Freedom Worx ... video about pre-filling filters

[dnewton3]

There's a new YT vid from Freedom Worx regarding pre-filling oil filters. "The TRUTH about PRE-FILLING oil filters ... ACTUAL SCIENCE" is the title
I won't link it, you'll have to go to YT and find it yourself; there are some elements (profanity and sexual innuendo) which violate our policies; so viewer discretion advised ...

While his approach is admittedly "garage science", it's most certainly entertaining and reasonably well produced. It's 40 minutes long, and yet I don't find myself exhausted as if I had watched LSJr or SK. This guy injects enough sly humor into his vids to keep you entertained, and yet the substance of his content is still valuable.

I believe several of the conclusions he comes to at the end are valid.
- pre-fill or not has no real appreciable effect on wear
- bearing wear isn't typically the cause of necessity to rebuild an engine
- bearing wear is often a matter of contamination, not oil brand/grade
- most engine wear isn't from start-up to full oil pressure (seconds); rather, it's from start-up to full operating temp (minutes)

I'll note that some of the SAE studies he references are very old, and may not be as applicable today. But still, his points are salient and worthy of consideration. Also, this "wear from less than full engine temp" may well be the reason many hybrids today are calling for 0w-16, even 0w-8 lubes; thinner oils flow better at cold temps (obviously) and those hybrid drivetrain engines see very short operation cycles, meaning they probably rarely operate at a full-temp.

One thing he does not address is the TCB (tribochemical barrier) as is the subject of SAE paper 2007-01-4133; that also shows how wear is affected by the beneficial oxidation coating on the engine components relative to OCI duration.


All in all, a fun video IMO, and worthy of discussion here.

 

[Fair enough]

I thought engine bearings didn’t need oil pressure according to internet oil forum experts.
Engine bearings oxidize? I’ve wondered why they don’t anodize aluminum for bearings, leaving a layer of hard sapphire.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

There is a thread already in the humor section, might want to merge?

 

[dnewton3]

Engine bearings oxidize? I’ve wondered why they don’t anodize aluminum for bearings, leaving a layer of hard sapphire.

The SAE study I refer to details the effects of the oil being oxidized and laying down a protective film on engine components, especially on bearings. It's not that the parts oxidize; the oil does.

Like most things in life, moderation is the key. Too much oxidation is bad for the oil. A little oil oxidation is good for the bearings when it deposits a protective film on parts.

Go purchase and read the SAE to which I refer to understand it fully.

 

[dnewton3]

There is a thread already in the humor section, might want to merge?

Not any longer; violation of our policies. That thread was sent to quarantine.

The video itself has profanity and sexual innuendo. DO NOT LINK THE VIDEO here on BITOG !!!

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Alright in that case I will repost what I said there.

I thought the video was entertaining and I pretty much totally agree with his conclusion(s).

 

[gfh77665]

There's a new YT vid from Freedom Worx regarding pre-filling oil filters.

While his approach is admittedly "garage science", it's most certainly entertaining and reasonably well produced.

I never heard of Freedom Worx but why is his "admittedly garage science" something deemed worthy but Project Farm is frowned upon here? PF never, ever claims scientific accuracy, likewise, its just a "garage" experience.

 

[dnewton3]

Because this video (and several of his others) blends reasonably credible test methods and then shows good correlation to SAE papers which corroborate his conclusions. There are things I find hard to accept simply because of his DOE. But overall, there's good plausible material there for conversation, which was the intent of my posting the topic here. I like the concept of this video; to test the pre-fill theory. And he has a decent methodology. But his data is woefully lacking; three data points isn't enough to make solid conclusions upon, mainly because there's zero ability to understand how much normal variation is in play. Plus, I am not a big fan of HALT (highly accelerated life tests) DOEs, as they don't always translate well into real life. People often take HALTs out of context and make conclusions which are not applicable to the car in one's garage (for example, the infamous GM filter study). In short, this "test" he runs does show anecdotal evidence which is conceptually validated by multiple SAE papers he puts forth for consideration. He at least attempts to back up his data with other data from well-established lab tests.

