Sure I can... Hyundai made some of the worst vehicles on the road up until the late 90's IMO. So that's why I said it. It has only been in the last 6 years or so that they really have started working on them being #1 in Quality.
GM Fell Behind Toyota in 2008
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Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Hers has a 90 amp because it was replaced about 20,000KM ago. But this complaint of hers was around a year ago... I suspect its because she does a lot of frequent short trips and restarts and idles in traffic with a tong of accessories on like the defogger for rear window, the A/C for the front window, the fan on high, the headlights, wipers... BTW: A/C still working after all these miles although it has a slow leak that needs a recharge every 2 years or so... Not bad for a car with this many miles...
I can see why there are problems. A 90 amp alternator is pretty small for a vehicle with an electric engine cooling fan, which I am sure your sister's car has.
My 1988 Mustang came with a 75-amp alternator. But it did not have an electric engine cooling fan, which takes at least 20 amps (and is always running with the AC on).
The 75-amp alternator, on a car like the 1988 Mustang which, unlike modern cars, does not have a whole lot of electrical accessories, was still not really adequate to keep the battery charged in stop and go traffic with the wipers going, headlights on, etc.
Now I have an alternator in there which, at idle, puts out more current than the original one did at full-throttle.
The A/C still works on my 1988 Mustang AND it's been converted to R134A. I have to get it charged every 3-4 years.
The 2G alternators were actually 65-amp!
I've got a 130A SN95 3G on my old girl (electric fan conversion) and I never looked back. I did the same to my Lincoln as well (Mark VIII electric fan).
I agree, I don't think a 2000 has an excuse to have an undersized alternator on it......
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Hers has a 90 amp because it was replaced about 20,000KM ago. But this complaint of hers was around a year ago... I suspect its because she does a lot of frequent short trips and restarts and idles in traffic with a tong of accessories on like the defogger for rear window, the A/C for the front window, the fan on high, the headlights, wipers... BTW: A/C still working after all these miles although it has a slow leak that needs a recharge every 2 years or so... Not bad for a car with this many miles...
I can see why there are problems. A 90 amp alternator is pretty small for a vehicle with an electric engine cooling fan, which I am sure your sister's car has.
My 1988 Mustang came with a 75-amp alternator. But it did not have an electric engine cooling fan, which takes at least 20 amps (and is always running with the AC on).
The 75-amp alternator, on a car like the 1988 Mustang which, unlike modern cars, does not have a whole lot of electrical accessories, was still not really adequate to keep the battery charged in stop and go traffic with the wipers going, headlights on, etc.
Now I have an alternator in there which, at idle, puts out more current than the original one did at full-throttle.
The A/C still works on my 1988 Mustang AND it's been converted to R134A. I have to get it charged every 3-4 years.
The 2G alternators were actually 65-amp!
I've got a 130A SN95 3G on my old girl (electric fan conversion) and I never looked back. I did the same to my Lincoln as well (Mark VIII electric fan).
I agree, I don't think a 2000 has an excuse to have an undersized alternator on it......
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
This could go on forever.....
Bottom line is we all are what we've been exposed to. I have had great luck with GM, Jeep and Ford Vehicles. Yeah, some little problems here and there, but these are mass produced machines and even the holier than thou imports have 'em too. Based on my life long experiences and research, I prefer American products and dislike imports. From cars to what few other things I can find, I try to buy USA whenever I can.
Stevie likes Hyundais because they've served him well. Do I like Hyundai? Of course not, but I'm not going to mock him on what works for him - even though I can think of some nice GM products that I'd love to see him in that I think are better than his Sante Fe.
As a GM employee (quality mgr) I am working my hardest to make the day come that people like Stevie and others here will turn back to GM. That day is not here yet, but it will come. It is hard to win back a customer lost, but we're getting better every day.
I'm done now
Great Post! Really. I wish you wouldn't leave the conversation, but I do understand it's rather frustrating.
Wishing you all the best at winning customers back AND turning a profit making cars.
I'll be watching, FWIW.
This could go on forever.....
Bottom line is we all are what we've been exposed to. I have had great luck with GM, Jeep and Ford Vehicles. Yeah, some little problems here and there, but these are mass produced machines and even the holier than thou imports have 'em too. Based on my life long experiences and research, I prefer American products and dislike imports. From cars to what few other things I can find, I try to buy USA whenever I can.
Stevie likes Hyundais because they've served him well. Do I like Hyundai? Of course not, but I'm not going to mock him on what works for him - even though I can think of some nice GM products that I'd love to see him in that I think are better than his Sante Fe.
As a GM employee (quality mgr) I am working my hardest to make the day come that people like Stevie and others here will turn back to GM. That day is not here yet, but it will come. It is hard to win back a customer lost, but we're getting better every day.
I'm done now
Great Post! Really. I wish you wouldn't leave the conversation, but I do understand it's rather frustrating.
Wishing you all the best at winning customers back AND turning a profit making cars.
I'll be watching, FWIW.
Lets look at reality:
1. GM, and Chrysler are basically on life support. If it was not for "YOU and I" providing subsidies to help them, where would they be? If a business model is failing, there is a problem. Our recommendation is you find out what is not working and fix it quick! We believe it is not a good idea to wait decades to make changes.
2. Ford had positioned themselves before the fallout. They appear to be in somewhat better shape than GM and Chrysler. I placed my cold hard cash in the Ford camp by purchasing their stock a few months back. We are hopeful that they will rebound, and we will make a sizable profit. So I hope some of you are correct. Did I by Toyota stock? No? How many of you have purchased stock in GM, Ford or Chrysler lately? And if you say NO, why not?
