Fram uses that material on its low line product but not its best....why....its cheaper to use it that way,they wouldnt make the gross profit per sale if they upgraded the materials.Cost...pure and simple.They have no other reasoning behind it.If its so great,then why does not anyone else make theirs that way? Wix? Purolator?
Fram explains cardbard endcaps on their filters.
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Originally Posted By: Falken
I watched that video a long time ago, it was posted here in the past I believe.
How about this? Look closely at the shoddy construction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRRgw4B7R-I
FRAM only makes one good oil filter that is spin-on. The ULTRA.
But it is your money, your vehicle. I just don't see how the FRAM at the beginning filters anything at all.
Huh. Well, that video certainly appear to show a defective Fram filter. And, gosh, if they're bad enough that that guy had to wee-wee on one, then I definitely better avoid them!
There have been a couple of posts here of defective Purolators as well. But Purolators have metal end caps, so I guess they're automatically "better." Last time I went to Walmart, the Purolators were about 30 cents cheaper than the Frams, so they're probably a better deal like you guys are saying.
I watched that video a long time ago, it was posted here in the past I believe.
How about this? Look closely at the shoddy construction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRRgw4B7R-I
FRAM only makes one good oil filter that is spin-on. The ULTRA.
But it is your money, your vehicle. I just don't see how the FRAM at the beginning filters anything at all.
Huh. Well, that video certainly appear to show a defective Fram filter. And, gosh, if they're bad enough that that guy had to wee-wee on one, then I definitely better avoid them!
There have been a couple of posts here of defective Purolators as well. But Purolators have metal end caps, so I guess they're automatically "better." Last time I went to Walmart, the Purolators were about 30 cents cheaper than the Frams, so they're probably a better deal like you guys are saying.
IDK, maybe I've softened on the whole FRAM issue - there was a time when I'd sooner run Texas Gold SAE 30 in my crankcase than an OCOD, but perhaps times have changed. I'm still convinced that there are better filters for the money - but from what I can tell, over the past decade FRAM has made an effort to improve the construction of their product and eliminate quality control problems, at least to the point where it is decent enough to run for 3,000 mile OCIs; but I wouldn't put any faith in that fiber encap beyond mile 3,001.
Besides, there are worse filters on the market now. I've seen some E-cores with very thin media that honestly just scare the [censored] out of me - and I've seen some private-labeled filters with media so porous I'm not sure they would qualify as 'rock catchers'.
Maybe I've gone soft - or maybe I'm just tired of Fram-bashing threads.
Besides, there are worse filters on the market now. I've seen some E-cores with very thin media that honestly just scare the [censored] out of me - and I've seen some private-labeled filters with media so porous I'm not sure they would qualify as 'rock catchers'.
Maybe I've gone soft - or maybe I'm just tired of Fram-bashing threads.
The only purpose of the endcap is to hold the media in place. The Fram endcaps do that with ease. The #1 bash on Fram is the endcaps and it is simply ignorance as to their purpose and function. In fact the base end Fram end cap is octoganal which allows better oil flow, so there's actually a benefit there. I've never personally glued any endcaps onto a filter but Fram says fiber endcaps bond better to fiber media than metal ones do, and that makes complete sense based on other projects I have done.
Now if you want to bash Fram for price/value on the OCOD you've got a legit gripe. If you want to complain about a lack of media on the OCOD you've got a legit gripe. If you want to complain about nitrile ADBV's that often work poorly you've got a gripe there too. But the hysteria about the endcaps is just ignorant stupidity and is by the far #1 bashing "proof" posted all over the net. As pointed out repeatedly in this thread, some filter designs use no physical endcap AT ALL.
As far as the Ultra having metal endcaps, it has been repeatedly posted as to why. Fram has to use metal endcaps to cup and hold the synthetic media and wire backing because it will not bond well to the fiber endcaps. So Fram uses the best bond on the OCOD and gets roasted for it. Then they use the best bond on their premium filter and get roasted again for it. Makes perfect sense to me...
Now if you want to bash Fram for price/value on the OCOD you've got a legit gripe. If you want to complain about a lack of media on the OCOD you've got a legit gripe. If you want to complain about nitrile ADBV's that often work poorly you've got a gripe there too. But the hysteria about the endcaps is just ignorant stupidity and is by the far #1 bashing "proof" posted all over the net. As pointed out repeatedly in this thread, some filter designs use no physical endcap AT ALL.
