G.C. on GC GOLD - Base oil analysis

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Hi Nebraskan,

Glass or plastic is fine, just be sure to seal it well and pack it with enough absorbant materials to catch it if it leaks. Mail carriers frown on leaking packages.

Tom
 
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No esters, no ANs, no lower groups...What is keeping the seals soft? What is keeping the additives in solution?




Elves!
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Hi Tom,
Thank you for the excellent posts. This really helps, as my chem backround isn't very strong

To be honest, I don't exactly know the difference between PAO and Esters. In the GC FAQ, I was just regurgitating some info I read - I may have made too general of a statement.

Hi Nebraskan,
You could use a Blackstone bottle if you have one handy. Just put Tom's address over the Blackstone one. (I've got a bunch lying around...)
 
As I don't know squat about what is being said here chemically it will be interesting nonetheless to compare the GC Gold and GC Green test results then listen to you guys try to make sense of it.
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Tom - how much does that G.C. test cost?
 
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To be honest, I don't exactly know the difference between PAO and Esters.




Hi FD777

PAO molecules are constructed solely from Hydrogen and Carbon atoms, hence the term "Hydrocarbons". But they are much different from mineral oil.

Mineral oils are also hydrocarbons, but they are mixtures of literally thousands of different hydrocarbon molecules in all different shapes and sizes, extracted from crude oil. Some of the hydrocarbons in mineral oil are very strong and make excellent lubricants, and some are weak and make poor lubricants.

A famous sculpture was once asked "How can you make a statue of a beautiful woman from an ugly slab of marble", and he said: "It's easy, you just chip away everything that doesn't look like a beautiful woman".

The same is true in making a good base oil from crude - you just "chip" away everything that does not look like a good oil. Unfortunately, it is not economically feasible to remove ALL of the weak molecules from crude oil, and the remaining "weak links" limit the high temperature stability and low temperature fluidity of the oil. Hence mineral base oils are always a compromise of cost and performance.

The best molecules in mineral oil for lubrication are the branched saturated hydrocarbons. So to make a better base oil, it would be nice to use only these strong molecules and leave out the weak ones. That is what PAOs do. The whole concept of “synthetics” is that you start by defining the best molecules for the job, then build these molecules – and only these molecules – from pure chemical building blocks. You don’t have to worry about removing the weak components because they were not part of the design and are not present. PAOs are built up from pure “1-decenes” (hydrocarbons) and the resulting product is the nice pure branched saturated hydrocarbons that we covet.

Esters are made by reacting acids and alcohols. These are not the kind you may be familiar with – the alcohols are usually solids (not the drinking sort!) and the acids don’t burn your skin (at least not too much!). Like with PAOs, one custom designs the molecules for the job and builds them from pure chemical building blocks, but in this case the resulting product is synthetic hydrocarbons with some oxygen atoms attached. These oxygens make the molecules “polar”, sort or like magnetically charged PAOs. This polarity adds some nice properties that are especially useful at high temperatures, such as lower volatility, better oxidative stability, higher lubricity, better solubility, biodegradability, and cleanliness. On the downside, esters cost considerably more than PAOs. You can get more details if interested from our website Hatco in the About Esters paper.

For moderate temperature applications such as motor oils and many industrial uses, PAOs or PAO/ester blends are the premium base oils for maximum efficiency as they can extend drains, reduce maintenance, and save fuel/energy. For very high temperature applications such as jet engines and industrial ovens, esters are generally used alone, especially the polyol (POE) type.

Sorry, there I go again with a long post. Maybe I should just write a book and get it over with.

Tom
 
Hi OH21,

I don't know what testing labs charge for Gas Chromatography, but we have about 20 of them here so to me they are free, but for business use.

The key to G.C work is not so much the generation of the graphs, but rather the interpretation of the graphs. Unless you know lubricants and have a data base of the various types, the graphs are just a lot of squiggly lines (technical term!). I have been looking at lubricant G.C.s for over 30 years, but there are still occassional surprises and I don't claim to know it all.

Tom
 
Tom,
Excellent explanation.
It makes me want to go back to school and become a Chem/Materials Science/Chem Engineering major...

(Maybe you should write a book in your free time.)
 
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Tom,
Excellent explanation.
It makes me want to go back to school and become a Chem/Materials Science/Chem Engineering major...





I was thinking the same thing..LOL

Thanks Tom for the posts.
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Tom watch out you will have a smple of every lube know to man to tell is it 15%PAO and 35% POE ot the other way round.
bruce
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Tom watch out you will have a smple of every lube know to man to tell is it 15%PAO and 35% POE ot the other way round.
bruce
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I hope not Bruce!
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I'll accept a sample of the GC Green because it's not available here, but I can find any other oil myself if I have a interest in looking at it.

Tom
 
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Awesome!

You should run it on a few other Syntecs to see if all of them are PAO or just the GC.




I may do that. Last time I checked them was about eight years ago after they made the formulation change. At that time the 10W-30 was all Group III and the 5W-50 was a Group III/PAO blend (needed the PAO to make the grade stretch). Don't know what they are today.

Tom
 
I'd be curious as to what the other German OEM oils that Castrol sells are. GC is intended to meetin MB 229.5, but it also claims to meet various BMW LL standards, as well as VW 502 00, 503 01, and 505 01. BMW uses a 5w30 Castrol, while Castrol 5w40 is specifically rated for VW 502 00 and 505 01.
 
Thanks Tom. I measured the volatility of Gold and Green GC. See results here: http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...part=1&vc=1
Gold GC was ever so slightly less volatile than Green GC. I figured that if Gold GC had Group 3, it would be more volatile than Green GC. It wasn't so I concluded that Gold GC most likely does not have Group 3. That agrees with your much better methodology. I look forward to your Green GC results. If no esters show up, you'll have to figure out what's lacking in your methodology (detection of very large molecules, etc.) since the previous analysis of Green GC is presumably correct (I'm not qualified to answer that though).
 
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