3. Last I checked the majority of us are transplants to the United States. I know of very few that are American Indians.
4. Tundra truck plant in Texas shut down in 2008. What happened to the workers, the 4000 of them? They were sent to school, paid, until production commenced. What were they sent to school to learn? The were sent to work on refining the production process better, and to find better ways to produce a better product. Folks, I don't know about your thoughts on this, but I believe that I would want to work for a company that looks as each employee as an investment, not a liability.
Lets look at this further:
We have owned 6 GM products since 1985. Is there experience owning a GM? Yes. I gave GM 6 attempts, not 1, not 2. We have also witnessed family members that owned/own GM, Ford, and Chrysler products. Problems? Many. So much so they had to get rid of some of the vehicles before they were payed for. Was this recent? Yes. Is this acceptable? I would hope most of you would say "no".
In the future would I buy a GM product? We would hope that I will be able to buy a GM product. We did not in 2008, when we could have.
Finally:
If you are losing in a football game and its late in the 3rd quarter, you don't yell and scream at the other team for scoring a touchdown, or complain to the ref that they should not allow the score since it is unfair, do you? No. What do you do? You find a way to make each and every play the best. You do not quit until the whistle is blown, on each and every play. In doing this, you will eventually see progress, and opportunities evolve that will place you in a position to win. If you win congratulations. If you lose, you learn from your mistakes and use that as "learning experiences". You do not repeat the prior mistakes that caused you to lose the game. Why? Cause chances are you will lose again.
1. GM, and Chrysler are basically on life support. If it was not for "YOU and I" providing subsidies to help them, where would they be? If a business model is failing, there is a problem. Our recommendation is you find out what is not working and fix it quick! We believe it is not a good idea to wait decades to make changes.
2. Ford had positioned themselves before the fallout. They appear to be in somewhat better shape than GM and Chrysler. I placed my cold hard cash in the Ford camp by purchasing their stock a few months back. We are hopeful that they will rebound, and we will make a sizable profit. So I hope some of you are correct. Did I by Toyota stock? No? How many of you have purchased stock in GM, Ford or Chrysler lately? And if you say NO, why not?
3. Last I checked the majority of us are transplants to the United States. I know of very few that are American Indians.
4. Tundra truck plant in Texas shut down in 2008. What happened to the workers, the 4000 of them? They were sent to school, paid, until production commenced. What were they sent to school to learn? The were sent to work on refining the production process better, and to find better ways to produce a better product. Folks, I don't know about your thoughts on this, but I believe that I would want to work for a company that looks as each employee as an investment, not a liability.
Lets look at this further:
We have owned 6 GM products since 1985. Is there experience owning a GM? Yes. I gave GM 6 attempts, not 1, not 2. We have also witnessed family members that owned/own GM, Ford, and Chrysler products. Problems? Many. So much so they had to get rid of some of the vehicles before they were payed for. Was this recent? Yes. Is this acceptable? I would hope most of you would say "no".
In the future would I buy a GM product? We would hope that I will be able to buy a GM product. We did not in 2008, when we could have.
Finally:
If you are losing in a football game and its late in the 3rd quarter, you don't yell and scream at the other team for scoring a touchdown, or complain to the ref that they should not allow the score since it is unfair, do you? No. What do you do? You find a way to make each and every play the best. You do not quit until the whistle is blown, on each and every play. In doing this, you will eventually see progress, and opportunities evolve that will place you in a position to win. If you win congratulations. If you lose, you learn from your mistakes and use that as "learning experiences". You do not repeat the prior mistakes that caused you to lose the game. Why? Cause chances are you will lose again.
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
Lets look at reality:
1. GM, and Chrysler are basically on life support. If it was not for "YOU and I" providing subsidies to help them, where would they be? If a business model is failing, there is a problem. Our recommendation is you find out what is not working and fix it quick! We believe it is not a good idea to wait decades to make changes.
2. Ford had positioned themselves before the fallout. They appear to be in somewhat better shape than GM and Chrysler. I placed my cold hard cash in the Ford camp by purchasing their stock a few months back. We are hopeful that they will rebound, and we will make a sizable profit. So I hope some of you are correct. Did I by Toyota stock? No? How many of you have purchased stock in GM, Ford or Chrysler lately? And if you say NO, why not?
3. Last I checked the majority of us are transplants to the United States. I know of very few that are American Indians.
4. Tundra truck plant in Texas shut down in 2008. What happened to the workers, the 4000 of them? They were sent to school, paid, until production commenced. What were they sent to school to learn? The were sent to work on refining the production process better, and to find better ways to produce a better product. Folks, I don't know about your thoughts on this, but I believe that I would want to work for a company that looks as each employee as an investment, not a liability.
Lets look at this further:
We have owned 6 GM products since 1985. Is there experience owning a GM? Yes. I gave GM 6 attempts, not 1, not 2. We have also witnessed family members that owned/own GM, Ford, and Chrysler products. Problems? Many. So much so they had to get rid of some of the vehicles before they were payed for. Was this recent? Yes. Is this acceptable? I would hope most of you would say "no".
In the future would I buy a GM product? We would hope that I will be able to buy a GM product. We did not in 2008, when we could have.