As far as the Ultra having metal endcaps, it has been repeatedly posted as to why. Fram has to use metal endcaps to cup and hold the synthetic media and wire backing because it will not bond well to the fiber endcaps. So Fram uses the best bond on the OCOD and gets roasted for it. Then they use the best bond on their premium filter and get roasted again for it. Makes perfect sense to me...
I have used the ocod when I was younger and broke. Never suffered an engine failure for it. Fast forward twenty years too today, I don't use them. I may put in an ultra Fram too see how it goes, they look really good and people here seem too back that up. For most of my vehicles the oem is cheaper. Does it do better? I have no idea, I'm not a scientist, I just use oem for piece of mind and most of the time the oem is cheaper or fifty cents more.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
But their premium Ultra filter has steel endcaps.
How do they spin that?
Ding Ding Ding. Thats it!
But their premium Ultra filter has steel endcaps.
How do they spin that?
Ding Ding Ding. Thats it!
dnewton3
Staff member
The fact that Fram puts metal end caps on their premium filter may be as much an attribute to satisfy market demand, as opposed to a true "need" for metal. So, why does Fram use a metal end-cap in the Ultra? Because people want it to be there for the price they pay. The expectation of presence is based upon desire, and perhaps not necessity. It migth actually be a bit of both; it may be of some benefit, and it also has sales value in percevied customer attraction. Most of us don't work for Fram, so it's only speculation on our part. What Fram has in the video is certainly plauible.
As for the fiber material ... How about a little challenge for those who have disdain for fiber end caps in general and the OCOD in particular:
Please post DIRECT evidence of engine damage specifically attributed to the failure of a fiber end-cap to seal against the media, and/or stay intact for a normal OCI, or otherwise not successfully perform the task it's assigned.
Now, when I say "direct evidence" I'm talking about well documented, preferrably with photos, and true tear-down analysis of both the filter and resultant damage. I don't want to hear any third-hand story line from some other web-based wanna-be site where a pretend engineer spouts off about "best" filter practices, or touts how "more is better" when it comes to FCIs, etc. I don't want to hear about theory; if you want to convice me, then I need PROOF. If you cannot SPECIFICALLY point to DIRECT evidence of failing fiber end-caps and how they were direct causation of engine damage, then you're falling short of what I consider "proof". I realize that's a high bar to set; you'll have to leave hype and rhetoric at the door and stand soley on facts and data.
If you don't like fiber end-caps, that's fine. But please separate out the emotional bias from the factual basis, and show me tangible reasons not to trust fiber in this application. Yes - I'm going to be "that guy" that picks apart the so-called evidence until I'm totally assured that mythology is laid bare and only the truth spills onto the floor.
As for the fiber material ... How about a little challenge for those who have disdain for fiber end caps in general and the OCOD in particular:
Please post DIRECT evidence of engine damage specifically attributed to the failure of a fiber end-cap to seal against the media, and/or stay intact for a normal OCI, or otherwise not successfully perform the task it's assigned.
Now, when I say "direct evidence" I'm talking about well documented, preferrably with photos, and true tear-down analysis of both the filter and resultant damage. I don't want to hear any third-hand story line from some other web-based wanna-be site where a pretend engineer spouts off about "best" filter practices, or touts how "more is better" when it comes to FCIs, etc. I don't want to hear about theory; if you want to convice me, then I need PROOF. If you cannot SPECIFICALLY point to DIRECT evidence of failing fiber end-caps and how they were direct causation of engine damage, then you're falling short of what I consider "proof". I realize that's a high bar to set; you'll have to leave hype and rhetoric at the door and stand soley on facts and data.
If you don't like fiber end-caps, that's fine. But please separate out the emotional bias from the factual basis, and show me tangible reasons not to trust fiber in this application. Yes - I'm going to be "that guy" that picks apart the so-called evidence until I'm totally assured that mythology is laid bare and only the truth spills onto the floor.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
The only purpose of the endcap is to hold the media in place.
No, it also provides support for and the sealing surface for the ADBV and by-pass valve. There have been many pictures posted here of these filters with the end caps distorted to the point were the function of the by-pass or ADBV is clearly compromised. Yes the media was still firmly bonded, but what good is that when oil is freely by-passing?
Ed
The only purpose of the endcap is to hold the media in place.
