FYI if you're willing to defend yourself

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Know your laws. In Arizona:

In general, the following conditions must apply if the Castle Doctrine is to be used in claiming justifiable homicide:

1. The intruder must be attempting to or have made unlawful and forcible entry into an occupied home, business or vehicle.
2. The occupants must have a reasonable belief that the intruder is entering with the intention of committing a felony crime such as burglary.
3. The occupants must have a reasonable belief that they are in danger of serious injury or death at the hands of the intruder.
4 The occupants must be innocent of any provocation and cannot have instigated the intrusion or initiated the event by a threat of deadly force.
If I read what you wrote correctly, 3 out of the 4 conditions existed (1, 2, & 4) and yet the homeowner was in the wrong? At the point of break-in how would said homeowner know if item 3 would happen? They are simply supposed to "wait and see"? Sure seems like the system failed unless there is more to it.

 

[rubberchicken]

Any public records would only give high-level account; more info would come from a reputable news article, or trial transcript. I would say the homeowner made two huge errors after the shooting: #1 is failure to say "I want a lawyer" , #2 is failure to keep his mouth shut until he talked with his lawyer.

 

[bubbatime]

I think I heard of a similar case. Going off memory, I think I remember that a homeowner shot a drunk burglar that had broke in and fell asleep on his couch. A drunk sleeping person is not a threat if they are sleeping on your couch. So while yes, technically they are illegally in your house, most juries would find you at fault if you shot a sleeping drunk on your couch, even in a castle doctrine state. So the castle doctrine must be applied with a little common sense.

Criminal prosecution of defensive firearm use is often based on what a reasonable person would be expected to do in a similar situation. Most people would reasonably think it a better idea to call the police and have them deal with the sleeping trespasser than to shoot them.

 

[AZjeff]

Originally Posted By: Bandito440
Criminal cases are public record, so you could verify the details of this story before spreading it.

Why know when you can guess though, right?


Actually no. My daughter witnessed a man sentenced to prison for what he thought was legally defending his home. No guessing involved. I'm not spreading a story, I'm sharing what my daughter saw happen in court.

Again, my only point was know your local law. Sorry I brought it up.

 

[SaturnIonVue]

Does it really matter what a states' law says...after all there are probably only 50 or so of them on this subject. Each of them (can and do) set a precedent for another case in or out of that state. After the lawyers, a jury, and a judge get done with a case of interpreting the law(s) it finally turns out that the law IS what somebody else says it is, or WANTS it to be!! Is or was the decision based on what really happened, or based on what could be proven--rightly or wrongly. Convictions based on inflated charges or bogus/inflated evidence does little to inspire confidence. The entire legal system is corrupted when a system of justice is driven by "money" and little that looks much like justice and fairness. Jails-prisons are filled with people who need to be where they are, but among that crowd are more than a few law abiding people who otherwise ran afoul of the system, a system only too happy to make you or them, an example!

Consider:

How much per hour does a civil or criminal lawyer charge a client to represent them?
How much per hour does Mr. Joe Average earn?
What likely is the ratio of earnings between client and lawyer?

The real question now becomes...how much justice can you, or Mr. Joe Average afford?
How much can Joe Average afford to spend to defend himself, or to earn his "get out of jail-free card"?

Especially, if he is innocent? Louisiana jails and prisons have a significant number of people who have lost that lottery...particularly in a privately run (for profit) prison system suspected of artificially maintaining high population rates! Prostituting Attorneys with political ambitions don't provide much confidence in many legal systems either.

Color me a skeptic on the justice/legal system! The Lady of Justice, blindfolded with the scales of justice in the balance is too often deaf, dumb, and blind!

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
Criminal cases are public record, so you could verify the details of this story before spreading it.

Why know when you can guess though, right?


Actually no. My daughter witnessed a man sentenced to prison for what he thought was legally defending his home. No guessing involved. I'm not spreading a story, I'm sharing what my daughter saw happen in court.

Again, my only point was know your local law. Sorry I brought it up.


What is the story behind the shooting? If you can't provide details, then why bring it up?

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
Criminal cases are public record, so you could verify the details of this story before spreading it.

Why know when you can guess though, right?


Actually no. My daughter witnessed a man sentenced to prison for what he thought was legally defending his home. No guessing involved. I'm not spreading a story, I'm sharing what my daughter saw happen in court.

Again, my only point was know your local law. Sorry I brought it up.
Sorry dude. This would have made it's rounds on all the gun forums if it were as stated. Some BIG/HUUUUGE details are missing.

 

[LoneRanger]

Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
Criminal cases are public record, so you could verify the details of this story before spreading it.

Why know when you can guess though, right?


Actually no. My daughter witnessed a man sentenced to prison for what he thought was legally defending his home. No guessing involved. I'm not spreading a story, I'm sharing what my daughter saw happen in court.

Again, my only point was know your local law. Sorry I brought it up.


What is the story behind the shooting? If you can't provide details, then why bring it up?



+1

No way to know, but since we must guess due to the blaring lack of facts about the case. How about the name of the convicted defendant? That would be public record (if adult).

 

[Bandito440]

Don't be sorry that you brought it up. Be sorry that you didn't verify the story before sharing it. Trust, but verify.

