GM Fell Behind Toyota in 2008

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
the big 3 is in trouble that's for sure. We have StevieC, whose dad who is retired from Chrysler, his mom bought a Kia. Another poster said his dad retired from the big 3, he won't buy big 3 vehicles. it's that bad for the big3 ..


Assuming any of that is even true. Anyone can say anything on the internet.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
the big 3 is in trouble that's for sure. We have StevieC, whose dad who is retired from Chrysler, his mom bought a Kia. Another poster said his dad retired from the big 3, he won't buy big 3 vehicles. it's that bad for the big3 ..


Assuming any of that is even true. Anyone can say anything on the internet.


It's probably just as true as the experiences you've shared, right? You expect us to take your experiences as true, but then cast doubt on what someone else says???

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Also last I checked the Toyota Tundra is made in a plant in TEXAS so it's just as "American Made" as the other stuff...


Wrong. The profits go back to Japan. The assembly plant is located in the USA to avoid import tariffs. Final assembly is only a part of the total operation. There are usually a smaller percentage of American made parts from American manufacturers. The assembly plants mostly employ lower paid non-union workers. GM by itself employ more Americans than all the foreign transplants combined. Same for Ford. This site has an amazing number of internet know-nothings.


At least there are profits. Right now, GM is not making profits on the vehicles they sell, so we are doing them a favor by not buying and contributing to the losses.

Wasn't it you that just said the starting wages for the UAW were about $14 an hour, which to me is low pay, and now you are complaining that non-union auto-workers are getting low pay.

Oh, no bashing on your side of the opinion aisle when you call those who disagree with you no-nothings.

Frankly, I think that is in violation of the TOS here. I don't think the agreement you and everyone else clicked on allows for one to write such things about fellow members.

It's one thing to have a different opinion. But when one has to resort to feeble insults instead of just using facts and reason to make one's point, then I believe they are well beyond the allowed behavior here.

 

[Amkeer]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
Why we chose Toyota Tundra:

1. Reliability. Since owning the Toyota brands since 1985 we have had excellent service from their vehicles. Every mass produced vehicle has its issues and Toyota is not exempt from this. Through the years we have been able to analyze problems with different brands, and we believe based on that, Toyota still has fewer problems.


Thank you for proving my point. You attribute quality to the Tundra based on an unquantifiable perception.

Fact is, survey after survey puts the 2007-up Tundra at the BOTTOM of the full-size pickup pack. By the numbers, the Tundra has proven to be less reliable than the Dodge Ram, much less the Chevy Silverado or Ford F-150.


If you did your research like I did with an unbiased approach you may come up with the same conclusions like we did, or you may not. The 2007 Tundra was completely redesigned. We own a 2008. So to prove your point, I have not owned a 2008 Toyota until 2008, therefore I do not know how the truck will perform 5 or 10 years out. If I could have owned a 2008 in 2003 I would be able to tell you more.

Like I said we can only go from personal experiences and research. Please keep supporting Ford, GM, and Chrysler, they need it.

 

[Amkeer]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
Why we chose Toyota Tundra:

1. Reliability. Since owning the Toyota brands since 1985 we have had excellent service from their vehicles. Every mass produced vehicle has its issues and Toyota is not exempt from this. Through the years we have been able to analyze problems with different brands, and we believe based on that, Toyota still has fewer problems.


Thank you for proving my point. You attribute quality to the Tundra based on an unquantifiable perception.

Fact is, survey after survey puts the 2007-up Tundra at the BOTTOM of the full-size pickup pack. By the numbers, the Tundra has proven to be less reliable than the Dodge Ram, much less the Chevy Silverado or Ford F-150.


He also said he was also buying the Tundra for its styling. I know this is subjective but that's about the ugliest truck I have ever seen. I had a Dodge Ram 1500 (2001) and it was a very reliable truck. I would put it up against a brand new Toyota for quality. I now have a Chevy Colorado. We'll see how it holds up, since it's different from the S-10s that I had in the past. I looked at the Tacoma (not that I would really buy one haha) and the Colorado gives you MUCH more for the money, looks a lot better, and was more comfortable to drive. Also AMERICAN MADE!!! from a USA MANUFACTURER. GO USA!!!


