Getting away from synthetics

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Originally Posted By: ZZman
Lexus114: You forgot high heat conditions.

And what would be considered "changed properly"? 3,000 miles, 5,000 miles?

Most oil companies do not claim their Syn oils are for long OCI's. They will say they are for better protection and performance for the same OCI that you would run a Dino. Not to say you can't run a PP or Synpower for a long OCI, but the oil companies will not say that though.


show me an example of engine failure due to heat,on conventional oil.(and i dont mean over heating from a cooling system problem either)
 
Originally Posted By: Jaymus
How about an expensive steak marinated in synthetic oil?


A BITOG favorite!!!
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Originally Posted By: Jaymus
How about an expensive steak marinated in synthetic oil?


Only if it's 100% PAO based. As we all know, to the synthetic connoisseurs on BITOG, anything less than GRP IV won't do.
 
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Originally Posted By: lexus114

show me an example of engine failure due to heat,on conventional oil.(and i dont mean over heating from a cooling system problem either)


I never mentioned any failures. Syn oils handle heat better and are less likely to coke up or leave deposits like varnish or sludge due to high heat conditions.

Just like you will not really see any failures in cold conditions either but the Syn oil will allow the engine to turn over easier and be lubricated quicker.
 
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Originally Posted By: RGrant
Originally Posted By: Jaymus
How about an expensive steak marinated in synthetic oil?


Only if it's 100% PAO based. As we all know, to the synthetic connoisseurs on BITOG, anything less than GRP IV won't do.


Better make it a name brand too! We all know that NAPA`s oils are made by Valvoline,BUT,is Walmart`s house brand steak sauce made by A1? I`d rather be safe than sorry when it comes to my filet mignon
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Originally Posted By: Hethaerto
True. TN doesn't require registered car owners to actually take care of the vehicles.

I have a problem with this, myself. Virginia has this state inspection law, and buyers of VA cars have a very good chance of buying a used car that's been taken care of because it's the law.

In TN, used car buyers have an excellent chance of buying a car that's never had any preventive maintenance done on it, or even required maintenance. People drive their cars into the dirt and then sell then off to unwary buyers.


Correct me if I am wrong, but state law requires a SAFETY inspection... not a preventive maintenance inspection.

It has nothing to do with whether you are buying a "good" car or not.
 
I've got to say that I've been reading here on BITOG for the past 3-4 months almost every single day, and I'm still undecided what to do about my situation.

I've got an '08 Subaru WRX STI with ~5k miles. If you look, I posted up high copper after the first 3500 miles OCI with FF. My DD is a 97 LGT which sees most of the cold starts and stop-and-go-type driving while the STI is more of a weekend fun car where-in most of the time is either spent on the high way or at least spending the majority of the time at NOT.

I flashed the ECU to stage 1, but never run 'er up to redline, and never run in boost until she's up to temp. I also plan to run OCI of 3500 miles for the first 30-40k miles. While I'm not oil-ignorant per-se, I do tend to get a bit restless when it comes to leaving the oil in too long, and seriously doubt the extra few thousand miles is worth me having to worry.

To me, I think I good compromise is Shell clean engine 10W-30, and maybe even 10W-40 during the summer run at OCI of 3500 miles. I only say Shell because it's cheap at BJs, and it seems to run well in my LGT. I have a jug of Rotella 5W-40 sitting in my room, but will most likely take it back.
 
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reading your post reminds me of the time with my exgf when she would buy clothes and decide to return them.
the reasoning is familiar but in a different context.
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I bought the Rotella planning to use it for this past oil change, but the dealer just changed my oil for free after replacing a trim piece they damaged during warranty work. I could keep the Rotella until the next oil change, but I've also got a nice case of Shell that I use for the old Leggy just sitting around waiting for a good motor to lubricate, too! : ).
 
Well, I'm not a big synthetic fan anymore, Wooly One, except for a couple of instances but especially in a turbo app of any kind. Heat sinking from the turbo would concern me in that application. I'd want PP, M1 or one of the Amsoil brews in there if it were I. As for whether to run 5W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40, I'd follow the manufacturer religiously. I'd want whatever Syn the resident experts here feel resist high temps and the coking that takes place at shutdown. That stuff is cumulative, occurs over time and determines whether you'll be buying a new turbo one day ahead of it's time. And not every Group3 syn is going to give you the best protection in that scenario, as I'd imagine flash point temp would be critical.

One of the all-time flash point champs was Havoline Dino at 490F with around 406 PPM of Moly, and had a pretty high ZDDP level under SL/GF3. Even after SM/GF4, it maintained the same flash point and even with reduced zinc levels it was still a great oil. I believe back then LOTS of turbo guys ran it in 5W20 and 5W30 for the high flash point and ability to resist coking at shutdown. Wonderful oil, and the end of Havoline (forget the new stuff) is mourned by lots of folks around here. That was around the time we all figured out that M1 was Group3 and that PAO didn't define synthetic oil anymore, but I believe the old Havoline in SM/GF4 out-performed many hydrocracked group3 "synthetics" in UOA after UOA. And, they always sold it for 1.99/quart, and you could always find it at Wally's for 7.99 in the 5 quart jug. Even AA put it on sale for 1.59/quart. When they brought out the new Havoline swill, the old Havoline sold for as little as 2 quarts for a dollar in some clearances. THAT, gents, was the Golden Age of motor oil.