OTOH, I have yet to see PF reference anything even remotely technically viable; he never supports or refutes anything with SAE papers, or any other credible testing source or repository data. Further, many of the tests he runs have no practical application; such as seeing how long it takes cold oil to drain down a tube ...
PF videos mislead the uninformed into making bad conclusions. If that's the kind of information you value, then by all means, follow the path he clears for you. Further, we do not restrict all PF videos here; just the ones that clearly mislead folks in regards to tribology related topics. When he does things like compare/contrast chain saws, or weed-eater heads, or power tools, etc, ... we've not restricted those.

 

[Jetronic]

you might not need to wait for the oil to oxidise, and get the deposits, if you use an oil with pre-oxidised components.

 

[Sayjac]

And the Bottom Line 'for me' FW says early on, "I prefill my oil filters and even if the science were to say it doesn't matter, I'd still do it....." Full stop! Same here, where practicable I'll continue to do so. Didn't see anything in the vid beyond just plain carelessness opening/handling the jug, to say otherwise.

 

[dnewton3]

One of the many topics he introduces at the end is the concept of wear relative to engine loading. There are several SAE studies which corroborate this concept. Further, my own UOA database (somewhere north of 35k of them by now) shows correlation to that as well. The main wear metals in a normal, healthy engine are Fe and Cr (from the cylinders and rings). The other metals (Cu, Pb, Tn) should be low, nearly at "noise" levels, regardless of the OCI duration. I've had several UOAs of my own that truly track with the use of fuel (indicative of loading). Towing my RV or large tractor means I'm going to need more power, which means more fuel burned per mile, which translates into higher cylinder pressures, and finally more wear metals.

Back when I had my 6.6L Dmax, I was closely tuned to other folks here who also ran Dmax engines. I'd take their UOA data and compare/contrast it to my own, and against macro data norms. Pre-fill or not, didn't matter. Synthetics or conventional, didn't matter. 10w-30 or 5w-40, didn't matter. The wear rates generally were only affected by fuel burn (engine loading). In fact, the oil consumption was also proportional to fuel burn (1 qrt per 100 gallons was GMs official limit of acceptable).

I agree that prefilling is not detrimental, assuming you don't accidentally contaminate the lube with particulate. Prefilling is, at times, fairly easy (vertical mounted spin-on with open end up). But lots of applications are tilted, or horizontal, or downward facing (making pre-filling all but impossible), and yet those engines have no higher wear rates than "open end up" applications. Further, cartridge filter applications also generally don't have the ability to "pre-fill"; those engine don't see high failure rates either.

Does pre-filling hurt? No.
Does pre-filling help? No.
To each their own.

 

[burbguy82]

Does pre-filling hurt? No.
Does pre-filling help? No.
To each their own.

I agree

Oil pressure does come up sooner if you pre fill, of course that may not mean anything in practical application.

The only thing I could see would be possible damage to the filter media. During the abrupt change from laminar to turbulent to laminar flow. Whether this is accounted for in filter construction is unknown to me.

I have seen water filter media get destroyed by air pressure bubble in a plumbing system. ..... a 10 micron filter, but it was not reinforced by metal or polymer structure as in an oil filter.

 

[malibuguy79]

I watched it this morning and I liked the video it was entertaining yet mostly informative.

In the few videos I have seen from him about oil, I think he tries alot harder to be more real and factual about whats going on and the results vs PF. Plus the little jokes and cool rides help. Obviously he is no LSJr tribologist.

Does it alter what I do? Not really, does it make me feel a little better about what I do...yeah actually

 

[ZeeOSix]

I thought engine bearings didn’t need oil pressure according to internet oil forum experts.

