Interesting they are making improvements to the Ultras, even minor as the spin ons are already crazy over kill. Thanks for adding the information about the other holding capacity. Looks like they are almost tiered perfect where the extra guard holds about 33% as much as the Ultra and the tough guard holds about 50% as much
Fram Ultra holding capacity information here
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Originally Posted By: Motorking
Good morning BITOG'ers
While I have no plans to publish the capacity of every single FRAM filter part number or style, here is the deal.
1. Oil flow does not drop until the filter is nearly completely full. If your leaving it on that long, you are either using the wrong filter or too much time between OCI's, or your engine is a poorly maintained sludgebucket. You can monitor this if you have a high quality accurate analog oil pressure gauge. Check pressure when filter is new idling, make a note, check again monthly. When the warm engine idle oil pressure starts to drop, the filter is full or close to it.
2. Most all decently maintained modern fuel injected engines with a properly functioning pcv put LESS THAN 1 gram per thousand miles of dirt in the filter.
3. In the PH8a size, the standard orange can of delight holds 11-12 grams, the only reason this filter cannot go 10k miles is the nitrile rubber ADBV (silicone coming in 2017 and EG will be rated to OE recommended change intervals!) The TG8a holds 16-17 grams,The XG8a holds 29-32 (these are averages based on testing). All of these filters are overkill for the change interval on the box regardless of the can size.
The XG with minor improvements will be updated with advertising to 24k between changes (coming late 2017).
None of this means anything without doing the following- Using the best quality oil THAT MEETS OE specifications, checking and adding oil as needed during the life cycle of the OCI. As always, I welcome your questions but is best to contact my work email directly for the fastest response.
Sounds crazy! I know a lot of BIGOT'ers are running the Ultra out past 15K, but 24K . . . wow! I'm excited to hear what changes are being made. I doubt it will be anything in terms of construction, as I don't think there are any improvements to be made, aside from perhaps making the can a little bit thicker. Perhaps this means the media will get even better! I'll be looking forward to reading about them when they debut.
Good morning BITOG'ers
While I have no plans to publish the capacity of every single FRAM filter part number or style, here is the deal.
1. Oil flow does not drop until the filter is nearly completely full. If your leaving it on that long, you are either using the wrong filter or too much time between OCI's, or your engine is a poorly maintained sludgebucket. You can monitor this if you have a high quality accurate analog oil pressure gauge. Check pressure when filter is new idling, make a note, check again monthly. When the warm engine idle oil pressure starts to drop, the filter is full or close to it.
2. Most all decently maintained modern fuel injected engines with a properly functioning pcv put LESS THAN 1 gram per thousand miles of dirt in the filter.
3. In the PH8a size, the standard orange can of delight holds 11-12 grams, the only reason this filter cannot go 10k miles is the nitrile rubber ADBV (silicone coming in 2017 and EG will be rated to OE recommended change intervals!) The TG8a holds 16-17 grams,The XG8a holds 29-32 (these are averages based on testing). All of these filters are overkill for the change interval on the box regardless of the can size.
The XG with minor improvements will be updated with advertising to 24k between changes (coming late 2017).
None of this means anything without doing the following- Using the best quality oil THAT MEETS OE specifications, checking and adding oil as needed during the life cycle of the OCI. As always, I welcome your questions but is best to contact my work email directly for the fastest response.
Sounds crazy! I know a lot of BIGOT'ers are running the Ultra out past 15K, but 24K . . . wow! I'm excited to hear what changes are being made. I doubt it will be anything in terms of construction, as I don't think there are any improvements to be made, aside from perhaps making the can a little bit thicker. Perhaps this means the media will get even better! I'll be looking forward to reading about them when they debut.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I've often wondered how much a filter would hold. Just how is it weighed or measured?
It's determined by the media. Different types of media hold different amounts, and then you have the total surface area as well.
This is why it's funny when people count pleats because even if you have tons of pleats if it's cheap cellulose it won't hold as much as blended media.
They have to use expensive equipment to test under ISO 16889 and they measure the amount of "dirt" put in the stream and the amount after the filter can be measured too.
There's some YouTube videos on this I think
I've often wondered how much a filter would hold. Just how is it weighed or measured?
It's determined by the media. Different types of media hold different amounts, and then you have the total surface area as well.
This is why it's funny when people count pleats because even if you have tons of pleats if it's cheap cellulose it won't hold as much as blended media.
They have to use expensive equipment to test under ISO 16889 and they measure the amount of "dirt" put in the stream and the amount after the filter can be measured too.
There's some YouTube videos on this I think
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Well how do you weight it?
I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for or if I can explain it well but we as regular people can't test capacity, it's done by laboratory equipment that does particle counting.
This article might help some
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29114/dirt-holding-capacity
Well how do you weight it?
I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for or if I can explain it well but we as regular people can't test capacity, it's done by laboratory equipment that does particle counting.
