Fram Ultra not ok for my 2018 Impala??

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

We'll never know that without seeing some flow measurement data.

Very true. Although, I'm basically convinced that an oversize Fram Ultra for my application (small engine, 1.5L, uses Corvette's PF64) will avoid bypass events well enough. Based on some data estimates and basic hydraulic pressure-area trends using more media surface area than standard. ... Yes, we could use better data though!

Originally Posted by Ablebody

So am I right in understanding from some repies to this thread that wix is good about making filters to the manufacturers specs?

Yes. Wix, and the same clone NAPAGold, do seem to follow GM, Subaru recommendations, two manufacturers who believe in high bypass thresholds. Good efficiency there too, about 95% at 20 microns using a glass-paper blend media, better than paper filters.

Originally Posted by Garak

They sure talk about their own product and their own specifications as the only way to be, then get upset about patent infringement, as if everyone is in a rush to line up to copy the ecore design or brittle media in the first place.

Very true. User 'webfors' on these forums, on his '17 ATS (GM 2.0L turbo) had a flimsy paper PF64 get a rip in it, not good. Makes you wonder if the PF64 is really built that well. Engines may not blow up due to a rip-tear in the media like this, and the GM warranty dept. knows this, but nobody likes a hole in their oil fiter media, right? Extra wear maybe.

Originally Posted by carviewsonic

Even at that volume the Fram Ultra only drops about 5 psi, well below the bypass limits. I just don't understand what problem GM's service bulletin is trying to solve.

Remember viscosity (cold!) raises the pressure a lot. So your 5 psi example only applies when cool-to-warm. Thats the key to understanding all this, that its +10F cold morning starts that will likely cause bypass events, and GM tries to minimize this to some extent. These GM oil pumps create a 'big-ish' pressure spike at startup time due to placement of the feedback control pressure sensor so far downstream (engines since 2012), which means the flow (GPM) can be high at first. GM discusses washing garbage past the media during these possible bypass events, and, like us, they don't want that to happen too often, hence where their concern is.

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

I think GM is assuming people are going to do cold starts in -20F climates and rev the engine to redline before the oil warms up. I mean that's really the only way you could cause 20+ PSI across the media. Or else their AC Delco filters are very flow restrictive and produce lots of delta-p. We'll never know that without seeing some flow measurement data.

The line graph above shows the worst (Fram ToughGuard, old version of course, which I'll assume is like a paper PF64/63E) bypassing at +34F if a GM engine startup spike at 2 gpm (not sustained for a long time; just an initial open-loop spike) happens. Note that's +34F. Now lower the temperature to a typical winter morning +10F and, yes, you'll bypass often, especially with a restrictive paper filter like a PF64/63E that GM says is the cat's meow.

 

[irv]

Originally Posted by carviewsonic

Originally Posted by Garak

If it were me in charge at Fram, and it's not, so my opinion isn't worth the bits and bytes, but I'd verify that the filter is fine for the application, modify it if it isn't, and go with it. The OEMs like to talk out of both sides of their mouths on this issue. They sure talk about their own product and their own specifications as the only way to be, then get upset about patent infringement, as if everyone is in a rush to line up to copy the ecore design or brittle media in the first place. That's what an application guide is for. Either a filter company specifies a filter for a certain application, or they do not. There's no in between, and that's why I despise cross referencing, and even recommend caution when upsizing. I know the filter I'm using is a suitable upsize, but it's not the specified filter according to Wix. So, it's on me. Now, if Wix specifies it, then it had better be suitable for the application.

And Fram does specify the XG10575 for my 2018 Impala 3.6 LFX, 9- 15 psi bypass and all. After following this informative thread, I really can't see how my engine could cause that bypass to open very often. I researched aftermarket high pressure oil pumps for various street engines, and 10 gpm were about the highest volumes I came across. Even at that volume the Fram Ultra only drops about 5 psi, well below the bypass limits. I just don't understand what problem GM's service bulletin is trying to solve.

