GM Fell Behind Toyota in 2008

[StevieC]

It's funny how you start pointing the finger at something else when you know you have lost... But that's ok I have an answer for this question too.

They aren't IMPORTS or FOREIGN anymore as they are built here... Yes the head office and company originates overseas but does that really matter? I mean I'm sure you buy from WALMART and they import a ton of stuff from overseas, but that's ok right?

As for my dads pension... He paid into it with hard work for years and so some of that has to count, as for supporting the brand and his pension through driving Chrysler products we would if they built as good of a unit with the features we are looking for at the price we are looking for compared to the Japanese/Koreans. They don't they build high-cost of ownership vehicles (from our experiences) so what good is supporting his pension if he has to give it right back to Chrysler in repairs and parts to keep his vehicle on the road?

Besides... Anyone that counts on a company pension is playing with fire... It's not like it used to be, there is a lot of Volatility in the markets today, and you are better off investing on your own by spreading your eggs in multiple baskets like he has done. His pension is extra and he could do without it if need be.

What else can you come up with... I'm here all day and looking forward to the fun.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Last I checked the Japanese were the only ones still selling vehicles most of which are produced in both of our countries... So this is a GOOD thing for the economy seeing as the BIG-3 have their head up their arse and aren't helping things...

As for the brainwashing, as I said before... I have seen with my own two eyes the difference between the two different countries products, and I'm sorry sir but you are the one mistaken.

Japanese quality while not 100% perfect is 1000% better than the [censored] North America has turned out in the last 10 years.

Again I say... Why is it that so many BITOG-er's & general consumers have switched away from the BIG-3 if they don't have a quality issue? This doesn't just come out of thin air because one day they wake up and decide... "You know I think Chop-Stick cars are better!"

I'm struggling to see your argument, and how I'm wrong when mine is base on seeing a ton of problems with American built cars because of my invaluable view through my dad being a retired auto-worker for the big-3 for 20+ years and a mechanic for over 35 years... Pretty sure I know what I have seen.

Fix these issues and beat the Japanese and I will be the first customer... Till then SWALLOW THE PILL FOR THE ILLNESS YOU CREATED!



By buying imports you're hurting your father's pension, but I guess you don't care about that either. That's the way to stick it to him. I bet he's proud.


Actually, DC worked with Hyundai and Mitsubishi to build their current generation of 4 cylinder engines, so him buying a Hyundai is likely helpful for his father's pension. DC, Mitsubishi and Hyundai/Kia work together, so in some ways a purchase with one will benefit the others.

That's the way the car business is today. They work together, they all use the same suppliers and sometimes even share the table when designing components or products.

 

[StevieC]

I know... You should see my 2.7 Litre engine it looks almost like a 3.0 litre Mitsubishi built for Chrysler... They're all in bed with each other...

 

[javacontour]

It wouldn't shock me. I know DC has/had a 2.7L V6 as well that went into the Intrepid, etc.

I'm not saying it is, but it could be the very same engine, or at least share some common castings and other hard parts.

 

[StevieC]

No the 2.7 DC engine is very different than my 2.7. It was somewhat of a German influenced design. My 2.7 definitely resembles that of a 3.0 Litre Mitsubishi except it has DOHC.

Here are some of the parts that we know match:

Water Pump, Timing Belt, Spark-Plugs, Serpentine Belt, Thermostat, Oil Filter size & threads, Oil Pick-up tube, TPS, Oxygen Sensors, Crank Sensor... I have the technical manual and most of this is the same design in the same place...

 

[javacontour]

I don't know much about the DC world anymore. I do think there is a bit of overlap the Mitsubishi and Kia/Hyundai worlds and some of that may find it's way to DC (or I guess just C now, even though D owns about 20% of C even today.)

 

[StevieC]

Talk about letters of the Alphabet eh...

C was having problems so D came along and took over C to become DC, then that didn't work out very well so D left C and then CC took over C so I guess it's CCC, now they are taking about adding F to the mix... So I guess it will be FCCC or CCCF.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
I never said the Koreans, or Japanese are perfect I said they are better IMO.


