Well you said "Essentially, they all do !" in post 77, as a response to my comment that there isn't any official oil licensing testing addressing fuel dilution that I know of. So that made it sound like you do know of official API, etc type official testing, but now you say you don't have any info or links. So do they, or don't they officially run fuel diluted oil as part of their official testing procedures to license an oil?
Fuel dilution - how harmful, how much wear?
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By essentially, I mean in a round about way. I think your point is quite legitimate regarding the adequacy of the tests.
What problems are created by fuel dilution?
Wear, sludge, varnish, corrosion etc. The tests have to take into account the real possibility of fuel dilution. And they have to be thin for CAFE. That is what I am trying to get at.
The language even goes into saying that auto manufacturers are to design and build engines for these very thin oils.
What I personally do not care for at all are Japanese style very thin oils with very high viscosity indexes.
That article about fuel dilution that TiGeo posted a link to, tried to bring it all together.
A lot of testing and experimenting is done by the phd's.
For example when fuel in the oil is burned off by extended high temperature driving, there is a volatile portion of the fuel that dissipates. Some parts of the fuel remain, as they do not burn off so readily.
A lot of testing and experimenting is done by the phd's.
For example when fuel in the oil is burned off by extended high temperature driving, there is a volatile portion of the fuel that dissipates. Some parts of the fuel remain, as they do not burn off so readily.
But they do not specifically test for fuel dilution when licensing an oil, and use that as a criteria factor in passing or failing the oil. That's my point ... no licensed oil was tested for fuel dilution. Yes, all kinds of research is done on the effects of fuel dilution, and the Google search link I posted earlier has all kinds of links with info about that if someone actually wants to do some self research.
Yes, as discussed many times on BITOG, engines that specify 0W-8 and 0W-16 have special design aspects. But I'd bet they don't design them with crazy fuel dilution as part of the equation. Fuel dilution over around 5% for a relatively long OCI isn't a good thing, regardless of the engine design.
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The simple fact is that gasoline is not a good lubricant at all, and gasoline can ruin the lubrication properties of oil and thin it out too. I'll echo what others said about a UOA being useless in determining engine wear. Excess fuel dilution can and will ruin an engine if left in the sump long enough. I agree with this comment from @ZeeOSix "Fuel dilution over around 5% for a relatively long OCI isn't a good thing, regardless of the engine design."
So how many vehicles with greater than say 5% fuel dilution as a regular occurance during OCIs also have engines that last ?
My response to this interrogatory is that we live in a world where many things are exaggerated.
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What's the definition of "engines that last"? ... ones that don't "blow-up"? On BITOG, it seems everything boils down to everything is fine unless it's something that makes engines "blow-up".
So if an engine has 2 or 3 times the wear rate due to too thin oil, too much fuel dilution, too dirty oil, too long OCIs, etc, but it "lasts" and didn't "blow-up", then it's all cool, lol.
The discussion is what are the detrimental effects of fuel dilution, regardless how many engines have a major fuel dilution problem. As mentioned a few times in this thread, some Honda engines have been damaged by excessive fuel dilution, it's also been discussed in other threads. Obviously, how the car is use, and in what environment it's used in has a factor, so it could happen to any engine to some degree.
Most people think something is "exaggerated" until it happens to them.
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Or when they abandon actual reasoning in order to promote a particular view. There is a lot of that going on here.Most people think something is "exaggerated" until it happens to them.
OK. Granted. But I would say an engine that does not grenade early of spec'd oil is a success.
The existence of Porsche C20 or BMW LL-14 FE+ or MB 229.71 does give a chuckle.
Let me give you an example of groupthink and dipstick hysteria re fuel dilution.
Of all people a pilot, gives what can rightly be labelled as sketchy, overly conclusive anecdotal evidence for how bad it is.
A rental late model Honda Accord with the "notorious" 1.5T engine was driven on the highway for a week, and the dipstick was 1 quart over full.
I tried to ask, was the dipstick checked at the beginning of the rental ? No response.
This sounds like a problem for Hertz fleet maintenance, not Honda.
I do feel bad for people with circa 2016 Honda 1.5T . They had no chance to be informed.
I still like the idea of HPL 10W20 and cycling in 1 or 2 quarts of fresh oil via fluid extractor when needed.
