Full-SAPS A3/B4 A40-style Euro lube with a twist...

[travis8352]

A little bird told me about a thread in which a certain delusional former member is making allusions to how this concept is somehow derivative of their incessant advocacy for running Redline 5W-30 in the HEMI, and that he deserves credit. I do admit the mental gymnastics required to come to that conclusion are impressive! Quite creative.

As I CLEARLY articulated in the OP, the motivation behind this oil has to do with my fondness for Full-SAPS Euro lubes, which long pre-dates said individual's brief and rather unremarkable membership here. This is entirely consistent with my recognition of the performance, and use, of oils in that category like M1 0W-40, Castrol 0W-40, Ravenol SSL 0W-40...etc. This was inspired by my years of interaction with Doug Hillary.

I haven't done a VOA or UOA yet, so I have no idea what the moly levels are. The levels of any specific additive never entered the picture when I jokingly asked Dave if he could put a full-SAPS Euro additive package in a 0W-20 for me. The focus was on the overall AW chemistry of the oil that was the original SRT oil (M1 0W-40), which I consider one of Mobil's "best efforts" and a considerable step-up from your basic API/ILSAC resource conserving offerings. I've consistently run A40/LL-01/229.5/502 00 Euro lubes in all my 6.4's, and some of them (Ravenol) have had no moly in them at all, instead using Tungsten.

In the case of what the FM levels in this oil do end up looking like? Well, they are whatever Dr. Rudnick chose as part of his formulation efforts in working with the additive package selected and gave him the best results. What that ends up being is of no consequence to me, it could be titanium and borated esters, it could be a dimer/trimer moly blend, it could be a trimer/tungsten blend...etc. Ultimately, it's the formulator's decision and I trust his expertise.

I'll also add that this oil is not designed to "fix" or "mask" any perceived deficit or mechanical issue with the engine. None of my HEMI's have ticked or made any sort of worrisome noise. I'm of the mind that the Full-SAPS Euro additive packages, with the extensive testing employed and requirement to stand up over extended drains, is about as "good as it gets", and if I could get that in a viscosity that was appropriate for our truck, why wouldn't I? So here we are.

Perhaps this explanation wasn't necessary, but I'm not particularly fond of having my motivations inaccurately portrayed. If you'd like to know why he was actually banned, I'm sure if you PM'd a mod they could give you the reason.

Im with you 100% on everything in this post. I myself am doing mental gymnastics trying to understand the delusions i just read from this certain person. PM me if you would like

 

[BigShug681]

Im with you 100% on everything in this post. I myself am doing mental gymnastics trying to understand the delusions i just read from this certain person. PM me if you would like

I feel like I am missing the post where should one look?

 

[02zx9r rev2]

I feel like I am missing the post where should one look?

I’d like to see it as well

 

[The Critic]

It's a 0w-20!
View attachment 105996

I made the mistake of asking Dave @High Performance Lubricants if they could do their Euro Super Car 0w-40 (502/505, A3/B4, A40, 229.5, A40...etc), but in a 0w-20. He said of course they could. Thought it was a neat idea. Obviously it isn't licensable/appropriate for those approvals because the HTHS isn't high enough, but it's the same additive package.

So, imagine my surprise when he told me he'd already requested to have it made-up only a couple of days later then sends me the above PDS. VI is reasonably low, so very little VII. Base oil blend is PAO/POE/AN's. They haven't run MRV on it yet, he's going to update the PDS when they do. HTHS is high for a 0w-20 of course, due to the base oil blend.

I've ordered two cases, shipping will of course be brutal, so more is better so I'm not getting boned multiple times.

Then he decides to be a total goofball with my order and sends me this, lol, I just about died laughing:
View attachment 105997

What a guy, hahahah

Anyways, its in their catalog now, I suspect just as Super Car 0w-20, without the hilarious personalized bottles. Part # is visible on the bottle in case anyone else is interested in it.

There is now an unique part # in their system for "OVERKILL 0W-20."

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

It's a 0w-20!
View attachment 105996

I made the mistake of asking Dave @High Performance Lubricants if they could do their Euro Super Car 0w-40 (502/505, A3/B4, A40, 229.5, A40...etc), but in a 0w-20. He said of course they could. Thought it was a neat idea. Obviously it isn't licensable/appropriate for those approvals because the HTHS isn't high enough, but it's the same additive package.