Sadly, as I go through the UOA and VOA sections, I see Stinky and BioT's posts and threads, gents that passed on from our midst. Not to be a downer, but they'll always get the nod from me every now and then because after all, they were the ones that, amongst many, many folks, built this thing. You newbs that haven't threaded back years and years to read the early days here are truly missing out.
 
I really appreciate your comments, toocrazy. Luckily, I'm never too stubborn(even if only barely so) to be swayed another way as long as it's more than speculative nonsense.

I've heard people talk a lot about coking in turbo applications, but wouldn't a good cool down as well as the coolant naturally circulating through the turbo after shut down prevent this? Has any one here on the forums had to replace a turbo due to under lubrication or cooling issues?

I don't mind spending the extra money if it's worth it, but I don't want to be one of those guys who spends $10+/qt with OCI of 2k miles. I can understand this if the car is rallied or tracked often, but my application isn't nearly that harsh. 70% of the time my car is on the highway driving from here to home or to the gf's place 45 minutes away. Is there any real evidence to show that running dino at 3750 OCI is detrimental? I'll keep reading, and I always respect all of your opinions! If you guys can prove to me that even simply running PP at this interval will give my car the potential to last 300k where as I'll have major problems early on with a dino I'll switch tomorrow! : )
 
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Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I've got to say that I've been reading here on BITOG for the past 3-4 months almost every single day, and I'm still undecided what to do about my situation.


Seriously, it will be OK.........you worry 3 months then let the dealer change the oil....You and I can each blow the 15 $ difference of syn on lunch today......BTW I love Rotella in all my air cooled equipment and my ATV and Bikes. I have not tried as a marinade.
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Originally Posted By: ZZman
lexus114 said:
show me an example of engine failure due to heat,on conventional oil.(and i dont mean over heating from a cooling system problem either)


"I never mentioned any failures. Syn oils handle heat better and are less likely to coke up or leave deposits like varnish or sludge due to high heat conditions.

Just like you will not really see any failures in cold conditions either but the Syn oil will allow the engine to turn over easier and be lubricated quicker."



ok,i respect your view here.i think it simply comes down to,do you want your motor to outlast your vehicle x2,or just get a normal service life out of it and move on.
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Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Lexus114: You forgot high heat conditions.

And what would be considered "changed properly"? 3,000 miles, 5,000 miles?

Most oil companies do not claim their Syn oils are for long OCI's. They will say they are for better protection and performance for the same OCI that you would run a Dino. Not to say you can't run a PP or Synpower for a long OCI, but the oil companies will not say that though.


show me an example of engine failure due to heat,on conventional oil.(and i dont mean over heating from a cooling system problem either)


I had a twin turbo stealth that kept spinning rod bearings while using a 10W-30 conventional. I didn't know about BITOG back then, didn't know much about oil at all, really, but now that I look back on it, I'd definitely say that the conventional oil caused the problems due to heat shearing it down (oil cooled turbos).
 
it depends on a few things though,were you using the correct viscosity?,a good quality oil?.i had a 1984 chrysler laser (wish i still had that car) and always used conventional oil in it.either pennzoil,or castrol gtx,and that turbo was not even liquid cooled.only air(vent on the hood) and oil cooled.never had any trouble with the motor.digital dash yes,but not anything else.and i ran that car hard trust me.
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I apologize for replying so quickly and leaving out certain details. I spoke with Terry over at Dyson, and he recommended I run 1500 miles, then change out. After another 2500 miles he asked me to change it out and send in a sample for UOA (due to the high Cu in the first sample, which was taken with FF at 3500 miles.)

The dealer lifted my car by the side skirt causing it to bend. The guys there are great, and I know it was just a rare mistake. I was at 1503 miles when this happened and, heeding Terry's advice, had them change it out while it was there.

2500 miles on dino shouldn't be a problem at all. My main concern is what to do next. I've been considering Rotella or simply running short OCI with a good dino (maybe Wolf's Head HDEO.) I don't really stress out or care too much. At 5k I don't burn any oil at all, and will most likely upgrade the turbo before it ever came close to failing.

Also, I've had a lot of people tell me to run what the manual says (5W0-30), but it also states in the manual that 10w-30/40 is ok >0F, which is all year round here in CT, and I could at least run that in the summer with 5W-30 in the winter.