OK, I can see how people can honestly believe that some Japanese vehicles are superior to the Domestic counterparts. I really can.

But now the Koreans are better? You honestly think Hyundai and Kia build a better product than Ford and GM? Seriously?

 

[StevieC]

At this point right now YES. My family has 3 of them. one from 2000 that sees nothing but abuse from my sister and has a ton of miles on it. I have an '06 with 150,000KM on it and my mom has her second one (first in an accident) with 75,000KM on it. ALL with 0 problems or trips to the dealer. Unlike the American Vehicles we own currently and have owned with far fewer miles...

Plus what I have seen from what my dad has serviced being a mechanic for 35+ years.

Dunno that kinda says good things to me no???

He is the one that told us to buy our Kia/Hyundai's because they are cheap in price and of excellent build quality nowadays.

If it's really that hard to swallow the pill of defeat try some peanuts butter with it, goes down a bit better.

 

[Ben99GT]

StevieC, Korean quality is behind GM, and more specifically Ford, right now.

I have a fleet of domestic vehicles in my yard right now. 2001 F150 (131,000 miles), 2002 F250 Super Duty PSD (85,000 mi), 2005 Freestyle (55,000 mi).

The 2001 F150 has had 2 ignition coils go out (90,000 & 120,000 mi), the original battery go out (105,000 mi) and one cargo light bulb and that's it.

The 2002 Super Duty has had zero issues. It tows a 9,000+ lb trailer monthly and still has original shocks and brake pads.

The 2005 Freestyle needed rear brake pads at 40,000 miles, which Ford paid for despite not being under warranty. Beyond that not a single issue with the car. No broken trim pieces, no rattles, no odd behaviors/noises, just flawless operation.

Also, the quality studies survey show Ford and GM above the Korean duo.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?id=2008063

So while you may believe that the Koreans are better than Ford and GM right now, you are sorely mistaken.

 

[StevieC]

Quality studies mean [censored] in my opinion... Real world experience speak volumes. That's like the Fuel Consumption ratings they publish which are never true for most vehicles in the real world.

Hyundai's/Kia's are rated at average reliability, yet my family owns 3 of them and not 1 of them has had any problems at all with anything and my sisters is well abused as posted in various other threads.

I would buy a Korean or Japanese car over an American car any day of the week but will change my mind when the American car companies wake up and start selling what the consumers want with the durability and the price.

It's not me that has convinced the world that the American Big-3 have a problem it's people themselves that have learned this through experiences.

In the examples you have given above is not an good indication of miles. On all the Korean/Japanese vehicles we have owned and own now not 1 has had a problem where a non-wearable part needed to be replaced.

You keep driving your American Made vehicles from a North American Based Brand and I will keep driving my Korean/Japanese American Made vehicles and we will see who spends more money and has less headaches when they both are in the scrap yard.

I wouldn't leave my daily job on the road with as many miles as I drive up to an American Car for fear that I would be spending a ton of cash in rentals and repairs and it wouldn't be cost effective. But I guess my co-workers don't mind because they all drive American cars and spend on rentals/repairs regularly because something else has failed. (Both in/out of warranty) While I drive along smoothly uninterupted in my Santa Fe with 150,000KM and zero problems.

 

[mstrjon32]

@ Ben99GT: He's really not worth arguing with. Something about all the pills he's been taking.

 

[Ben99GT]

mstrjon, I can see that now.

 

[cousincletus]

I agree. Maybe he can get a job selling Hyundais instead of flipping burgers.

 

[StevieC]

I don't flip burgers, I'm a district manager and I could careless whether you see it my way. You will eventually... I will drive by in my Hyundai with 300,000 miles and wave.

It's all good.

Funny though how the cheap shots come out when you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: cousincletus


Well, when every single experience is a negative then I wonder. Oh, and I could care less whether anyone believes me or not, and I challenge anyone to disprove any of the facts and links I post. All I'm saying is there is too much unnecessary domestic bashing that just smells like bull$hit to me.