The existence of Porsche C20 or BMW LL-14 FE+ or MB 229.71 does give a chuckle.
Let me give you an example of groupthink and dipstick hysteria re fuel dilution.
Of all people a pilot, gives what can rightly be labelled as sketchy, overly conclusive anecdotal evidence for how bad it is.
A rental late model Honda Accord with the "notorious" 1.5T engine was driven on the highway for a week, and the dipstick was 1 quart over full.
I tried to ask, was the dipstick checked at the beginning of the rental ? No response.
This sounds like a problem for Hertz fleet maintenance, not Honda.
I do feel bad for people with circa 2016 Honda 1.5T . They had no chance to be informed.
I still like the idea of HPL 10W20 and cycling in 1 or 2 quarts of fresh oil via fluid extractor when needed.
Dogma has many faces.
So then dilution is a concern for you? Otherwise, you would not worry about changing it early through extraction.
But why go through all of that nonsense when you could just start off with a higher grade?
Yes, I would avoid direction injection all together (see username !)
HPL 10W20 and Rotella 15W40 are two entirely different oils.
A disagreement in "oil philosophy" is not a fail on anyone's part.
Your maintenance plan is solid.
But I am not trying to get pigs to fly. My maintenance plan is methodical and valid.
Frankly, the entirety of BITOG is "nonsense" isn't it ?
But we are all here--and loving every minute of it.
When returning a car to Herz I tried to convince the Herz person that one of the tires was slowly leaking air and this needs to be fixed. Every third day I had to inflate it somehow/somewhere. The Herz person did not take note, he did not care at all.
Too much oil? Who would care?
Why do you think that? ... because your "dogma" doesn't agree with other's "dogma", or the dogma of all the technical information on Tribology that is linked in most of these types of discussions?
I love, love this "nonsense" we all subscribe to.Why do you think that? ... because your "dogma" doesn't agree with other's "dogma", or the dogma of all the technical information on Tribology that is linked in most of these types of discussions?
I gladly jump down into the rabbit hole, like the rest of BITOG and must say it's a beautiful thing.
The Honda class action suit is must watch.
Re: the 1 quart increase in sump level. The 2.4 liter engine that preceded the Honda 1.5 had a refill capacity of about 1 quart more. On some of the Honda boards there are instances where the tech doing the oil change simply misread or misinterpreted the specs and added a quart too much. Not saying this was the cause here, but the folks doing oil changes aren’t typically master mechanics…
One of the things I noticed over the years about oil is that when someone posts a high mileage car it will be almost universally accepted that the oil choice was a major contributor.
Now, if someone posts some sort of failure like excessive oil consumption, or a damaged camshafts, then it’s almost universally hailed as a manufacturing defect, or owner neglect even if the miles are high.
You just can’t have a logical discussion, even on a theoretical level because sooner or later someone will demand a proof in the form of blown up engines.
Somehow people cannot imagine that engines can simply wear out and hardly ever have a catastrophic failure.
Now, if someone posts some sort of failure like excessive oil consumption, or a damaged camshafts, then it’s almost universally hailed as a manufacturing defect, or owner neglect even if the miles are high.
You just can’t have a logical discussion, even on a theoretical level because sooner or later someone will demand a proof in the form of blown up engines.
Somehow people cannot imagine that engines can simply wear out and hardly ever have a catastrophic failure.
At the first HPL Open House very smart people said there is nothing one can do about fuel dilution.
In the sticky'd thread Q's and A's @ BITOG PCMO Pennzoil GF-6 and GF-7. it is pointed to the manufacturers.
There are undeniable forces push it all in different directions.
Something's gotta give.
There is nothing that can be done in terms of oil formulation to mitigate the detrimental effects of fuel dilution. The only thing that can be done by the owner is don't short trip the car much if possible, and if dilution is obviously excessive then run an oil grade higher and change the oil more often. That's assuming there isn't a problem with the car like bad injectors or other things making it run way too rich and overly diluting the oil.
This peer viewed research paper which is published a few months earlier digs deep and explores this topic from every possible angle. It's in Russian however and I haven't had a chance to translate and review it yet, but if someone speaks Russian or has read this article, please summarize this for us!
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ine_oil_causes_and_effects_Part_I_and_Part_II
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ine_oil_causes_and_effects_Part_I_and_Part_II
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