No, it also provides support for and the sealing surface for the ADBV and by-pass valve. There have been many pictures posted here of these filters with the end caps distorted to the point were the function of the by-pass or ADBV is clearly compromised. Yes the media was still firmly bonded, but what good is that when oil is freely by-passing?
Ed
I have seen your comments on that before, we will have to agree to disagree on that point I don't come to the same conclusion from those pictures that you do. We have discussed it before.
Originally Posted By: Eosyn
Found this video by Fram that pretty much tells us the material of the end discs (caps) in oil filters doesn't matter. If it wasn't for my education from BITOG here, I may have actually believe what this Fram Rep says. Not sure if this has been posted before, but here ya go.
Video from Fram about their fiber end discs (caps)
Guess Fram got sick of people putting them down due to the fiber endcaps and decided to set us straight in this video
I hear the guy in the video is related to Joseff Goebbels
Found this video by Fram that pretty much tells us the material of the end discs (caps) in oil filters doesn't matter. If it wasn't for my education from BITOG here, I may have actually believe what this Fram Rep says. Not sure if this has been posted before, but here ya go.
Video from Fram about their fiber end discs (caps)
Guess Fram got sick of people putting them down due to the fiber endcaps and decided to set us straight in this video
I hear the guy in the video is related to Joseff Goebbels
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Fram uses that material on its low line product but not its best....why....its cheaper to use it that way,they wouldnt make the gross profit per sale if they upgraded the materials.Cost...pure and simple.They have no other reasoning behind it.If its so great,then why does not anyone else make theirs that way? Wix? Purolator?
Fram can and does make a good filter, it's just NOT the OCOD.
Fram uses that material on its low line product but not its best....why....its cheaper to use it that way,they wouldnt make the gross profit per sale if they upgraded the materials.Cost...pure and simple.They have no other reasoning behind it.If its so great,then why does not anyone else make theirs that way? Wix? Purolator?
Fram can and does make a good filter, it's just NOT the OCOD.
I've cut open Toyota filters from I4s and V6s in my "fleet", and no matter who made them, there are always endcaps at each end. . This includes a Chinese copy of a 14477 which was actually very well made.
Originally Posted By: PhillyJoe
The other day, someone pulled up in their car and said they were lost and could I help them out getting to their destination. I told him he was going the wrong way, he should turn around and the road he wants is about a mile back. He thanked me for my advice and continued to drive in the wrong direction.
Sometimes I feel the same way about how people buy oil filters.
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make him think!
The other day, someone pulled up in their car and said they were lost and could I help them out getting to their destination. I told him he was going the wrong way, he should turn around and the road he wants is about a mile back. He thanked me for my advice and continued to drive in the wrong direction.
Sometimes I feel the same way about how people buy oil filters.
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make him think!
Originally Posted By: Falken
A_Harman makes an excellent point.
Fram ULTRA has metal end caps.
So the case is closed.
Fram is full of [censored].
I must agree. I remember when cars were described in a positive fashion as having "road hugging weight". On THAT advertising "assumption", Caddys ought to have been winners at Indy.
A_Harman makes an excellent point.
Fram ULTRA has metal end caps.
So the case is closed.
Fram is full of [censored].
I must agree. I remember when cars were described in a positive fashion as having "road hugging weight". On THAT advertising "assumption", Caddys ought to have been winners at Indy.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
The fact that Fram puts metal end caps on their premium filter may be as much an attribute to satisfy market demand, as opposed to a true "need" for metal. So, why does Fram use a metal end-cap in the Ultra? Because people want it to be there for the price they pay. The expectation of presence is based upon desire, and perhaps not necessity. It migth actually be a bit of both; it may be of some benefit, and it also has sales value in percevied customer attraction. Most of us don't work for Fram, so it's only speculation on our part. What Fram has in the video is certainly plauible.
No, I think they explained in the video that the reason metal end caps are used on the Ultra is because the synthetic media/wire backing surface wouldn't mate up well with a fiber endcap. I don't think it has anything to do with consumer expectation.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Please post DIRECT evidence of engine damage specifically attributed to the failure of a fiber end-cap to seal against the media, and/or stay intact for a normal OCI, or otherwise not successfully perform the task it's assigned.
Well how about first defining a 'normal' OCI, and 'the task to which the fiber end cap is assigned'? After all, I would expect you of all people to argue that fiber end caps vs metal end caps isn't about which is 'better', but about which lasts longer in relation to cost. Or is it not possible for fiber end caps to be over-utilized?