Finally:
If you are losing in a football game and its late in the 3rd quarter, you don't yell and scream at the other team for scoring a touchdown, or complain to the ref that they should not allow the score since it is unfair, do you? No. What do you do? You find a way to make each and every play the best. You do not quit until the whistle is blown, on each and every play. In doing this, you will eventually see progress, and opportunities evolve that will place you in a position to win. If you win congratulations. If you lose, you learn from your mistakes and use that as "learning experiences". You do not repeat the prior mistakes that caused you to lose the game. Why? Cause chances are you will lose again.
Nice post, I didn't know that Toyota sent some of their employees to school when the plant shut down.
Lets look at reality:
1. GM, and Chrysler are basically on life support. If it was not for "YOU and I" providing subsidies to help them, where would they be? If a business model is failing, there is a problem. Our recommendation is you find out what is not working and fix it quick! We believe it is not a good idea to wait decades to make changes.
2. Ford had positioned themselves before the fallout. They appear to be in somewhat better shape than GM and Chrysler. I placed my cold hard cash in the Ford camp by purchasing their stock a few months back. We are hopeful that they will rebound, and we will make a sizable profit. So I hope some of you are correct. Did I by Toyota stock? No? How many of you have purchased stock in GM, Ford or Chrysler lately? And if you say NO, why not?
3. Last I checked the majority of us are transplants to the United States. I know of very few that are American Indians.
4. Tundra truck plant in Texas shut down in 2008. What happened to the workers, the 4000 of them? They were sent to school, paid, until production commenced. What were they sent to school to learn? The were sent to work on refining the production process better, and to find better ways to produce a better product. Folks, I don't know about your thoughts on this, but I believe that I would want to work for a company that looks as each employee as an investment, not a liability.
Lets look at this further:
We have owned 6 GM products since 1985. Is there experience owning a GM? Yes. I gave GM 6 attempts, not 1, not 2. We have also witnessed family members that owned/own GM, Ford, and Chrysler products. Problems? Many. So much so they had to get rid of some of the vehicles before they were payed for. Was this recent? Yes. Is this acceptable? I would hope most of you would say "no".
In the future would I buy a GM product? We would hope that I will be able to buy a GM product. We did not in 2008, when we could have.
Finally:
If you are losing in a football game and its late in the 3rd quarter, you don't yell and scream at the other team for scoring a touchdown, or complain to the ref that they should not allow the score since it is unfair, do you? No. What do you do? You find a way to make each and every play the best. You do not quit until the whistle is blown, on each and every play. In doing this, you will eventually see progress, and opportunities evolve that will place you in a position to win. If you win congratulations. If you lose, you learn from your mistakes and use that as "learning experiences". You do not repeat the prior mistakes that caused you to lose the game. Why? Cause chances are you will lose again.
Nice post, I didn't know that Toyota sent some of their employees to school when the plant shut down.
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
We have owned 6 GM products since 1985. Is there experience owning a GM? Yes. I gave GM 6 attempts, not 1, not 2. We have also witnessed family members that owned/own GM, Ford, and Chrysler products. Problems? Many. So much so they had to get rid of some of the vehicles before they were payed for.Was this recent? Yes. Is this acceptable? I would hope most of you would say "no".
This has happened to me twice in a row with GM products and has now hurt me financially as I have over $25K in debt from 2 GM lemons to pay off...
Would GM help me out at trade in time? NO. So, I no longer trust GM and can no longer financially afford to take the risk associated with buying their products. I gave them a "second chance" and bought new after getting a $45k lemon. So if any of you GM lovers wants to send me a check for $25k....sure I'll go back again. Anything short of that...forget it.
We have owned 6 GM products since 1985. Is there experience owning a GM? Yes. I gave GM 6 attempts, not 1, not 2. We have also witnessed family members that owned/own GM, Ford, and Chrysler products. Problems? Many. So much so they had to get rid of some of the vehicles before they were payed for.Was this recent? Yes. Is this acceptable? I would hope most of you would say "no".
This has happened to me twice in a row with GM products and has now hurt me financially as I have over $25K in debt from 2 GM lemons to pay off...
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
We have owned 6 GM products since 1985. Is there experience owning a GM? Yes. I gave GM 6 attempts, not 1, not 2. We have also witnessed family members that owned/own GM, Ford, and Chrysler products. Problems? Many. So much so they had to get rid of some of the vehicles before they were payed for.Was this recent? Yes. Is this acceptable? I would hope most of you would say "no".
This has happened to me twice in a row with GM products and has now hurt me financially as I have over $25K in debt from 2 GM lemons to pay off...
Would GM help me out at trade in time? NO. So, I no longer trust GM and can no longer financially afford to take the risk associated with buying their products. I gave them a "second chance" and bought new after getting a $45k lemon. So if any of you GM lovers wants to send me a check for $25k....sure I'll go back again. Anything short of that...forget it.
Careful now you will get shot down about how great their quality is and how the Japanese have an equal amount of problems like I did a few posts ago...
These things just don't happen PT1, not even with a mechanic that has seen 35+ years and worked for one of the Big-3 like my dad.
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
We have owned 6 GM products since 1985. Is there experience owning a GM? Yes. I gave GM 6 attempts, not 1, not 2. We have also witnessed family members that owned/own GM, Ford, and Chrysler products. Problems? Many. So much so they had to get rid of some of the vehicles before they were payed for.Was this recent? Yes. Is this acceptable? I would hope most of you would say "no".
This has happened to me twice in a row with GM products and has now hurt me financially as I have over $25K in debt from 2 GM lemons to pay off...