This article might help some
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29114/dirt-holding-capacity
A picture is worth 10,000 words, or is it miles. How many grams in this one after 4k?
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr..._G5#Post3354608
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr..._G5#Post3354608
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
This is why it's funny when people count pleats because even if you have tons of pleats if it's cheap cellulose it won't hold as much as blended media.
What's funny about counting pleats? It's just used for comparative reasons. You know like cellulose vs cellulose and blends vs blends. I usually measure the media to get the actual media area, so in the end it does not matter.
This is why it's funny when people count pleats because even if you have tons of pleats if it's cheap cellulose it won't hold as much as blended media.
What's funny about counting pleats? It's just used for comparative reasons. You know like cellulose vs cellulose and blends vs blends. I usually measure the media to get the actual media area, so in the end it does not matter.
Originally Posted By: BigD1
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
This is why it's funny when people count pleats because even if you have tons of pleats if it's cheap cellulose it won't hold as much as blended media.
What's funny about counting pleats? It's just used for comparative reasons. You know like cellulose vs cellulose and blends vs blends. I usually measure the media to get the actual media area, so in the end it does not matter.
There's just too many variations of the media even between cellulose vs cellulose to make any sort of comparison based on pleat count. It gets even crazier as they blend varying amounts of glass fibers into the filters.
I understand it's interesting to compare things but we need apples to apples comparisons to make any decisions.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
This is why it's funny when people count pleats because even if you have tons of pleats if it's cheap cellulose it won't hold as much as blended media.
What's funny about counting pleats? It's just used for comparative reasons. You know like cellulose vs cellulose and blends vs blends. I usually measure the media to get the actual media area, so in the end it does not matter.
There's just too many variations of the media even between cellulose vs cellulose to make any sort of comparison based on pleat count. It gets even crazier as they blend varying amounts of glass fibers into the filters.
I understand it's interesting to compare things but we need apples to apples comparisons to make any decisions.
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
... I've not run the EG much pasted 5k, but never had an issue with ADBV stiffness. Makes me wonder how long it'll really last.
That depends on the temperature of your oil, among other variables.
... I've not run the EG much pasted 5k, but never had an issue with ADBV stiffness. Makes me wonder how long it'll really last.
That depends on the temperature of your oil, among other variables.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I've often wondered how much a filter would hold. Just how is it weighed or measured?
From the Fram Proving Grounds
Other info on the Fram web site FAQ's indicates this test is terminated when the filter differential pressure reaches the bypass valve opening pressure (sensible)
It would appear a weighed amount of test dust is added to the test stand circulating oil. If the circulating oil is also weighed before the test dust is added, then again after the test is terminated, the difference between the sum of test oil plus dust at start minus the mixed test dust and oil at end would equal dirt retained by the filter tested.
This may not be the exact method specified in the ISO 4548-12 protocol but it makes sense to me.
I've often wondered how much a filter would hold. Just how is it weighed or measured?
From the Fram Proving Grounds
Other info on the Fram web site FAQ's indicates this test is terminated when the filter differential pressure reaches the bypass valve opening pressure (sensible)
It would appear a weighed amount of test dust is added to the test stand circulating oil. If the circulating oil is also weighed before the test dust is added, then again after the test is terminated, the difference between the sum of test oil plus dust at start minus the mixed test dust and oil at end would equal dirt retained by the filter tested.
This may not be the exact method specified in the ISO 4548-12 protocol but it makes sense to me.
^^^ That Fram video is talking about air filters and their test method.
In the oil filter test, I'd think they weight the oil filter full of clean oil before the test, and then again after the test completes to determine how many grams of dust has been caught to cause the bypass valve to start opening.
In the oil filter test, I'd think they weight the oil filter full of clean oil before the test, and then again after the test completes to determine how many grams of dust has been caught to cause the bypass valve to start opening.
Here's the right video
The Fram Proving Grounds web site now just redirects to the main Fram web page, I copied the wrong link earlier.
If you think the filter is weighed before & after, what about the portions of the test stand the circulating slurry passes through (tubing, circulation pump, etc.)? Do you think all those pieces are also weighed before and after?
I think a more sensible approavh would be to use the density of the slurry and the fixed volume of these components including filter to account for the slurry filling them.
But I'll concede if you can post up what the ISO 4548-12 protocol actually specifies what you think. I don't have a copy.
The Fram Proving Grounds web site now just redirects to the main Fram web page, I copied the wrong link earlier.
If you think the filter is weighed before & after, what about the portions of the test stand the circulating slurry passes through (tubing, circulation pump, etc.)? Do you think all those pieces are also weighed before and after?
I think a more sensible approavh would be to use the density of the slurry and the fixed volume of these components including filter to account for the slurry filling them.
But I'll concede if you can post up what the ISO 4548-12 protocol actually specifies what you think. I don't have a copy.
They use ISO 16889 for capacity testing. They have a particle counter before and after the filter to determine capacity
More bad news for the "a larger filter doesn't do anything for you" crowd.