Was the Dodge owned by Daimler? As far as the beauty thing, it is all subjective. I would not want everyone to buy the same vehicle or color, would you?

Last I checked the Tacoma and Tundra are manufactured in the USA with 90% parts made here in the Tundra. We went over this before Cousin, and you seem to not want to grasp this. My Tacoma was made with UAW workers at the Fremont plant. Which is a joint venture with GM. So you bash the styling of the Tundra which is designed by US engineering.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3014934

Above is a link to a black colored Tundra, which is a color the wife wanted. I hardly think the truck looks ugly, but like I said it is subjective.

 

[mstrjon32]

There's a truck in the pictures at the link?

 

[StevieC]

I have been a sleep until now... And just catching up. Let me start off by saying that I don't work for Subway or Quiznos or any other Quick Service Restaurant chain, I work in Full Service Sit Down Restaurants, not that where I work should have anything to do with what I post here...

Second I only post my experiences and factual information as I know it. If I'm not 100% sure I always post with IIR, IMO, or the phrase from my experiences.

My dad being a retiree of 20 years at Chrysler and a mechanic for 35+ years gives me a pretty unique view of whats happening in the North American Auto industry today. I have seen lots of the problems first hand.

I never said the Koreans, or Japanese are perfect I said they are better IMO. I also never said that I would never buy a North American Companies car, I always said I would be the first to go back when they meet my needs as a consumer as would most other BITOG-er's that feel the same way as I do.

So why am I not entitled to NOT LIKE the Big-3 at the moment, the same way that some of you like to point the fingers at the Japanese/Koreans?

I think some of you have a problem accepting that the US may not be the best in your very important auto-industry and that's a hard pill to swallow so you take it out by pointing the finger at the person who is calling it like it is... These same people also try to discredit people like me by pointing out things that are irrelevant like age, place of employment, joking posts about non-related subject matter, and/or you refer to stupid things like a companies recalls or a company like Hyundai's record in the 80's... Every company has recalls it's how they handle them that make a difference to me.

I have seen many "Foreign" cars go the same amount of miles as American cars, but at what cost of ownership? Usually double if not triple in some cases... This I have seen first hand, and so I continue to post from experience...

Sorry guys that [censored] doesn't fly with me...

 

[mstrjon32]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
I have seen many "Foreign" cars go the same amount of miles as American cars, but at what cost of ownership? Usually double if not triple in some cases... This I have seen first hand, and so I continue to post from experience...


I agree, it does cost more to fix and own foreign cars and they don't go any farther than American.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
Originally Posted By: StevieC
I have seen many "Foreign" cars go the same amount of miles as American cars, but at what cost of ownership? Usually double if not triple in some cases... This I have seen first hand, and so I continue to post from experience...


I agree, it does cost more to fix and own foreign cars and they don't go any farther than American.


From my experiences it's the other way around...

 

[firemachine69]

Toyota will have its turn to fail itself, they are making the same mistakes GM is making (poor customer service, less-than-stellar quality, poor value for the money).

A 'yota from today is not the same as one from yesteryear, even 100% japanese-assembled ones are no where near the frugal quality that would have been not even ten years ago (like my Yaris).


On the (somewhat) related subject, what will happen if Honda does indeed it's head office to the USA? Does it become a "domestic"? Mind you by the time they get here, we could call them the "Big One".

 

[StevieC]

Growing pains for that company... And I never said that I liked Toyota, I said "Foreign".

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
the big 3 is in trouble that's for sure. We have StevieC, whose dad who is retired from Chrysler, his mom bought a Kia. Another poster said his dad retired from the big 3, he won't buy big 3 vehicles. it's that bad for the big3 ..


Assuming any of that is even true. Anyone can say anything on the internet.


It's probably just as true as the experiences you've shared, right? You expect us to take your experiences as true, but then cast doubt on what someone else says???