Careful now you will get shot down about how great their quality is and how the Japanese have an equal amount of problems like I did a few posts ago...
These things just don't happen PT1, not even with a mechanic that has seen 35+ years and worked for one of the Big-3 like my dad.
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
Lets look at reality:
1. GM, and Chrysler are basically on life support. If it was not for "YOU and I" providing subsidies to help them, where would they be? If a business model is failing, there is a problem. Our recommendation is you find out what is not working and fix it quick! We believe it is not a good idea to wait decades to make changes.
The reality of it is that for years the Japanese government has given Toyota the leg-up by providing its domestic workers socialized healthcare and placing severe tariffs on imported vehicles. I won't mention the additional ridiculous taxes they place on vehicles with large displacement engines--not on vehicles with poor economy or emissions, but specifically large displacement *cough* American engines. This has put Toyota in a position to milk our economy dry, bring all that value back to Japan, and simultaneously dodge the astronomical costs associated with providing employee benefits.
GM is only on "life support" because Toyota has been on "life support" since the beginning. They've been competing with a company that has had an unfair advantage since the start. If we really cared--and I realize we don't (I do)--we'd place a tariff on vehicle imports to cover the cost of healthcare and benefits for the UAW. But heaven forbid we interfere with the so-called "free market," instead we'll just make the American tax payer foot the bill. If we knew what was good for us we'd have taxed Toyota USA into history a long time ago, and our entire economy would be in better shape because of it.
Lets look at reality:
1. GM, and Chrysler are basically on life support. If it was not for "YOU and I" providing subsidies to help them, where would they be? If a business model is failing, there is a problem. Our recommendation is you find out what is not working and fix it quick! We believe it is not a good idea to wait decades to make changes.
The reality of it is that for years the Japanese government has given Toyota the leg-up by providing its domestic workers socialized healthcare and placing severe tariffs on imported vehicles. I won't mention the additional ridiculous taxes they place on vehicles with large displacement engines--not on vehicles with poor economy or emissions, but specifically large displacement *cough* American engines. This has put Toyota in a position to milk our economy dry, bring all that value back to Japan, and simultaneously dodge the astronomical costs associated with providing employee benefits.
GM is only on "life support" because Toyota has been on "life support" since the beginning. They've been competing with a company that has had an unfair advantage since the start. If we really cared--and I realize we don't (I do)--we'd place a tariff on vehicle imports to cover the cost of healthcare and benefits for the UAW. But heaven forbid we interfere with the so-called "free market," instead we'll just make the American tax payer foot the bill. If we knew what was good for us we'd have taxed Toyota USA into history a long time ago, and our entire economy would be in better shape because of it.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
PT1 said:These things just don't happen PT1, not even with a mechanic that has seen 35+ years and worked for one of the Big-3 like my dad.
I've got numerous mechanic friends, one is a senior master certified Ford tech. He sees them all come through the dealership, most newer vehicles, including Hyundai. I brought up this thread yesterday, his response? First, laughter, then, "I don't think anyone is building better vehicles than Ford right now."
We all have personal experiences...
Oh yeah... Working at a dealership doesn't give him a warped view...
Thanks I needed a good laugh, I have a stressful week ahead with work!
Thanks I needed a good laugh, I have a stressful week ahead with work!
Actually it doesn't. He is a line tech, meaning he gets do deal with Ford's ever diminishing warranty times.
That also means Ford's recent policies regarding lower warranty rates and their new "quick lanes" have cut into his bottom line.
His experience is more valid than your father's regarding current quality, IMO.
That also means Ford's recent policies regarding lower warranty rates and their new "quick lanes" have cut into his bottom line.
His experience is more valid than your father's regarding current quality, IMO.
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Originally Posted By: StevieC
Oh yeah... Working at a dealership doesn't give him a warped view...
Thanks I needed a good laugh, I have a stressful week ahead with work!
Driving a Hyundai doesn't give you a warped view?
I think we are all existing within our own little circles of dementia based on what has worked for us...
I know a PILE of guys who work at GM and drive Ford products (many are members of the local Mustang club) so how are they, working for GM, given a warped view if they don't even drive GM vehicles?
Oh yeah... Working at a dealership doesn't give him a warped view...
Thanks I needed a good laugh, I have a stressful week ahead with work!
Driving a Hyundai doesn't give you a warped view?
I think we are all existing within our own little circles of dementia based on what has worked for us...
I know a PILE of guys who work at GM and drive Ford products (many are members of the local Mustang club) so how are they, working for GM, given a warped view if they don't even drive GM vehicles?
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
Lets look at reality:
1. GM, and Chrysler are basically on life support. If it was not for "YOU and I" providing subsidies to help them, where would they be? If a business model is failing, there is a problem. Our recommendation is you find out what is not working and fix it quick! We believe it is not a good idea to wait decades to make changes.
The reality of it is that for years the Japanese government has given Toyota the leg-up by providing its domestic workers socialized healthcare and placing severe tariffs on imported vehicles. I won't mention the additional ridiculous taxes they place on vehicles with large displacement engines--not on vehicles with poor economy or emissions, but specifically large displacement *cough* American engines. This has put Toyota in a position to milk our economy dry, bring all that value back to Japan, and simultaneously dodge the astronomical costs associated with providing employee benefits.