I'll stand behind the premise of my earlier statement if not the numbers themselves; I've come to the conclusion that oil filters contrstructed with low-cost materials like fiber endcaps and nylon centertubes are probably fine for 'normal' OCIs (whatever that means), but for 'extended' OCIs or 'severe' duty conditions (whatever that means), an oil filter of superior construction should be selected.
The fact that Fram puts metal end caps on their premium filter may be as much an attribute to satisfy market demand, as opposed to a true "need" for metal. So, why does Fram use a metal end-cap in the Ultra? Because people want it to be there for the price they pay. The expectation of presence is based upon desire, and perhaps not necessity. It migth actually be a bit of both; it may be of some benefit, and it also has sales value in percevied customer attraction. Most of us don't work for Fram, so it's only speculation on our part. What Fram has in the video is certainly plauible.
No, I think they explained in the video that the reason metal end caps are used on the Ultra is because the synthetic media/wire backing surface wouldn't mate up well with a fiber endcap. I don't think it has anything to do with consumer expectation.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Please post DIRECT evidence of engine damage specifically attributed to the failure of a fiber end-cap to seal against the media, and/or stay intact for a normal OCI, or otherwise not successfully perform the task it's assigned.
Well how about first defining a 'normal' OCI, and 'the task to which the fiber end cap is assigned'? After all, I would expect you of all people to argue that fiber end caps vs metal end caps isn't about which is 'better', but about which lasts longer in relation to cost. Or is it not possible for fiber end caps to be over-utilized?
I'll stand behind the premise of my earlier statement if not the numbers themselves; I've come to the conclusion that oil filters contrstructed with low-cost materials like fiber endcaps and nylon centertubes are probably fine for 'normal' OCIs (whatever that means), but for 'extended' OCIs or 'severe' duty conditions (whatever that means), an oil filter of superior construction should be selected.
They may be OK but almost no one else is using them and on their better filters they use steel.
I think the issue isn't the fiber end caps as much as it is the value for the money, the OCOD is just NOT a good value when compared to competitors out there, and they give you metal end caps as quality as good or better than FRAM for LESS MONEY!
The ignorance spewing forth in this joke of a thread makes me pity some of the posters. Reminds me of certain American Idol tryouts. First:
THE ONLY REASON THE ULTRA HAS METAL ENDCAPS IS BECAUSE IT'S A WIRE-BACKED SYNTHETIC MEDIA.
PERIOD!
As to endcaps, the fiber is just one method among many and one that Fram has used since the '60s. According to several sources at Fram, so the costs per unit to them are not significantly less than a factory that's tooled up for metal endcaps, though commodity prices makes those very fluid costs for any company. Sometimes steel is very high and the fiber used is low. Sometimes the reverse is true. It evens out in the long run. In any case, the costs to change over would be astronomical and would require a significant reason to do so. Certainly more than the uniformed, infantile wailings of hyper-critical non-customers.
Since the sight of a failed Fram endcaps seems to inspire so much erotic arousal among some of you, I thought I would include something to cool you off. Yes, metal endcaps fail too. Sometimes right out of the box, as this one did. I have personally see two others.
Also, to show you the difference between "cardboard" and a fiber endcap...
Finally, to give you one example of a fiber endcap filter not made by Fram....
THE ONLY REASON THE ULTRA HAS METAL ENDCAPS IS BECAUSE IT'S A WIRE-BACKED SYNTHETIC MEDIA.
PERIOD!
As to endcaps, the fiber is just one method among many and one that Fram has used since the '60s. According to several sources at Fram, so the costs per unit to them are not significantly less than a factory that's tooled up for metal endcaps, though commodity prices makes those very fluid costs for any company. Sometimes steel is very high and the fiber used is low. Sometimes the reverse is true. It evens out in the long run. In any case, the costs to change over would be astronomical and would require a significant reason to do so. Certainly more than the uniformed, infantile wailings of hyper-critical non-customers.
Since the sight of a failed Fram endcaps seems to inspire so much erotic arousal among some of you, I thought I would include something to cool you off. Yes, metal endcaps fail too. Sometimes right out of the box, as this one did. I have personally see two others.
Also, to show you the difference between "cardboard" and a fiber endcap...
Finally, to give you one example of a fiber endcap filter not made by Fram....
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