Well, when every single experience is a negative then I wonder. Oh, and I could care less whether anyone believes me or not, and I challenge anyone to disprove any of the facts and links I post. All I'm saying is there is too much unnecessary domestic bashing that just smells like bull$hit to me.

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Also last I checked the Toyota Tundra is made in a plant in TEXAS so it's just as "American Made" as the other stuff...


Wrong. The profits go back to Japan. The assembly plant is located in the USA to avoid import tariffs. Final assembly is only a part of the total operation. There are usually a smaller percentage of American made parts from American manufacturers. The assembly plants mostly employ lower paid non-union workers. GM by itself employ more Americans than all the foreign transplants combined. Same for Ford. This site has an amazing number of internet know-nothings.


At least there are profits. Right now, GM is not making profits on the vehicles they sell, so we are doing them a favor by not buying and contributing to the losses.

Wasn't it you that just said the starting wages for the UAW were about $14 an hour, which to me is low pay, and now you are complaining that non-union auto-workers are getting low pay.

Oh, no bashing on your side of the opinion aisle when you call those who disagree with you no-nothings.

Frankly, I think that is in violation of the TOS here. I don't think the agreement you and everyone else clicked on allows for one to write such things about fellow members.

It's one thing to have a different opinion. But when one has to resort to feeble insults instead of just using facts and reason to make one's point, then I believe they are well beyond the allowed behavior here.


I wasn't complaining about union wages, just stating facts. That's something you don't see here much anymore. After all, it's the know nothings who state Toyota is just as American as Chevy.

 

[StevieC]

Funny how the the all of Canada and the US has "Domestic Auto Bashers" and they seem to only bash the Big-3 automakers... hmmm Sounds like a quality problem to me... You have the VW & Hyundai Bashers too... Hmmm Also sounds like quality issues to me...

Don't think it's unfounded, I think it's because people were burned.

Man I hate Japanese Cars those things last way too long.

Swallow the painful pill already... IT'S OVER!

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Funny how the the all of Canada and the US has "Domestic Auto Bashers" and they seem to only bash the Big-3 automakers... hmmm Sounds like a quality problem to me... You have the VW & Hyundai Bashers too... Hmmm Also sounds like quality issues to me...

Don't think it's unfounded, I think it's because people were burned.

Man I hate Japanese Cars those things last way too long.

Swallow the painful pill already... IT'S OVER!


If you say so.

 

[StevieC]

Unless they make some hard changes are stop dictating to the customer the way it's gonna be and start listening like their competitors it is over and "I DO SAY SO!"

 

[mstrjon32]

I have to tell you I've had many friends with Japanese cars and they've all had just as many problems as American cars. Just off the top of my head I can think of two Toyota's with catastrophic rod-through-block engine failures at 103K miles, a Nissan Maxima that required significant engine repair and thousands of dollars of service (sunroof broke, power seat broke, etc.) while still in the warranty period, a Honda Civic with an interior that rattled like a tin can and had a number of suspension/strut failures in the first 30K miles, etc.

If you want to allow yourself to be brainwashed that Japanese cars are some how superior, knock yourself out. But don't come crying to me when you are out of a job because the economy is in a depression and there is no value left in this country. At least your Toyota will still be running, right?

 

[StevieC]

Last I checked the Japanese were the only ones still selling vehicles most of which are produced in both of our countries... So this is a GOOD thing for the economy seeing as the BIG-3 have their head up their arse and aren't helping things...

As for the brainwashing, as I said before... I have seen with my own two eyes the difference between the two different countries products, and I'm sorry sir but you are the one mistaken.

Japanese quality while not 100% perfect is 1000% better than the [censored] North America has turned out in the last 10 years.

Again I say... Why is it that so many BITOG-er's & general consumers have switched away from the BIG-3 if they don't have a quality issue? This doesn't just come out of thin air because one day they wake up and decide... "You know I think Chop-Stick cars are better!"