GM is only on "life support" because Toyota has been on "life support" since the beginning. They've been competing with a company that has had an unfair advantage since the start. If we really cared--and I realize we don't (I do)--we'd place a tariff on vehicle imports to cover the cost of healthcare and benefits for the UAW. But heaven forbid we interfere with the so-called "free market," instead we'll just make the American tax payer foot the bill. If we knew what was good for us we'd have taxed Toyota USA into history a long time ago, and our entire economy would be in better shape because of it.
If GM, Ford, and Chrysler were better at building a vehicle I do not believe there would be a problem, now would there? Toyota has steadily moved up the chain due to the competition. The good news is change can happen.
As far as socialized, last I checked we were bailing out privately owned companies with tax dollars. I for one have a problem with supporting a failure with my hard earned dollars. A better solution is to let free markets dictate. If GM or Chrysler were companies worthy of ownership, Toyota would have already scooped them up. Toyota is merely taking advantage of market opportunities.
Like I said earlier in this thread, Toyota is manufacturing here in the USA. The Toyota's I have purchased the last 6 years are all made here. So I do not know what you mean about taxing an import? Lets cover this again:
1.-Tacoma- built at NUMMI, Fremont, California with UAW workers. Parts content US made about 60% in 2003. Designed by US engineers at Calty Design Center. NUMMI plant is joint owned by GM.
2. -Tundra-built at TMMX, San Antonio, Texas. Parts content 90% North American, US parts. Engines built in Alabama. Design at Calty Design Facility.
1 and 2 hardly quantify as imports, but, if you insist on calling it that, its your opinion.
Case in point, and this may help some, it may not:
1. The computer most of you are using to read this is from mostly imported components. I build my own computers. Is the computer I build in Florida considered an import? Yes-No? Lets go further. If the components used in the computer are mostly built in the USA and assembled here considered imported? So how do you propose we tax again more products imported? How do you think that would effect all of us? So would you be willing to send the government more money because you want to buy that big screen TV? Please explain how this will help? Explain how taxing UAW workers at the NUMMI plant will benefit us?
The solution is simple. Build a better product the people will buy.
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
Lets look at reality:
1. GM, and Chrysler are basically on life support. If it was not for "YOU and I" providing subsidies to help them, where would they be? If a business model is failing, there is a problem. Our recommendation is you find out what is not working and fix it quick! We believe it is not a good idea to wait decades to make changes.
The reality of it is that for years the Japanese government has given Toyota the leg-up by providing its domestic workers socialized healthcare and placing severe tariffs on imported vehicles. I won't mention the additional ridiculous taxes they place on vehicles with large displacement engines--not on vehicles with poor economy or emissions, but specifically large displacement *cough* American engines. This has put Toyota in a position to milk our economy dry, bring all that value back to Japan, and simultaneously dodge the astronomical costs associated with providing employee benefits.
GM is only on "life support" because Toyota has been on "life support" since the beginning. They've been competing with a company that has had an unfair advantage since the start. If we really cared--and I realize we don't (I do)--we'd place a tariff on vehicle imports to cover the cost of healthcare and benefits for the UAW. But heaven forbid we interfere with the so-called "free market," instead we'll just make the American tax payer foot the bill. If we knew what was good for us we'd have taxed Toyota USA into history a long time ago, and our entire economy would be in better shape because of it.
If GM, Ford, and Chrysler were better at building a vehicle I do not believe there would be a problem, now would there? Toyota has steadily moved up the chain due to the competition. The good news is change can happen.
As far as socialized, last I checked we were bailing out privately owned companies with tax dollars. I for one have a problem with supporting a failure with my hard earned dollars. A better solution is to let free markets dictate. If GM or Chrysler were companies worthy of ownership, Toyota would have already scooped them up. Toyota is merely taking advantage of market opportunities.
Like I said earlier in this thread, Toyota is manufacturing here in the USA. The Toyota's I have purchased the last 6 years are all made here. So I do not know what you mean about taxing an import? Lets cover this again:
1.-Tacoma- built at NUMMI, Fremont, California with UAW workers. Parts content US made about 60% in 2003. Designed by US engineers at Calty Design Center. NUMMI plant is joint owned by GM.
2. -Tundra-built at TMMX, San Antonio, Texas. Parts content 90% North American, US parts. Engines built in Alabama. Design at Calty Design Facility.
1 and 2 hardly quantify as imports, but, if you insist on calling it that, its your opinion.
Case in point, and this may help some, it may not:
1. The computer most of you are using to read this is from mostly imported components. I build my own computers. Is the computer I build in Florida considered an import? Yes-No? Lets go further. If the components used in the computer are mostly built in the USA and assembled here considered imported? So how do you propose we tax again more products imported? How do you think that would effect all of us? So would you be willing to send the government more money because you want to buy that big screen TV? Please explain how this will help? Explain how taxing UAW workers at the NUMMI plant will benefit us?
The solution is simple. Build a better product the people will buy.
I never said that Hyundai was the be all/end-all I said it's working for me now and when it doesn't like the BIG-3 have in the past I will switch. No manufactuer is perfect, some are better than others and only personal experience will help you determine the best one. I was merely stating that Hyundai/Kia have been good for us and the BIG-3 have not. As I stated time and time again, I would go back to them when they meet my needs and win back my confidence, till then they can go bankrupt IMO.
A FORD Guy working in a Dealership has more of a warped view of FORD Quality etc. IMO than one who does not. It could be that he is right but more likely that he is going with the brand he works for because he needs to justify the brand to himself because it's where he works... Dunno.