That XG8 will hold nearly 3 times the dirt of some of the smaller filters listed. Seems like the hot ticket for long OCI'S.
That XG8 will hold nearly 3 times the dirt of some of the smaller filters listed. Seems like the hot ticket for long OCI'S.
Originally Posted By: Motorking
Good morning BITOG'ers
While I have no plans to publish the capacity of every single FRAM filter part number or style, here is the deal.
1. Oil flow does not drop until the filter is nearly completely full. If your leaving it on that long, you are either using the wrong filter or too much time between OCI's, or your engine is a poorly maintained sludgebucket. You can monitor this if you have a high quality accurate analog oil pressure gauge. Check pressure when filter is new idling, make a note, check again monthly. When the warm engine idle oil pressure starts to drop, the filter is full or close to it.
2. Most all decently maintained modern fuel injected engines with a properly functioning pcv put LESS THAN 1 gram per thousand miles of dirt in the filter.
3. In the PH8a size, the standard orange can of delight holds 11-12 grams, the only reason this filter cannot go 10k miles is the nitrile rubber ADBV (silicone coming in 2017 and EG will be rated to OE recommended change intervals!) The TG8a holds 16-17 grams,The XG8a holds 29-32 (these are averages based on testing). All of these filters are overkill for the change interval on the box regardless of the can size.
The XG with minor improvements will be updated with advertising to 24k between changes (coming late 2017).
None of this means anything without doing the following- Using the best quality oil THAT MEETS OE specifications, checking and adding oil as needed during the life cycle of the OCI. As always, I welcome your questions but is best to contact my work email directly for the fastest response.
Jay,
As always thank you for your time to answer questions on this forum. If the E.G. gets a silicone adbv and will be up to 10k, will the TG then take the place of 15k when the ultra goes to 24k?
Good morning BITOG'ers
While I have no plans to publish the capacity of every single FRAM filter part number or style, here is the deal.
1. Oil flow does not drop until the filter is nearly completely full. If your leaving it on that long, you are either using the wrong filter or too much time between OCI's, or your engine is a poorly maintained sludgebucket. You can monitor this if you have a high quality accurate analog oil pressure gauge. Check pressure when filter is new idling, make a note, check again monthly. When the warm engine idle oil pressure starts to drop, the filter is full or close to it.
2. Most all decently maintained modern fuel injected engines with a properly functioning pcv put LESS THAN 1 gram per thousand miles of dirt in the filter.
3. In the PH8a size, the standard orange can of delight holds 11-12 grams, the only reason this filter cannot go 10k miles is the nitrile rubber ADBV (silicone coming in 2017 and EG will be rated to OE recommended change intervals!) The TG8a holds 16-17 grams,The XG8a holds 29-32 (these are averages based on testing). All of these filters are overkill for the change interval on the box regardless of the can size.
The XG with minor improvements will be updated with advertising to 24k between changes (coming late 2017).
None of this means anything without doing the following- Using the best quality oil THAT MEETS OE specifications, checking and adding oil as needed during the life cycle of the OCI. As always, I welcome your questions but is best to contact my work email directly for the fastest response.
Jay,
As always thank you for your time to answer questions on this forum. If the E.G. gets a silicone adbv and will be up to 10k, will the TG then take the place of 15k when the ultra goes to 24k?
Publish the efficiency rating of filters using 1 gram of test dust per equivalent 1000 miles. The value stated by an expert. That would be at least 20 hours of running the 1 gram through the machine. That would be passing the 1 gram of dirt about 2,400 times through the filter at low gpm and 5 qt sump. Since this is on a machine in a room, footnote the results that this does not include rapid sludge formation possibilities as in real car, cold weather use. Then let's compare filters bottom lines.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Publish the efficiency rating of filters using 1 gram of test dust per equivalent 1000 miles. The value stated by an expert. That would be at least 20 hours of running the 1 gram through the machine. That would be passing the 1 gram of dirt about 2,400 times through the filter at low gpm and 5 qt sump. Since this is on a machine in a room, footnote the results that this does not include rapid sludge formation possibilities as in real car, cold weather use. Then let's compare filters bottom lines.
Maybe you should start your own filter test laboratory, and redefine how oil filters are tested. But I doubt it's going to do any more good than the current ISO test for filter performance comparison.
Publish the efficiency rating of filters using 1 gram of test dust per equivalent 1000 miles. The value stated by an expert. That would be at least 20 hours of running the 1 gram through the machine. That would be passing the 1 gram of dirt about 2,400 times through the filter at low gpm and 5 qt sump. Since this is on a machine in a room, footnote the results that this does not include rapid sludge formation possibilities as in real car, cold weather use. Then let's compare filters bottom lines.
Maybe you should start your own filter test laboratory, and redefine how oil filters are tested. But I doubt it's going to do any more good than the current ISO test for filter performance comparison.
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