I'm struggling to see your argument, and how I'm wrong when mine is base on seeing a ton of problems with American built cars because of my invaluable view through my dad being a retired auto-worker for the big-3 for 20+ years and a mechanic for over 35 years... Pretty sure I know what I have seen.

Fix these issues and beat the Japanese and I will be the first customer... Till then SWALLOW THE PILL FOR THE ILLNESS YOU CREATED!

 

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Last I checked the Japanese were the only ones still selling vehicles most of which are produced in both of our countries... So this is a GOOD thing for the economy seeing as the BIG-3 have their head up their arse and aren't helping things...

As for the brainwashing, as I said before... I have seen with my own two eyes the difference between the two different countries products, and I'm sorry sir but you are the one mistaken.

Japanese quality while not 100% perfect is 1000% better than the [censored] North America has turned out in the last 10 years.

Again I say... Why is it that so many BITOG-er's & general consumers have switched away from the BIG-3 if they don't have a quality issue? This doesn't just come out of thin air because one day they wake up and decide... "You know I think Chop-Stick cars are better!"

I'm struggling to see your argument, and how I'm wrong when mine is base on seeing a ton of problems with American built cars because of my invaluable view through my dad being a retired auto-worker for the big-3 for 20+ years and a mechanic for over 35 years... Pretty sure I know what I have seen.

Fix these issues and beat the Japanese and I will be the first customer... Till then SWALLOW THE PILL FOR THE ILLNESS YOU CREATED!



By buying imports you're hurting your father's pension, but I guess you don't care about that either. That's the way to stick it to him. I bet he's proud.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus


Well, when every single experience is a negative then I wonder. Oh, and I could care less whether anyone believes me or not, and I challenge anyone to disprove any of the facts and links I post. All I'm saying is there is too much unnecessary domestic bashing that just smells like bull$hit to me.


And the same can be said for every positive only experience. Someone who gets up and says every GM I've purchased since 1965 has given me 200K+ trouble free miles, blah blah blah.

What FACTS have you posted? The only FACT that has been presented in this discussion is that GM fell from #1 worldwide sales to second place (I started to say #2, but that might be twisted to mean something I didn't mean, LOL.)

Everything else has largely been speculation.

I know all the profits don't leave the US, because you can buy Toyota's ADR in the stock market and get your own share of profits right here.

Even US carmaker profits, when we have them, don't all stay here as investors from around the world can own stocks in GM and Ford. (Chrysler is now privately held, so no stock holders there.)

Do the domestic suppliers turn a profit? If so, then those profits too are staying here.

So to complain about "profits" going overseas is an insane argument. Profits go overseas for ANY corporation, even domestic corporations.

Everything I've read about suppliers has indicated they would rather work with Toyota than GM. Why, because Toyota will pay more for a quality piece, where GM is focused almost exclusively on price.

Annual Supplier Study

So it appears even the suppliers would rather do business with Honda, Toyota and to a lesser extent Nissan compared to the domestic 3.

So even those who make the parts that go into the vehicles prefer others.

One good sign from that 2007 survey is that GM has greatly improved their supplier relationships.

Quote:

This year Ford ranks at the bottom of the six North American OEMs with a ranking of 162, a 12 point drop from last year. GM moved up to 174 from 131, and Chrysler fell to 199 from 218 after a steady four-year gain. Chrysler’s drop is corroborated by a decrease of 50% in the number of suppliers who consider DCX a "most preferred or very preferred” OEM to work with. Nearly 50% of Ford’s suppliers would rather not work with Ford or are ambivalent about doing so.


How do you build great cars when your suppliers don't really want to do business with you?

Say what you want about the folks here on this website, the folks who make the parts DO KNOW the business. They aren't burger flippers who have a $500 computer and mom or dad's internet connection.

There is something rotten in Detroit, and it's not because of anything that Toyota, Honda or Nissan did.

That's what I've been trying to say. This is coming from someone who was GM since I began driving in 1980 until I purchased that Geo Prizm in 2003.

That little Toyota with the GM badge opened my eyes to something I had missed all those years.