I have seen the "Dealership" guys who are of the mindset "Oh the company builds the best stuff in the world" meanwhile the company is known for building garbage.
I could care less what people drive and I'm not some spokes person for Hyundai or any other company I was merely stating my experiences and why I think that those make me right in my decision. You (as in everyone out there) choose to drive whatever makes you happy and whatever lets you sleep at night.
I wouldn't drive a BIG-3 vehicle at this time because I don't have heap loads of money to spend on repairs over the long-term ownership as I see co-workers, friends, family, neighbours and my dads customer do on a regular basis. Who knows why they drive these cars, maybe they like paying, maybe we got shipped a ton of lemons in Ontario... I don't know or care... All I know is that I'm not going to be doing that, and have chosen to take my wallet to the Dealership that treats me like a person and sells me a worthwhile vehicle that gives me a good bang for my buck.
A FORD Guy working in a Dealership has more of a warped view of FORD Quality etc. IMO than one who does not. It could be that he is right but more likely that he is going with the brand he works for because he needs to justify the brand to himself because it's where he works... Dunno.
I have seen the "Dealership" guys who are of the mindset "Oh the company builds the best stuff in the world" meanwhile the company is known for building garbage.
I could care less what people drive and I'm not some spokes person for Hyundai or any other company I was merely stating my experiences and why I think that those make me right in my decision. You (as in everyone out there) choose to drive whatever makes you happy and whatever lets you sleep at night.
I wouldn't drive a BIG-3 vehicle at this time because I don't have heap loads of money to spend on repairs over the long-term ownership as I see co-workers, friends, family, neighbours and my dads customer do on a regular basis. Who knows why they drive these cars, maybe they like paying, maybe we got shipped a ton of lemons in Ontario... I don't know or care... All I know is that I'm not going to be doing that, and have chosen to take my wallet to the Dealership that treats me like a person and sells me a worthwhile vehicle that gives me a good bang for my buck.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
A FORD Guy working in a Dealership has more of a warped view of FORD Quality etc. IMO than one who does not. It could be that he is right but more likely that he is going with the brand he works for because he needs to justify the brand to himself because it's where he works... Dunno.
I don't think you understand the current dealership environment at all. Right now, everyone is trying to cut back. That means companies, especially the Big 3, are slashing warranty times to help reduce costs. Now, with your father being a mechanic for 35+ years, I'm sure I don't have to explain how a flat rate pay scale works.
Ford has also recently started a chain of "quick lubes" that dealerships use for basic service. What this serves to accomplish is to cut back on the trained line tech's "gravy" work, which is basic maintenance like 30Ks. A dealership with an on-site quick lane would much rather pay an untrained hourly guy who makes $12/hr to do basic maintenance rather than a flat rate tech who gets paid probably 2.5 times as much to do the same job.
Say what you want, but the dealership world is a cut-throat business right now, hardly the environment to generate warm and fuzzy feelings towards your employer.
Also, the senior master tech I am referring to works at a dealership with a rather large used car department. What does this mean? He works on many, many 1-3 year old vehicles from all makes. That includes Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Chevrolet, Chrysler, etc. A couple weeks ago he worked on a NAG1 trans from Chrysler 300.
What this boils down to is you are trying to tear down an example of personal experience I provided; because it is quickly tearing down that "leg" you stand on...the personal experience of you and your 35 year mechanic father.
Quote:
I wouldn't drive a BIG-3 vehicle at this time because I don't have heap loads of money to spend on repairs over the long-term ownership as I see co-workers, friends, family, neighbours and my dads customer do on a regular basis
A FORD Guy working in a Dealership has more of a warped view of FORD Quality etc. IMO than one who does not. It could be that he is right but more likely that he is going with the brand he works for because he needs to justify the brand to himself because it's where he works... Dunno.
I don't think you understand the current dealership environment at all. Right now, everyone is trying to cut back. That means companies, especially the Big 3, are slashing warranty times to help reduce costs. Now, with your father being a mechanic for 35+ years, I'm sure I don't have to explain how a flat rate pay scale works.
Ford has also recently started a chain of "quick lubes" that dealerships use for basic service. What this serves to accomplish is to cut back on the trained line tech's "gravy" work, which is basic maintenance like 30Ks. A dealership with an on-site quick lane would much rather pay an untrained hourly guy who makes $12/hr to do basic maintenance rather than a flat rate tech who gets paid probably 2.5 times as much to do the same job.
Say what you want, but the dealership world is a cut-throat business right now, hardly the environment to generate warm and fuzzy feelings towards your employer.
Also, the senior master tech I am referring to works at a dealership with a rather large used car department. What does this mean? He works on many, many 1-3 year old vehicles from all makes. That includes Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Chevrolet, Chrysler, etc. A couple weeks ago he worked on a NAG1 trans from Chrysler 300.
What this boils down to is you are trying to tear down an example of personal experience I provided; because it is quickly tearing down that "leg" you stand on...the personal experience of you and your 35 year mechanic father.
Quote:
I wouldn't drive a BIG-3 vehicle at this time because I don't have heap loads of money to spend on repairs over the long-term ownership as I see co-workers, friends, family, neighbours and my dads customer do on a regular basis
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: StevieC
I never said that Hyundai was the be all/end-all I said it's working for me now and when it doesn't like the BIG-3 have in the past I will switch. No manufactuer is perfect, some are better than others and only personal experience will help you determine the best one. I was merely stating that Hyundai/Kia have been good for us and the BIG-3 have not. As I stated time and time again, I would go back to them when they meet my needs and win back my confidence, till then they can go bankrupt IMO.
