FRAM Ultra XG2 - 2019 RAM 1500

OVERKILL

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As promised, this is the filter off the RAM 1500 in my signature. This was the same usage profile as the Jeep, but longer OCI, since this oil was installed November 18th, 2021 at 49,044Km and removed from service July 7th, 2022 at 59,018Km, so roughly 10,000Km (6,200 mile) OCI.

Oil used was M1 EP 0W-20.

Unlike the XG2 that came off the Jeep, this filter looks amazing and is extremely clean with no build-up on the combo spring/relief valve or bottom of the canister. All contaminants were kept in suspension and nothing plated-out.
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ZeeOSix

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I'd add a rubber band tight on both ends near where the ends of the pleats meet the end caps. Gets more contact in that area.
 

Shel_B

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As promised, this is the filter off the RAM 1500 in my signature. This was the same usage profile as the Jeep, but longer OCI, since this oil was installed November 18th, 2021 at 49,044Km and removed from service July 7th, 2022 at 59,018Km, so roughly 10,000Km (6,200 mile) OCI.

Oil used was M1 EP 0W-20.

Unlike the XG2 that came off the Jeep, this filter looks amazing and is extremely clean with no build-up on the combo spring/relief valve or bottom of the canister. All contaminants were kept in suspension and nothing plated-out.

Are you suggesting that the engine/usage primarily helped the results or are you attributing the results to the oil? What does it mean to be "plated out?"
 

OVERKILL

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Are you suggesting that the engine/usage primarily helped the results or are you attributing the results to the oil? What does it mean to be "plated out?"
I'm just comparing it to what I saw with the XG2 from my SRT.

The 5.7L doesn't fuel dilute like the 6.4L does, so even though this has twice the mileage on it, it probably had an easier life. Plated-out, means it came out of suspension and was laid-down on a surface. That's how varnish forms on surfaces in your engine, the additive package (dispersants and detergents) can no longer hold the contaminants in suspension, so they plate-out; they get laid down on surfaces, typically cooler ones of lower flow, like the cylinder head, and accumulate. As they are exposed to heat these resins harden and become sticky and that's varnish.

What I am suggesting is that this oil/filter combo appears to have worked well; held up sufficiently for this duty profile and service interval, based on what I'm seeing here. We'll know more once my UOA kits show up from AMSOIL. They had to come from the US warehouse, so they are slow unfortunately. I do not expect the truck to show significant fuel dilution however.
 
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As promised, this is the filter off the RAM 1500 in my signature. This was the same usage profile as the Jeep, but longer OCI, since this oil was installed November 18th, 2021 at 49,044Km and removed from service July 7th, 2022 at 59,018Km, so roughly 10,000Km (6,200 mile) OCI.

Oil used was M1 EP 0W-20.

Unlike the XG2 that came off the Jeep, this filter looks amazing and is extremely clean with no build-up on the combo spring/relief valve or bottom of the canister. All contaminants were kept in suspension and nothing plated-out.
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Looks very good. Thank You for posting🇨🇦👍🍻
 

Shel_B

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I'm just comparing it to what I saw with the XG2 from my SRT.

The 5.7L doesn't fuel dilute like the 6.4L does, so even though this has twice the mileage on it, it probably had an easier life. Plated-out, means it came out of suspension and was laid-down on a surface. That's how varnish forms on surfaces in your engine, the additive package (dispersants and detergents) can no longer hold the contaminants in suspension, so they plate-out; they get laid down on surfaces, typically cooler ones of lower flow, like the cylinder head, and accumulate. As they are exposed to heat these resins harden and become sticky and that's varnish.

What I am suggesting is that this oil/filter combo appears to have worked well; held up sufficiently for this duty profile and service interval, based on what I'm seeing here. We'll know more once my UOA kits show up from AMSOIL. They had to come from the US warehouse, so they are slow unfortunately. I do not expect the truck to show significant fuel dilution however.
For me, that's good to know. I always thought varnish was the result of too few oil changes (overlong long OCIs), but if I understand you correctly, even more frequent changes with a marginal oil can result in varnish.

If engine varnish is anything like the polymerized oil on cookware, it's nearly impossible to remove easily, if at all. Perhaps HPL cleaner or oil use would help such a situation?
 

