I've measured 95 amps at idle from the 120 amp alternator in my Saab. The tech at the Saab dealership told me they'll actually put out 160 amps when you load them with a carbon pile.

I put the 130-amp alternator from a Taurus in my 1988 Mustang GT, by the way. I was going to put an electric cooling fan in but I never got around to it. I expect the bigger alternator will help the battery last longer, in any case.

 

[StevieC]

Hers has a 90 amp because it was replaced about 20,000KM ago. But this complaint of hers was around a year ago... I suspect its because she does a lot of frequent short trips and restarts and idles in traffic with a tong of accessories on like the defogger for rear window, the A/C for the front window, the fan on high, the headlights, wipers... BTW: A/C still working after all these miles although it has a slow leak that needs a recharge every 2 years or so... Not bad for a car with this many miles...

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
But he did do general maintenance on these cars so we can track their service life and which ones seemed to be in more often than others...

The problem with doing that is that you don't know about the customer who takes their car elsewhere for service. I don't always take my car to the same shop for everything.

 

[StevieC]

My dad was the cheapest in town and did so so that he was always busy and could put extras in our house... HE would even do the B.S. oil changes and wiper changes... Trust me we saw everything that went on with at least 80-90% of the vehicles...

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Hers has a 90 amp because it was replaced about 20,000KM ago. But this complaint of hers was around a year ago... I suspect its because she does a lot of frequent short trips and restarts and idles in traffic with a tong of accessories on like the defogger for rear window, the A/C for the front window, the fan on high, the headlights, wipers... BTW: A/C still working after all these miles although it has a slow leak that needs a recharge every 2 years or so... Not bad for a car with this many miles...


I can see why there are problems. A 90 amp alternator is pretty small for a vehicle with an electric engine cooling fan, which I am sure your sister's car has.

My 1988 Mustang came with a 75-amp alternator. But it did not have an electric engine cooling fan, which takes at least 20 amps (and is always running with the AC on).

The 75-amp alternator, on a car like the 1988 Mustang which, unlike modern cars, does not have a whole lot of electrical accessories, was still not really adequate to keep the battery charged in stop and go traffic with the wipers going, headlights on, etc.

Now I have an alternator in there which, at idle, puts out more current than the original one did at full-throttle.

The A/C still works on my 1988 Mustang AND it's been converted to R134A. I have to get it charged every 3-4 years.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
My dad was the cheapest in town


Perhaps what you saw is related to how the sort of person who takes their car to the cheapest guy in town treats their equipment.

 

[StevieC]

It is a 2000 so maybe the design wasn't the greatest... It still puts up with her abuse though... My Santa Fe has a 120 or 140 Amp from what I have read in the Technical Manual.

Anyways... She abuses it and it takes it so that's gotta say something about the quality... Since 2000 the quality has gotten better and they have won awards, so what is it like now? Time will tell.

I hope I can come back here in a few years and post that I have achieved my goal of 500,000KM or more...

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
It is a 2000 so maybe the design wasn't the greatest...


I can use that excuse for my 1988 Mustang..I'm not so sure you can use it for a 2000 model year anything