A FORD Guy working in a Dealership has more of a warped view of FORD Quality etc. IMO than one who does not. It could be that he is right but more likely that he is going with the brand he works for because he needs to justify the brand to himself because it's where he works... Dunno.
I have seen the "Dealership" guys who are of the mindset "Oh the company builds the best stuff in the world" meanwhile the company is known for building garbage.
I could care less what people drive and I'm not some spokes person for Hyundai or any other company I was merely stating my experiences and why I think that those make me right in my decision. You (as in everyone out there) choose to drive whatever makes you happy and whatever lets you sleep at night.
I wouldn't drive a BIG-3 vehicle at this time because I don't have heap loads of money to spend on repairs over the long-term ownership as I see co-workers, friends, family, neighbours and my dads customer do on a regular basis. Who knows why they drive these cars, maybe they like paying, maybe we got shipped a ton of lemons in Ontario... I don't know or care... All I know is that I'm not going to be doing that, and have chosen to take my wallet to the Dealership that treats me like a person and sells me a worthwhile vehicle that gives me a good bang for my buck.
You missed this line:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I know a PILE of guys who work at GM and drive Ford products (many are members of the local Mustang club) so how are they, working for GM, given a warped view if they don't even drive GM vehicles?
How do you know the Ford mechanic in question drives a Ford? You don't......
I never said that Hyundai was the be all/end-all I said it's working for me now and when it doesn't like the BIG-3 have in the past I will switch. No manufactuer is perfect, some are better than others and only personal experience will help you determine the best one. I was merely stating that Hyundai/Kia have been good for us and the BIG-3 have not. As I stated time and time again, I would go back to them when they meet my needs and win back my confidence, till then they can go bankrupt IMO.
A FORD Guy working in a Dealership has more of a warped view of FORD Quality etc. IMO than one who does not. It could be that he is right but more likely that he is going with the brand he works for because he needs to justify the brand to himself because it's where he works... Dunno.
I have seen the "Dealership" guys who are of the mindset "Oh the company builds the best stuff in the world" meanwhile the company is known for building garbage.
I could care less what people drive and I'm not some spokes person for Hyundai or any other company I was merely stating my experiences and why I think that those make me right in my decision. You (as in everyone out there) choose to drive whatever makes you happy and whatever lets you sleep at night.
I wouldn't drive a BIG-3 vehicle at this time because I don't have heap loads of money to spend on repairs over the long-term ownership as I see co-workers, friends, family, neighbours and my dads customer do on a regular basis. Who knows why they drive these cars, maybe they like paying, maybe we got shipped a ton of lemons in Ontario... I don't know or care... All I know is that I'm not going to be doing that, and have chosen to take my wallet to the Dealership that treats me like a person and sells me a worthwhile vehicle that gives me a good bang for my buck.
You missed this line:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I know a PILE of guys who work at GM and drive Ford products (many are members of the local Mustang club) so how are they, working for GM, given a warped view if they don't even drive GM vehicles?
How do you know the Ford mechanic in question drives a Ford? You don't......
Originally Posted By: frank83
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
Lets look at reality:
1. GM, and Chrysler are basically on life support. If it was not for "YOU and I" providing subsidies to help them, where would they be? If a business model is failing, there is a problem. Our recommendation is you find out what is not working and fix it quick! We believe it is not a good idea to wait decades to make changes.
2. Ford had positioned themselves before the fallout. They appear to be in somewhat better shape than GM and Chrysler. I placed my cold hard cash in the Ford camp by purchasing their stock a few months back. We are hopeful that they will rebound, and we will make a sizable profit. So I hope some of you are correct. Did I by Toyota stock? No? How many of you have purchased stock in GM, Ford or Chrysler lately? And if you say NO, why not?
3. Last I checked the majority of us are transplants to the United States. I know of very few that are American Indians.
4. Tundra truck plant in Texas shut down in 2008. What happened to the workers, the 4000 of them? They were sent to school, paid, until production commenced. What were they sent to school to learn? The were sent to work on refining the production process better, and to find better ways to produce a better product. Folks, I don't know about your thoughts on this, but I believe that I would want to work for a company that looks as each employee as an investment, not a liability.
Lets look at this further:
We have owned 6 GM products since 1985. Is there experience owning a GM? Yes. I gave GM 6 attempts, not 1, not 2. We have also witnessed family members that owned/own GM, Ford, and Chrysler products. Problems? Many. So much so they had to get rid of some of the vehicles before they were payed for. Was this recent? Yes. Is this acceptable? I would hope most of you would say "no".
In the future would I buy a GM product? We would hope that I will be able to buy a GM product. We did not in 2008, when we could have.
Finally:
If you are losing in a football game and its late in the 3rd quarter, you don't yell and scream at the other team for scoring a touchdown, or complain to the ref that they should not allow the score since it is unfair, do you? No. What do you do? You find a way to make each and every play the best. You do not quit until the whistle is blown, on each and every play. In doing this, you will eventually see progress, and opportunities evolve that will place you in a position to win. If you win congratulations. If you lose, you learn from your mistakes and use that as "learning experiences". You do not repeat the prior mistakes that caused you to lose the game. Why? Cause chances are you will lose again.
Nice post, I didn't know that Toyota sent some of their employees to school when the plant shut down.