So, imagine my surprise when he told me he'd already requested to have it made-up only a couple of days later then sends me the above PDS. VI is reasonably low, so very little VII. Base oil blend is PAO/POE/AN's. They haven't run MRV on it yet, he's going to update the PDS when they do. HTHS is high for a 0w-20 of course, due to the base oil blend.

I've ordered two cases, shipping will of course be brutal, so more is better so I'm not getting boned multiple times.

Then he decides to be a total goofball with my order and sends me this, lol, I just about died laughing:
View attachment 105997

What a guy, hahahah

Anyways, its in their catalog now, I suspect just as Super Car 0w-20, without the hilarious personalized bottles. Part # is visible on the bottle in case anyone else is interested in it.

Excellent.

You should come...

(This thread and that product is great, sense of humor at @High Performance Lubricants and I really like that.)

 

[OVERKILL]

Updated PDS with MRV:

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

It's a 0w-20!
View attachment 105996

I made the mistake of asking Dave @High Performance Lubricants if they could do their Euro Super Car 0w-40 (502/505, A3/B4, A40, 229.5, A40...etc), but in a 0w-20. He said of course they could. Thought it was a neat idea. Obviously it isn't licensable/appropriate for those approvals because the HTHS isn't high enough, but it's the same additive package.

So, imagine my surprise when he told me he'd already requested to have it made-up only a couple of days later then sends me the above PDS. VI is reasonably low, so very little VII. Base oil blend is PAO/POE/AN's. They haven't run MRV on it yet, he's going to update the PDS when they do. HTHS is high for a 0w-20 of course, due to the base oil blend.

I've ordered two cases, shipping will of course be brutal, so more is better so I'm not getting boned multiple times.

Then he decides to be a total goofball with my order and sends me this, lol, I just about died laughing:
View attachment 105997

What a guy, hahahah

Anyways, its in their catalog now, I suspect just as Super Car 0w-20, without the hilarious personalized bottles. Part # is visible on the bottle in case anyone else is interested in it.

You think this would work in a non-turbo Subaru for a late-Fall to early-Spring oil? It’s just a commuter. I’d likely do a UOA halfway thru just to keep tabs on viscosity.

 

[OVERKILL]

You think this would work in a non-turbo Subaru for a late-Fall to early-Spring oil? It’s just a commuter. I’d likely do a UOA halfway thru just to keep tabs on viscosity.

Absolutely.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Absolutely.

I’d love to pick up some MPG without hurting it. It’s @ 181k so it’s plenty “loose”. But I know my current HTHS & cSt is costing me a little- currently averaging about 27.3mpg and would love to tack some savings on, especially considering what the Oval Office is trying to do to people who generate value for this country…

 

[The Critic]

I’d love to pick up some MPG without hurting it. It’s @ 181k so it’s plenty “loose”. But I know my current HTHS & cSt is costing me a little- currently averaging about 27.3mpg and would love to tack some savings on, especially considering what the Oval Office is trying to do to people who generate value for this country…

Why not save 40% and just use their "standard" PCMO 5W20? A Subaru doesn't need an Euro additive system and the higher SAPS will not do your converters any favors.

 

[OVERKILL]

Why not save 40% and just use their "standard" PCMO 5W20? A Subaru doesn't need an Euro additive system and the higher SAPS will not do your converters any favors.

Not an issue unless he's burning a ton of oil but you certainly make a point on the price/cost savings. What's the HTHS of the standard PCMO?

 

[Graham Piccinini]

Why not save 40% and just use their "standard" PCMO 5W20? A Subaru doesn't need an Euro additive system and the higher SAPS will not do your converters any favors.

And if his Suby is burning oil, low SAPS will help the converter live longer somehow?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

And if his Suby is burning oil, low SAPS will help the converter live longer somehow?

It doesn’t burn any. Plus if the viscosity & TBN hold for 2x intervals, it’s far cheaper once I consider purchase price plus my time to change it… I get your view though

 

[The Critic]

And if his Suby is burning oil, low SAPS will help the converter live longer somehow?

Less likely to poison his converter.