I had to look up our's for our 2017 3.6 Impala and I noticed it is still there as well. At first I thought you said "Fram Doesn't" which made me look quick as I knew in the past, this filter was recommended. http://www.fram.com/parts-search/?r...QBsAAgDMAOkEAZMlICWYSs2EARdMwCeZAFQgAukA I am not sure how many Ultras I now have in my personal stash for this car, but if I had to guess, I'd say likely enough for the next 3 to 4 OC's. Very interesting post, which now makes me a bit uncomfortable running these. Correction. I only have 2 Ultras remaining and have 3 TG's, which I purchased on sale. I decided to go the TG route as I believe in doing 2 OC's per year with this car as it mainly driven in stop and go traffic and is driven less than 20 kms a day in that environment. The Ultras, although all were purchased on sale, are overkill for this car, imo, and others on here.

 

[carviewsonic]

Posted by oil_film_movies "Remember viscosity (cold!) raises the pressure a lot. So your 5 psi example only applies when cool-to-warm. Thats the key to understanding all this, that its +10F cold morning starts that will likely cause bypass events, and GM tries to minimize this to some extent. These GM oil pumps create a 'big-ish' pressure spike at startup time due to placement of the feedback control pressure sensor so far downstream (engines since 2012), which means the flow (GPM) can be high at first. GM discusses washing garbage past the media during these possible bypass events, and, like us, they don't want that to happen too often, hence where their concern is." O.K., GM's service bulletin now makes sense to me. I knew that the bypass would sometimes open on cold starts, which I thought was no big deal, but GM wants to minimize this. I'm going to return my Fram Ultra's (Walmart), and just ordered a couple Royal Purple filters on Amazon. I phoned Royal Purple and their bypass for the Impala's filter is 18 - 22 psi, which matches GM's spec. The price was a few dollars higher than the Ultras, but I'm set for a couple of years now. Thankyou oil_film_movies, ZeeOSix and others for your input on this thread.

 

[carviewsonic]

Posted by Irv Very interesting post, which now makes me a bit uncomfortable running these. ???" If my car wasn't under warranty, I would have run the Ultras. The Royal Purple tech I talked to this morning told me that in his opinion oil filter bypass specs by OEM's are a matter of design preference, rather than right or wrong. Cold start - No bypass event and somewhat reduced oil pressure vs bypass and unfiltered oil for a short time.

 

[irv]

Originally Posted by carviewsonic

Posted by Irv Very interesting post, which now makes me a bit uncomfortable running these. ???" If my car wasn't under warranty, I would have run the Ultras. The Royal Purple tech I talked to this morning told me that in his opinion oil filter bypass specs by OEM's are a matter of design preference, rather than right or wrong. Cold start - No bypass event and somewhat reduced oil pressure vs bypass and unfiltered oil for a short time.

Our Impala is still under warranty too but I think I am going to use up what I have already purchased. No receipts, plus they are well past the 30 day return policy anyways. I am curious if GM's TSB takes into account the use of synthetic oil with regards to this TSB? With better cold flow properties than conventional, I am wondering just how necessary using another filter is? Also, since I have about 3 TG's on back up for this car, I wonder if the PSI settings on those are the same as the Ultra's? Also, going by the info you provided, the Ultra, although just barely, is still in spec. "Specifically, the Fram Ultra listed for my Impala has a Bypass Valve Setting of 9-15 psi. I just came across a GM service bulletin regarding the required spin on oil filter for my Impala, and the recommended GM filter Bypass Valve Setting is 14.5- 21.8 psi". CVS, how did you come across this TSB? Was it mailed to you or did you find it somewhere else? I find it funny/odd Fram would still recommend these filters for these Impalas with this TSB in affect? Maybe some more research is in order, if I can find anything else? Thanks for posting this up.

 

[carviewsonic]

Posted by Irv "CVS, how did you come across this TSB? Was it mailed to you or did you find it somewhere else? I find it funny/odd Fram would still recommend these filters for these Impalas with this TSB in affect? Maybe some more research is in order, if I can find anything else?" I came across it online while I was looking for something completely different, but I can't remember what that was I think the Fram Ultra would work very well, and the lower bypass setting would have little effect on engine life (some pluses and minuses, see my previous post). But with warranty to consider, I want to go with the bypass spec that matches GM's. Edited to add: GM has their Dex1Gen2 oil spec for these engines, and 5w-30 viscosity, so there shouldn't be too much difference in cold weather performance between oil brands meeting those specs.