Newsflash for ya all - GM sends it employees to training too.
But, really, a good post.
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
Lets look at reality:
1. GM, and Chrysler are basically on life support. If it was not for "YOU and I" providing subsidies to help them, where would they be? If a business model is failing, there is a problem. Our recommendation is you find out what is not working and fix it quick! We believe it is not a good idea to wait decades to make changes.
2. Ford had positioned themselves before the fallout. They appear to be in somewhat better shape than GM and Chrysler. I placed my cold hard cash in the Ford camp by purchasing their stock a few months back. We are hopeful that they will rebound, and we will make a sizable profit. So I hope some of you are correct. Did I by Toyota stock? No? How many of you have purchased stock in GM, Ford or Chrysler lately? And if you say NO, why not?
3. Last I checked the majority of us are transplants to the United States. I know of very few that are American Indians.
4. Tundra truck plant in Texas shut down in 2008. What happened to the workers, the 4000 of them? They were sent to school, paid, until production commenced. What were they sent to school to learn? The were sent to work on refining the production process better, and to find better ways to produce a better product. Folks, I don't know about your thoughts on this, but I believe that I would want to work for a company that looks as each employee as an investment, not a liability.
Lets look at this further:
We have owned 6 GM products since 1985. Is there experience owning a GM? Yes. I gave GM 6 attempts, not 1, not 2. We have also witnessed family members that owned/own GM, Ford, and Chrysler products. Problems? Many. So much so they had to get rid of some of the vehicles before they were payed for. Was this recent? Yes. Is this acceptable? I would hope most of you would say "no".
In the future would I buy a GM product? We would hope that I will be able to buy a GM product. We did not in 2008, when we could have.
Finally:
If you are losing in a football game and its late in the 3rd quarter, you don't yell and scream at the other team for scoring a touchdown, or complain to the ref that they should not allow the score since it is unfair, do you? No. What do you do? You find a way to make each and every play the best. You do not quit until the whistle is blown, on each and every play. In doing this, you will eventually see progress, and opportunities evolve that will place you in a position to win. If you win congratulations. If you lose, you learn from your mistakes and use that as "learning experiences". You do not repeat the prior mistakes that caused you to lose the game. Why? Cause chances are you will lose again.
Nice post, I didn't know that Toyota sent some of their employees to school when the plant shut down.
Newsflash for ya all - GM sends it employees to training too.
But, really, a good post.
QUOTE StevieC: "Careful now you will get shot down about how great their quality is and how the Japanese have an equal amount of problems like I did a few posts ago..."
And that type of comment WOULD STILL BE TRUE!
QUOTE StevieC: "These things just don't happen PT1, not even with a mechanic that has seen 35+ years and worked for one of the Big-3 like my dad."
If I recall, your dad is retired so his 35 yrs experience are working on the old stuff - which I agree was junk. He has little to no experience on the new and better stuff so he (and you) are living in the past like 99% of the import fanboys here.
Sorry StevieC, just keeping it real.
And that type of comment WOULD STILL BE TRUE!
QUOTE StevieC: "These things just don't happen PT1, not even with a mechanic that has seen 35+ years and worked for one of the Big-3 like my dad."
If I recall, your dad is retired so his 35 yrs experience are working on the old stuff - which I agree was junk. He has little to no experience on the new and better stuff so he (and you) are living in the past like 99% of the import fanboys here.
Sorry StevieC, just keeping it real.
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I hope congress does something to help with the high cost of health care. That in and of itself will help GM, its retirees and small businesses. But that's a whole other argument. I agree there should be tariffs on imports to the extent they are taxed out of business in this country. We are big enough to provide for ourselves as well as being an export country (as we once were). The current system actually encourages businesses to outsource. Toyota has an unfair advantage to US automakers as they have very few retirees to pay for. They should be taxed accordingly.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
I hope congress does something to help with the high cost of health care. That in and of itself will help GM, its retirees and small businesses. But that's a whole other argument. I agree there should be tariffs on imports to the extent they are taxed out of business in this country. We are big enough to provide for ourselves as well as being an export country (as we once were). The current system actually encourages businesses to outsource. Toyota has an unfair advantage to US automakers as they have very few retirees to pay for. They should be taxed accordingly.
The Japanese government subsidizes Toyota (heavily) as well. They paid for the Hybrid system in the Prius for example.......
Unlike the attitude here of "let your cards fall where they may", the Japanese seem to have no problem financially assisting their larger corporations to help them topple their (perceived to be) inferior American competitors.
How well is Toyota doing in Germany? Honda? Nissan? How about KIA and Hyundai, how well are they doing in Japan?
The North American market is a completely different beast.
I hope congress does something to help with the high cost of health care. That in and of itself will help GM, its retirees and small businesses. But that's a whole other argument. I agree there should be tariffs on imports to the extent they are taxed out of business in this country. We are big enough to provide for ourselves as well as being an export country (as we once were). The current system actually encourages businesses to outsource. Toyota has an unfair advantage to US automakers as they have very few retirees to pay for. They should be taxed accordingly.
The Japanese government subsidizes Toyota (heavily) as well. They paid for the Hybrid system in the Prius for example.......
Unlike the attitude here of "let your cards fall where they may", the Japanese seem to have no problem financially assisting their larger corporations to help them topple their (perceived to be) inferior American competitors.
How well is Toyota doing in Germany? Honda? Nissan? How about KIA and Hyundai, how well are they doing in Japan?
The North American market is a completely different beast.
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