It doesn’t burn any. Plus if the viscosity & TBN hold for 2x intervals, it’s far cheaper once I consider purchase price plus my time to change it… I get your view though

I don't think the PAO versions will last significantly longer than the Standard; most of the benefit is for cold temp performance.

 

[OVERKILL]

Less likely to poison his converter.


I don't think the PAO versions will last significantly longer than the Standard; most of the benefit is for cold temp performance.

I would typically expect an extended drain Euro additive package to hold up better, and subsequently, longer. Of course YMMV, it will depend on how the UOA's look.

 

[PimTac]

This sounds like a oil that would work well in the newer BMWs that recommend 0w-20.

 

[Graham Piccinini]

Less likely to poison his converter.

From what I've seen - in an oil burner cat converter is a goner, regardless of SAPS content in the oil. But if engine doesn't burn any oil - cat converter lives a happy life until age takes it's toll on it, regardless of SAPS content. Makes me wonder if High vs Low SAPS makes much difference in real world. I'm sure a perfectly controlled EPA lab/testing can come up with "justifiable" results (like 1% longer cat life), but issue seems slightly overblown, in my humble opinion... For a gasoline engine at least.

 

[The Critic]

From what I've seen - in an oil burner cat converter is a goner, regardless of SAPS content in the oil.

I don't know if I agree with that - my wife's Accord has been burning a quart every 2-3K for the last 100k miles and the original catalytic converter is still fine.

I am personally aware of numerous other examples.

 

[OVERKILL]

From what I've seen - in an oil burner cat converter is a goner, regardless of SAPS content in the oil. But if engine doesn't burn any oil - cat converter lives a happy life until age takes it's toll on it, regardless of SAPS content. Makes me wonder if High vs Low SAPS makes much difference in real world. I'm sure a perfectly controlled EPA lab/testing can come up with "justifiable" results (like 1% longer cat life), but issue seems slightly overblown, in my humble opinion... For a gasoline engine at least.

Low SAPS oils weren't introduced to protect catalysts, they were introduced to protect Diesel DPF's and the oils were dual rated, so they could be used in gasoline engines as well. Then when GPF's started appearing on European cars, the application of low SAPS oils became more broad. These DPF's and GPF's are far more sensitive to SAPS levels than traditional catalysts.

Remember, all the cars that called for full-SAPS oils for decades, had catalysts.

In North America, the introduction of phosphorous limits in PCMO's was introduced with API SM along with the push for thinner oils. Of note, oils that were excepted from these limits were your traditional full-SAPS Euro oil grades, 0w-40, 5w-40...etc. The limit only applied to xW-20 and xW-30 oils. This is still the case, the xW-40 grades are still excepted.

Given how weak the API approvals have typically been (easy to meet with cheap base oils) it's not surprising that oils that had a higher likelihood of being consumed, due to being blended with cheap, light base oils, were the focus on reducing phosphorous levels so that the emissions equipment could make it through the warranty period.

 

[The Critic]

Low SAPS oils weren't introduced to protect catalysts, they were introduced to protect Diesel DPF's and the oils were dual rated, so they could be used in gasoline engines as well. Then when GPF's started appearing on European cars, the application of low SAPS oils became more broad. These DPF's and GPF's are far more sensitive to SAPS levels than traditional catalysts.

Remember, all the cars that called for full-SAPS oils for decades, had catalysts.

In North America, the introduction of phosphorous limits in PCMO's was introduced with API SM along with the push for thinner oils. Of note, oils that were excepted from these limits were your traditional full-SAPS Euro oil grades, 0w-40, 5w-40...etc. The limit only applied to xW-20 and xW-30 oils. This is still the case, the xW-40 grades are still excepted.

Given how weak the API approvals have typically been (easy to meet with cheap base oils) it's not surprising that oils that had a higher likelihood of being consumed, due to being blended with cheap, light base oils, were the focus on reducing phosphorous levels so that the emissions equipment could make it through the warranty period.

Keep in mind that catalysts have become more efficient with the introduction of PZEV vehicles. OEM's also have an obligation to make the catalyst last the full length of the PZEV warranty, which is 10 years or 150K.

OEM's also allow for some oil consumption, so the oils must be able to not destroy catalysts during that timeframe.