 

[irv]

Originally Posted by carviewsonic

Posted by Irv "CVS, how did you come across this TSB? Was it mailed to you or did you find it somewhere else? I find it funny/odd Fram would still recommend these filters for these Impalas with this TSB in affect? Maybe some more research is in order, if I can find anything else?" I came across it online while I was looking for something completely different, but I can't remember what that was I think the Fram Ultra would work very well, and the lower bypass setting would have little effect on engine life (some pluses and minuses, see my previous post). But with warranty to consider, I want to go with the bypass spec that matches GM's. Edited to add: GM has their Dex1Gen2 oil spec for these engines, and 5w-30 viscosity, so there shouldn't be too much difference in cold weather performance between oil brands meeting those specs.

My wife's car only requires Dexos 1 and nowhere in the manual could I find anything about the oil filter, but maybe I missed it? (D1G2 is what I try to run but I have no worries just running D1 oil) https://my.chevrolet.com/content/da.../Chevrolet/Impala/2k17impala1stPrint.pdf I did find where GM recommends semi-synthetic oil however but nothing about the PSI range/setting with regards to oil filters. I find it odd, since this TSB is dated 2015, there isn't any info in the manual about it? I don't blame you for running the filter the TSB recommends. If I had my receipts handy, I'd likely return mine as well.

 

[carviewsonic]

From the 2017 Owners Manual.. PAGE 336 Service and Maintenance Maintenance Replacement Parts Replacement parts identified below by name, part number, or specification can be obtained from your dealer. Part GM Part Number ACDelco Part Number Engine Air Cleaner/Filter 2.5L L4 Engine 20972654 A3174C 3.6L V6 Engine 22753242 A3176C Engine Oil Filter 2.5L L4 Engine 12640445 PF64 3.6L V6 Engine 19330000, PF63E part 19330000 or PF63E is the same filter referenced in the GM Service Bulletin.. •Bypass valve opening pressure has been increased from 100 to 150â€kPa and is statistically more capable. Whatever "statistically more capable" means 100 to 150 kPa converts to 14.5- 21.8 psi; the old filter spec was 14.5 psi and new filter spec is 21.8 psi. Just realized, I stated that incorrectly as a range in my original post.

 

[irv]

Originally Posted by carviewsonic

From the 2017 Owners Manual.. PAGE 336 Service and Maintenance Maintenance Replacement Parts Replacement parts identified below by name, part number, or specification can be obtained from your dealer. Part GM Part Number ACDelco Part Number Engine Air Cleaner/Filter 2.5L L4 Engine 20972654 A3174C 3.6L V6 Engine 22753242 A3176C Engine Oil Filter 2.5L L4 Engine 12640445 PF64 3.6L V6 Engine 19330000, PF63E part 19330000 or PF63E is the same filter referenced in the GM Service Bulletin.. •Bypass valve opening pressure has been increased from 100 to 150â€kPa and is statistically more capable. Whatever "statistically more capable" means 100 to 150 kPa converts to 14.5- 21.8 psi; the old filter spec was 14.5 psi and new filter spec is 21.8 psi. Just realized, I stated that incorrectly as a range in my original post.

Thanks for that info. I did see the PF63E but was hoping for more info about it or the TSB. I guess, technically, the Ultra is still in spec by .5 PSI. Not that that would make anyone comfortable, but I guess that's how Fram can still recommend it?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by oil_film_movies

Now lower the temperature to a typical winter morning +10F and, yes, you'll bypass often, especially with a restrictive paper filter like a PF64/63E that GM says is the cat's meow.

I have to think that the AC Delco filters are relatively pretty flow restrictive for GM to make their bypass valve setting so high. I went back and read Jim Allen's sticky thread at the top of this forum which has delta-p measurements across various oil filters during cold starts and high engine RPM with cold oil, and he did see some delta-p go pretty high under some conditions ... well above the 20+ PSI range for a short time.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by oil_film_movies

Very true. User 'webfors' on these forums, on his '17 ATS (GM 2.0L turbo) had a flimsy paper PF64 get a rip in it, not good. Makes you wonder if the PF64 is really built that well. Engines may not blow up due to a rip-tear in the media like this, and the GM warranty dept. knows this, but nobody likes a hole in their oil fiter media, right? Extra wear maybe.

GM also had more than a few Vette engines lunch on the original filter, right in front of journalists. Now, that may not have been the ordinary AC Delco ecore, either, but it doesn't exactly fill one with confidence. GM tells us to not use aftermarket filters and hints at warranty peril, yet their own filters can't get a Vette through a test drive?