Even knowing when and where this alleged sentencing took place would allow us to look at the court's docket for that day and find out the name of the defendant. We could then access documents of the case and find news articles from the original incident. Surely there would be something from a home invasion/burglary/homicide.

 

[i_hate_autofraud]

When the purp sues, dismiss on the "clean hands doctrine" he came to rob, he has unclean hands since he was committing a crime
and already crossed the threshold of criminal intent - "mens rea"

 

[totegoat]

Was it a jury trial?

 

[OVERKILL]

Something about this doesn't make sense, here's another Arizona case which is far murkier (homeowner chased the thief and shot her twice):

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizona-news/56274656-story

 

[funflyer]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
There is no news story, never said there was. Again, my daughter was Clerk of the Court the day of the homeowner's sentencing. There's nothing for anyone here to figure out. Apparently the details of the case were reviewed by the judge and he gave the sentence. My daughter is very careful about following the rules about what she can talk about. The homeowner thought he could shoot someone solely because they were in his house with no weapon apparent and no indication of imminent deadly threat. She called to make sure I understand the law about the use of deadly force. I appreciated her concern and thought I'd pass it along.

Make all the snarky comments you want, the guy went to prison. I hoped this thread wouldn't go this way.

Absolutely no legal reason your daughter couldn't share the details with you now that the case is over. I bet if we knew the details of the case, it wouldn't surprise us that this guy went to prison. He probably knew the intruder, or is a criminal himself and a clear cut case of [censored].

 

[Rand]

Around here it would be a 99% chance of some methhead stealing to get drugs.
If someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night they are getting a hatchet to the face or a bullet.
There wont be a survivor to sue me.. his family can try.

Alot of people getting killed in home invasions nowadays.

I found that news article from a few months back funny.. where the guys son? shot and killed 3 intruders with an ar-15 and
Which isnt the funny part....


Now the family of one is suing him for "not giving them a chance it wasnt a fair fight"

3 punks break into your garage and loot it.. then come back later in the night masked with weapons..home invasion.. and you are supposed to give them a fair fight??? really.

 

[LoneRanger]

America is in dire need of massive and sweeping Tort Reform.

 

[4WD]

Google: John O'Quinn, King of Torts, RIP (for the irony of his end ...)

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted By: Rand
Now the family of one is suing him for "not giving them a chance it wasnt a fair fight"


That was in Broken Arrow, OK. Three white teens killed.

The girl (getaway driver) is facing MULTIPLE felony charges!!!

http://myfox8.com/2017/04/02/3-masked-te...-home-invasion/

http://kfor.com/2017/03/30/more-details-...-suspects-dead/


Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
America is in dire need of massive and sweeping Tort Reform.


Agree totally. Especially as crime goes up and up and up

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: SaturnIonVue
Does it really matter what a states' law says...after all there are probably only 50 or so of them on this subject. Each of them (can and do) set a precedent for another case in or out of that state. After the lawyers, a jury, and a judge get done with a case of interpreting the law(s) it finally turns out that the law IS what somebody else says it is, or WANTS it to be!! Is or was the decision based on what really happened, or based on what could be proven--rightly or wrongly. Convictions based on inflated charges or bogus/inflated evidence does little to inspire confidence. The entire legal system is corrupted when a system of justice is driven by "money" and little that looks much like justice and fairness. Jails-prisons are filled with people who need to be where they are, but among that crowd are more than a few law abiding people who otherwise ran afoul of the system, a system only too happy to make you or them, an example!

Consider:

How much per hour does a civil or criminal lawyer charge a client to represent them?
How much per hour does Mr. Joe Average earn?
What likely is the ratio of earnings between client and lawyer?

The real question now becomes...how much justice can you, or Mr. Joe Average afford?
How much can Joe Average afford to spend to defend himself, or to earn his "get out of jail-free card"?

Especially, if he is innocent? Louisiana jails and prisons have a significant number of people who have lost that lottery...particularly in a privately run (for profit) prison system suspected of artificially maintaining high population rates! Prostituting Attorneys with political ambitions don't provide much confidence in many legal systems either.

Color me a skeptic on the justice/legal system! The Lady of Justice, blindfolded with the scales of justice in the balance is too often deaf, dumb, and blind!
You are entitled to a Public Defender if you can't afford a lawyer. They represent you without charge and are often the best criminal lawyers in the courthouse....they do it all day, every day.

 

[DBMaster]

To counter the poster who stated that crimes go "up and up" the actual crime rates have been dropping over the last twenty years. Even the total numbers of most crimes have been dropping - all of this with an increasing population. I often wonder why we always think things are getting worse when they're not. I guess with all the immediacy of information availability, plus the massive increase in "news" outlets we just hear about more of the incidents.

 

[AZjeff]

Sorry to waste everyone's time. Daughter's impression was this was an ordinary guy who thought his actions were legal, that he could shoot the intruder for no other reason that being in his house. Apparently this was noted during the proceedings she worked. Clerks are ridiculously busy, I'm not going to ask her to find the guy's name so he can be re-tried here and ridiculed.

An apparent local example of an SD shooting done wrong or gone bad and a sincere suggestion to be sure of your local SD laws was my only intention. Apologies.