And the same can be said for every positive only experience. Someone who gets up and says every GM I've purchased since 1965 has given me 200K+ trouble free miles, blah blah blah.

What FACTS have you posted? The only FACT that has been presented in this discussion is that GM fell from #1 worldwide sales to second place (I started to say #2, but that might be twisted to mean something I didn't mean, LOL.)

Everything else has largely been speculation.

I know all the profits don't leave the US, because you can buy Toyota's ADR in the stock market and get your own share of profits right here.

Even US carmaker profits, when we have them, don't all stay here as investors from around the world can own stocks in GM and Ford. (Chrysler is now privately held, so no stock holders there.)

Do the domestic suppliers turn a profit? If so, then those profits too are staying here.

So to complain about "profits" going overseas is an insane argument. Profits go overseas for ANY corporation, even domestic corporations.

Everything I've read about suppliers has indicated they would rather work with Toyota than GM. Why, because Toyota will pay more for a quality piece, where GM is focused almost exclusively on price.

Annual Supplier Study

So it appears even the suppliers would rather do business with Honda, Toyota and to a lesser extent Nissan compared to the domestic 3.

So even those who make the parts that go into the vehicles prefer others.

One good sign from that 2007 survey is that GM has greatly improved their supplier relationships.

Quote:

This year Ford ranks at the bottom of the six North American OEMs with a ranking of 162, a 12 point drop from last year. GM moved up to 174 from 131, and Chrysler fell to 199 from 218 after a steady four-year gain. Chrysler’s drop is corroborated by a decrease of 50% in the number of suppliers who consider DCX a "most preferred or very preferred” OEM to work with. Nearly 50% of Ford’s suppliers would rather not work with Ford or are ambivalent about doing so.


How do you build great cars when your suppliers don't really want to do business with you?

Say what you want about the folks here on this website, the folks who make the parts DO KNOW the business. They aren't burger flippers who have a $500 computer and mom or dad's internet connection.

There is something rotten in Detroit, and it's not because of anything that Toyota, Honda or Nissan did.

That's what I've been trying to say. This is coming from someone who was GM since I began driving in 1980 until I purchased that Geo Prizm in 2003.

That little Toyota with the GM badge opened my eyes to something I had missed all those years.


How ridiculous is that? If a supplier doesn't want to do business with GM, then don't. Are these suppliers US companies? There are a lot of unanswered questions like which companies they are.

 

[Ben99GT]

Interesting interpretation of this conversation, to say the least.

You don't even have a Hyundai with 100,000 miles and you are already proclaiming 300,000 miles.

Keep drinking that kool-aid, Stevie.

 

[StevieC]

If you have read my other posts my sisters Hyundai which is a 2000 has over that and mine is 10,000KM away from that... So I will keep drinking the Kool-aid. Apparently you can't read.

 

[Ben99GT]

Now who is taking the cheap shots? Did you lose that leg to stand on, Stevie?

I must have missed where you mentioned your sister's mileage. I just read "a ton of miles" (kilometers?).

Apparently you can't communicate your thoughts.

 

[StevieC]

Other posts... Other threads... and you are taking cheap shots because you can't find data to backup your arguments as I have. So if you can take cheap shots why can't I.

Furthermore wheres your dad that was a mechanic of 35+ years and has worked for one of the Big-3 for 20+ years. Were your weekends spent in the driveway learning from your dad like me? I was doing engines overhauls, transmission overhauls and general vehicle repairs under my dads supervision and instruction.

Did you see the vehicles I have seen and/or their problems?

Did your dad tell you to stay away from the Big-3 from personal experience like mine has?

Does your family own 3 Hyundai/Kia vehicles that all have had 0 problems one of which is an early model and is abused like my sisters but still managed to achieve over 100,000 miles problem free?

NO... So how can you attack my posts... Wheres your data that shows otherwise???? Still waiting for it. Right, only cheap shots and what you hear from screaming auto-unions. Gotcha.