 

[irv]

Originally Posted by Garak

Originally Posted by oil_film_movies

Very true. User 'webfors' on these forums, on his '17 ATS (GM 2.0L turbo) had a flimsy paper PF64 get a rip in it, not good. Makes you wonder if the PF64 is really built that well. Engines may not blow up due to a rip-tear in the media like this, and the GM warranty dept. knows this, but nobody likes a hole in their oil fiter media, right? Extra wear maybe.

GM also had more than a few Vette engines lunch on the original filter, right in front of journalists. Now, that may not have been the ordinary AC Delco ecore, either, but it doesn't exactly fill one with confidence. GM tells us to not use aftermarket filters and hints at warranty peril, yet their own filters can't get a Vette through a test drive?

Was the oil filter the conclusive cause of these engine failures? I did a quick search but was only able to find this article. https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2...ne-fails-this-time-in-journalists-hands/ That had to be pretty embarrassing for GM.

 

[irv]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

Originally Posted by oil_film_movies

Now lower the temperature to a typical winter morning +10F and, yes, you'll bypass often, especially with a restrictive paper filter like a PF64/63E that GM says is the cat's meow.

I have to think that the AC Delco filters are relatively pretty flow restrictive for GM to make their bypass valve setting so high. I went back and read Jim Allen's sticky thread at the top of this forum which has delta-p measurements across various oil filters during cold starts and high engine RPM with cold oil, and he did see some delta-p go pretty high under some conditions ... well above the 20+ PSI range for a short time.

Well above is concerning. I didn't read the article but did he state the actual number above the 20 that it reached?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by irv

Was the oil filter the conclusive cause of these engine failures? I did a quick search but was only able to find this article. https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2...ne-fails-this-time-in-journalists-hands/ That had to be pretty embarrassing for GM.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/12...ces-engine-failure-after-only-891-miles/ Earlier this year, Car and Driver experienced engine failure on their long-term C7 Corvette Stingray, caused by metal shavings breaking loose in the oil filter. Then, not long after, the C7 Corvette Chevrolet had given them for their Lightning Lap test also broke down due to "contaminated oil" in the engine.

 

[irv]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

Originally Posted by irv

Was the oil filter the conclusive cause of these engine failures? I did a quick search but was only able to find this article. https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2...ne-fails-this-time-in-journalists-hands/ That had to be pretty embarrassing for GM.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/12...ces-engine-failure-after-only-891-miles/ Earlier this year, Car and Driver experienced engine failure on their long-term C7 Corvette Stingray, caused by metal shavings breaking loose in the oil filter. Then, not long after, the C7 Corvette Chevrolet had given them for their Lightning Lap test also broke down due to "contaminated oil" in the engine.

Ouch! Thanks for the link/info.

 

[Garak]

Yes, Z found the ones I was thinking of. C&D failures were the ones I read about most, and that was said by them to be oil filtration/contamination. Generally speaking, this is one thing that bothers me. AC, when I was younger, was a solidly built, economically priced filter. I find it highly obnoxious that we should ever have to worry about filter build quality, particularly from a major label.

 

[irv]

Originally Posted by Garak

Yes, Z found the ones I was thinking of. C&D failures were the ones I read about most, and that was said by them to be oil filtration/contamination. Generally speaking, this is one thing that bothers me. AC, when I was younger, was a solidly built, economically priced filter. I find it highly obnoxious that we should ever have to worry about filter build quality, particularly from a major label.

I agree, I ran them for years without worry myself, but like most things nowadays, with businesses being sold/bought out, all about profit, etc, I guess it would be naive of us to think any manu will always put out a quality product. Thankfully there are sites like this to help us learn/realize that not all things remain the same.

 

[Garak]

I remember in the day when the AC Delcos for my LTD were like around $2 a copy from Walmart, with a nitrile ADBV, which was the cheapest ADBV filter I could find in the day, with the FL-1A being closer to $7 or more at the time.

 

[wdn]

The Wix oil filter for your 2018 Impala with the V-6 engine is part # WL10255. It indeed has the higher 22 PSI bypass valve and the 350 PSI burst pressure needed for your engine. Wix specifically engineered this filter for the newer GM engine.

 

[carviewsonic]

"The Wix oil filter for your 2018 Impala with the V-6 engine is part # WL10255" Thanks for that, I have made note of it now. I don't know much about Wix filters, but I think they're decent. I don't like the ACDelco filters, if the few videos and forum threads I came across were accurate.