Journal bearings don't need oil pressure to operate correctly. The simple act of their rotation is what creates the oil film wedge that keeps them afloat. Oil pressure is ONLY required to supply at least the minimum required oil flow to make up for the bearing's side leakage. Even if an adequate oil supply to a journal bearing was by gravity, they will operate correctly. As I said before in another thread discussing journal bearings, you need to do a lot more self-study on journal bearings to fully understand them.

 

[twX]

I'm familiar with the cold start wear studies he references, and IMO, his interpretation of them is bang on. The piston ring and liner wear that occurs at low coolant temperatures seems to be corrosive wear, caused by water and acids from combustion that condense onto the cold cylinder liners. It's completely unrelated to lubrication.

I also agree that the common claim that "most engine wear occurs on cold starts" is based on these piston ring wear studies. It doesn't seem like there are any other studies out there that show this claim to be true for any other part of an engine. The only exception would be the cold pumping studies that have shown high rates of bearing wear when the oil is so cold that it's borderline unpumpable.

 

[ZeeOSix]

One of the many topics he introduces at the end is the concept of wear relative to engine loading. There are several SAE studies which corroborate this concept. Further, my own UOA database (somewhere north of 35k of them by now) shows correlation to that as well.

Of course more engine loading causes more wear because more load on parts decreases the MOFT between moving parts which makes them rub harder together, thereby causing more wear. That's why the same engine used in a race car doesn't last nearly as long as the same engine cruising around the streets in a normal use conditions.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

The thing that tends to make one pause is this: Just how long have we been a true automobile society? Quite a long time. At least near
100 years if not more. So, if the pre-fill of filters is so critical, then how come so many auto makers and even engine builders have not designed engines with filters that are mounted in a way that allows one to pre-fill their filters and mount them without making a mess?
I can not ever recall owning any truck or car that came with the filter in a mounted position from the factory that allowed me to even consider doing a pre-fill of my filters. I have actually considered on many occasions ordering some after market filter re-location kits but
ended up never doing that since I have had no engine or oil troubles in any of our vehicles since the late 60s. Yeah it is a good idea/thought for discussion yet I have seen no convincing evidence to make it a priority for anyone from the auto manufacturers to the auto buyers.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The only thing I could see would be possible damage to the filter media. During the abrupt change from laminar to turbulent to laminar flow. Whether this is accounted for in filter construction is unknown to me.

What damages filter media is too much dP across the media, regardless if the flow is laminar or turbulent. If the oil flow rate is relatively low on a start-up were the filter wasn't pre-filled, or the filter and galleries after has drained down due to a leaky ADBV, and the resulting dP is below the tearing threshold, then the filter media shouldn't be damaged. Building oil pressure in the system quicker will help put the pump into pressure relief quicker and cut back flow rate if it's not already. Just don't do high revs with cold oil on cold start-ups to decrease the chance of tearing weak filter media.

 

[Patman]

I remember hearing almost 40 years ago when I first started driving that most of your engine wear happens during the time when it’s warming up and not much wear at all happens once the engine is warmed up and you are at a steady highway speed. It’s that reason why I have always driven my cars very gently during that time period. I have never had to rebuild an engine yet (granted the highest mileage car I’ve had is my current Civic and it’s at 260,000 km so it’s really not that high mileage yet) I have also never owned a car that burned excessive amounts of oil either.

That being said, IMO driving style plays a bigger factor in longevity than oil and filter choices. As a side note I still chuckle when people say that they change their oil every 3k in order to get the longest life from their engines, when their driving habits are likely what contributes more in that regard.

 

[Lilliston]

Also, this "wear from less than full engine temp" may well be the reason many hybrids today are calling for 0w-16, even 0w-8 lubes; thinner oils flow better at cold temps (obviously) and those hybrid drivetrain engines see very short operation cycles, meaning they probably rarely operate at a full-temp.

Do I understand you right that you think the high wear rates prior to coolant temp reaching (at least approaching) operating temp around the cylinders is because the oil flow is reduced prior to that time, rather than it being to do with either corrosive wear as another poster hypothesized, or poor parts fit or 'shape' during warm-up?