My feeling is that factory OCI with a good oil as well as good driving practices is much better than what most do or are even ever concerned with. Being an over-thinking engineer, though, I'm always looking for something better. I'm not looking for something better than is necessary. I have no problem paying as much as it costs to have my motor last forever. Unfortunately, I need proof...I really appreciate all of the advice, though...seriously. This kind of nerdy stuff makes my day! lol
 
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Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I apologize for replying so quickly and leaving out certain details. I spoke with Terry over at Dyson, and he recommended I run 1500 miles, then change out. After another 2500 miles he asked me to change it out and send in a sample for UOA (due to the high Cu in the first sample, which was taken with FF at 3500 miles.)

The dealer lifted my car by the side skirt causing it to bend. The guys there are great, and I know it was just a rare mistake. I was at 1503 miles when this happened and, heeding Terry's advice, had them change it out while it was there.

2500 miles on dino shouldn't be a problem at all. My main concern is what to do next. I've been considering Rotella or simply running short OCI with a good dino (maybe Wolf's Head HDEO.) I don't really stress out or care too much. At 5k I don't burn any oil at all, and will most likely upgrade the turbo before it ever came close to failing.

Also, I've had a lot of people tell me to run what the manual says (5W0-30), but it also states in the manual that 10w-30/40 is ok >0F, which is all year round here in CT, and I could at least run that in the summer with 5W-30 in the winter.

My feeling is that factory OCI with a good oil as well as good driving practices is much better than what most do or are even ever concerned with. Being an over-thinking engineer, though, I'm always looking for something better. I'm not looking for something better than is necessary. I have no problem paying as much as it costs to have my motor last forever. Unfortunately, I need proof...I really appreciate all of the advice, though...seriously. This kind of nerdy stuff makes my day! lol



OT

SE CT huh....You the one cleaning out the oil clearance rack at Wal_Mart???
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Originally Posted By: lexus114

ok,i respect your view here.i think it simply comes down to,do you want your motor to outlast your vehicle x2,or just get a normal service life out of it and move on.
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This is what I strive for. I also change transmission fluid on a regular schedule, and I have used synthetic ever since it has been available.. I change the gear oil in manual transmissions, synthetic also, on a regular schedule. On vehicles with rear wheel drive, I change the axle lube, synthetic, on regular schedule. I am thankful that I have never had an engine or transmission failure. I lost the differential gear on a new 70 Camaro because of a factory defect. I have my daughters and son in laws doing the same thing with their vehicles.

I do not know what a normal service life is. I know that 2/3 of vehicles in use in the USA, not counting commercial vehicles, have over 75,000 miles so normal has to be more than 75,000. A guess only would be around 125,000. I expect and count on a minimum of 200,000 for engine, transmission, and axle. I no longer drive up to 70,000 miles a year so they also last longer, time wise.

I was getting over 100,000 on new vehicles in the 1960's, 1970's, and didn't go to synthetics until 1988. I can't say that synthetics extended my engine life by an average of Xthousans miles because I never wore an engine or transmission, or rear differential out. I can say that engines run smoother(difficult to qualify), run with no engine noises, start readily in even the coldest temperatures of Ohio and Michigan that I have been subjected to, no seeps, leaks, or use of any kind. I know that with synthetic my engine is protected from extremes that I will probably never see, but I like that it is there. I also know that sludge, varnish, and other deposits are virtually nonexistent. I know that with synthetic my keep/trade has moved up from about 125,000 to an average of about 185,000. This is based, primarily, on confidence and overall "feel" of the engines under load. That I have two daily use vehicles with 208,000 and 301,000 miles, I attribute to synthetic engine oil, transmission fluid, and gear oil.

I think today's engines are better than earlier. Engines are also more high tech than ever. What is a normal "economy car" engine today was a super race engine a few years ago. My daughter's little economy college car, with all the bells and whistles, had a 4 speed automatic and a DOHC, 16 valve, aluminum head, SPEFI, high RPM engine. Low RPM, in block cam, push-rod, 2 valve engines are getting to be fewer. Where I live, these engines are affectionately called "Bubba" engines. I have a big Bubba truck and a little Bubba car.

I can't see myself ever using anything other than synthetic in oil, transmission fluid, and gear oil. I can't think of any way to justify the use.
 
Originally Posted By: lexus114
it depends on a few things though,were you using the correct viscosity?,a good quality oil?.i had a 1984 chrysler laser (wish i still had that car) and always used conventional oil in it.either pennzoil,or castrol gtx,and that turbo was not even liquid cooled.only air(vent on the hood) and oil cooled.never had any trouble with the motor.digital dash yes,but not anything else.and i ran that car hard trust me.
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sorry but all Chrylser turbos utilized water cooled center sections. They did so to reduce warranty claims. Here are a few pics of some good aftermarket coolant and oil lines uses on them. You must have been lucky, I have 252K on my Shadow and over 130K on my daytonas on strict synthetic diet. The ones I see in the yards run on dino are usually a disaster.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22171&highlight=coolant+lines
 
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