OVERKILL

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For me, that's good to know. I always thought varnish was the result of too few oil changes (overlong long OCIs), but if I understand you correctly, even more frequent changes with a marginal oil can result in varnish.
Exactly! Varnish is the result of a number of factors that work together and while typically one of those factors is excessive time in service, that's not always the case, at least from a time or mileage perspective even if from a process perspective it's technically true still. Once an oil's additive package is overwhelmed by these contaminants and it can no longer keep them in suspension, they will plate-out as either varnish (with heat) or sludge (with moisture). But as you alluded to, not all oils are created equal and while you might be safe with 10,000 miles on one, due to a more robust additive package, another may get saturated at far fewer miles/hours and begin this process of allowing these contaminants to lay-down. So technically, "excessive" is a variable that's dictated by the additive package's saturation point and not a fixed mileage/hourly figure, even though in order to reach that saturation point, time/mileage are a factor. Make sense?
If engine varnish is anything like the polymerized oil on cookware, it's nearly impossible to remove easily, if at all. Perhaps HPL cleaner or oil use would help such a situation?
Well that's exactly what it is. You have broken down VII's, base oil molecules (as the result of oxidation), and combustion byproducts that are picked-up by the oil during service. The additive package prevents these from agglomerating, which is part of what allows them to stay in suspension. This is the role of the dispersants, the detergents are what pick them up and put them in suspension; keep them off surfaces. However, once they start agglomerating and laying down, you add heat and it is the same process as the polymerization of oil on cookware, but with the addition of other contaminants in the mix. As you note, it is extremely difficult to remove once it has fully hardened. In the earlier stages, if you touch it, it is quite tacky, just like varnish you'd use on a floor or furniture.

Esters, because they are polar, fight for surface competition. This results in them displacing other molecules, like those of varnish, in the process. It is a very slow process however. AN's are also good surfactants, but they are less polar than esters and therefore don't compete for surface space with the additive package but they are still excellent cleaners and because you don't have the surface competition issue, you can use more them. In fact, I shared a paper I found on AN's in the Dr. Rudnick thread, IIRC. But, they present a formulation challenge still because they have low VI's, and poor cold temperature performance. I assume they are also expensive, like esters.
 

Shel_B

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Thanks for that thorough response (Post #9 in this thread). It suggests to me that oils meeting minimum standards may not be adequate for longer OCIs or more extreme conditions. Of course, this has been said here many times and the admonishment is often found in owners' manuals and service recommendations.

It's often suggested here to buy the cheapest oil that meets the spec, and that may be acceptable advice for certain situations and engines, but in many situations, it may be advisable to run a better quality oil to assure long-term engine health and reliability. I subscribe to using a better quality oil just to be on the safe side even though, more than once, it's been suggested that I'm wasting money/resources by using M1 EP.

However, there's another aspect to this that gives me pause for thought. Blackstone (and other sources, such as found in @dnewton3's article about engine wear suggests that there are no significant wear differences between oils and even the length of an OCI doesn't always affect wear. I think it's this article:


The article also indicates changing oil too soon can adversely affect wear, and that wear is reduced when the oil in the sump ages a bit. Might that be a good case to leave some residual oil in the engine when doing an oil change, such as changing the filter every other interval? Of course, even when changing out the filter, there's always some used oil left in the engine. The Camry has about 1.4 quarts that remain in the engine, others less.

What I'm trying to do is learn what may be the best balance between use and changes. Any thoughts you have would be welcome.

And I'd like to suggest to others here to read at least some of the articles found on this site's home page.

 

OVERKILL

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Thanks for that thorough response (Post #9 in this thread). It suggests to me that oils meeting minimum standards may not be adequate for longer OCIs or more extreme conditions. Of course, this has been said here many times and the admonishment is often found in owners' manuals and service recommendations.
Yes, and as has also been covered, certain engines, the recommendations in the owner's manuals have proven to be wholly insufficient, like with the Honda VCM V6's for example.
It's often suggested here to buy the cheapest oil that meets the spec, and that may be acceptable advice for certain situations and engines, but in many situations, it may be advisable to run a better quality oil to assure long-term engine health and reliability. I subscribe to using a better quality oil just to be on the safe side even though, more than once, it's been suggested that I'm wasting money/resources by using M1 EP.
Yup, exactly. You saw that Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe posted that was run on Quick Lube oil. It has extensive varnish inside, but still runs fine. For some people, that would be just fine, for others, not so much. That was using an oil that "meets the spec" at a conservative interval.
However, there's another aspect to this that gives me pause for thought. Blackstone (and other sources, such as found in @dnewton3's article about engine wear suggests that there are no significant wear differences between oils and even the length of an OCI doesn't always affect wear. I think it's this article:


The article also indicates changing oil too soon can adversely affect wear, and that wear is reduced when the oil in the sump ages a bit. Might that be a good case to leave some residual oil in the engine when doing an oil change, such as changing the filter every other interval? Of course, even when changing out the filter, there's always some used oil left in the engine. The Camry has about 1.4 quarts that remain in the engine, others less.
Yes, but wear and cleanliness are not "joined at the hip". Also, it depends on how you measure wear. Are we talking about tear-down analysis, with measurements, or are we talking about PPM observed via UOA's? A lubricant that's saturated also won't hold any more metals in suspension, so those metals plate-out as part of the agglomeration and lay-down process, ergo, they don't show in UOA's. However, even if the wear rate is unaffected, varnish build-up can negatively impact performance in multiple key areas such as oil control, compression and VCT operation.

That said, the argument about tribofilms is sound. An oil that's still serviceable (able to continue doing all of its jobs) does demonstrate the best amount of wear control; lowest wear rate, in studies that specifically measure that. So, the key is to strike that balance and extract the maximum value from that lubricant, without taking it too far and risking varnish/sludge. UOA's that measure oxidation can help here, as do TBN/TAN, coupled with visual inspection.
What I'm trying to do is learn what may be the best balance between use and changes. Any thoughts you have would be welcome.

And I'd like to suggest to others here to read at least some of the articles found on this site's home page.
Optimizing OCI length with a quality lubricant so that the maximum value is extracted from that lubricant is one of the proper uses of UOA's. As was shown with Doug Hillary's testing, massive sumps filled with a high quality synthetic (Delvac 1 5w-40) with centrifuges used to keep soot out of the oil, could safely have their interval extended to around 60,000 miles, confirmed through tear-down testing, which showed extremely low wear (every "as new" at 1.2 million km) and also, no deposits, which shows the additive package was able to deal with the contaminants.
 

JTK

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Thanks for posting.

I like the filter diaper idea. After I cut my filters open, I usually leave the media can sit on it's side for a day or so to drain as much residual as it will.

I'm about ready for an OCI on my 2019 Ram 1500 classic as well. I'm still doing them between 5-6K miles. 5K miles always falls at 50% remaining on the OLM.
 
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The last OG XG2 I dissected had 176.25 sq. in. of media area in it. The media looked like it had part of a mural painted on it in a previous life. Both pieces of the separated media. I wish I had taken some pictures of it. Pulled the media out while it was still wet and stood it on edge. It was almost dry in a week or so.
 

OVERKILL

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The last OG XG2 I dissected had 176.25 sq. in. of media area in it. The media looked like it had part of a mural painted on it in a previous life. Both pieces of the separated media. I wish I had taken some pictures of it. Pulled the media out while it was still wet and stood it on edge. It was almost dry in a week or so.
I normally just pull it apart wet, but I'm trying the technique @ZeeOSix mentioned with this one, and it seems to be working. Already soaked a 4-folded piece and I've swapped it out, this time with the elastics tighter and closer to the end caps.
 
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I tilt mine at about a 45 degree angle and most of the oil will come out in the one lowest spot. Oil seems to flow pretty easily out of the OG media.
 

OVERKILL

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I tilt mine at about a 45 degree angle and most of the oil will come out in the one lowest spot. Oil seems to flow pretty easily out of the OG media.
I did that and had it sitting over a jar for about 3 days with the baseplate still attached but the ADBV pushed back. Then I cut the base plate off and leaned the whole can over a jar for another day, at about 45 degrees.

However, it seems that this paper towel technique gets even more oil out of it.
 

ZeeOSix

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However, it seems that this paper towel technique gets even more oil out of it.
Just keep changing out the paper towels until the wicking is not happening much ... the media will look pretty dry at that point.
 
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