Fram Endurance Flashlight Test in canister

Yes, I understood that at the time and don't disagree with any of it (then or now). Note that I dropped the argument in those earlier posts as I understood and agreed with your point and didn't want to take it further.

My = if a company has had problems in the past, the probability of a new bad example indicating a larger problem is higher.

You = Bayesian doesn't work here because there is a high likelihood that when people did the flashlight test, they didn't get the leaf spring lined up with the "set," which means that there may not have been a real failure.

Me (in my head) = Yeah, that could be true, so I'll let it go.
The bottom line, regardless of how you want to define it, is that any filter brand can and most likely will at some point have some level of quality issues from some factor. Most issues are caused by manufacturing sloppiness ... few from actual design problems. One example of a design problem is when eCore center tubes first came out. They were being designed with big wide open windows, which if combined with non-uniform and tight pleat spacing could blow the media out right through an eCore window.

Just because one brand has a problem, or has had a problem doesn't mean they can't rectify it and get back on a good path. BUT, once a major problem has risen and lasted for a long time, like the Purolator filters tearing media, it takes a long time to get the reputation back after the problem has been fixed. I mean there are still Fram haters here that base their Fram hate bias on what happened with Fram filters 30 years ago, lol. So, IMO a "Bayesian argument" in the case of oil filters can't hold much weight since oil filter company ownership and operations, and where they are manufactured changes all the time which makes it at total crap-shoot on how they are going to be designed and manufactured in terms of performance and quality. Oil filters are truly a Whack-a Mole game that needs to constantly be monitored for changes.

True, but my only point was that, if you're buying in person, this is at least a defect one can determine before purchase (as opposed to media tears or leakages which cannot be determined in advance).

So, not trying to pin the louver problem on Purolator exclusively, just saying that it is one of the arguments against using Purolator but it seems like a problem that can be mitigated.
As I've mentioned in dozens of threads over the years, all louvers need to be inspected. Some people have been caught off-guard on that because they don't do it, then see some examples posted here, then look at their new filters in the garage and see badly and choked down louvers.

The ill-formed louvers issue is a potential problem on all filters that use them. I've pointed that out many times. So anyone who's touting that stay away from Purolator because of closed louvers has some other agenda. Some people say they will never use any filter with louvers, regardless of the brand. ALL filters with closed off louvers should be avoided on a case to case basis, because all filters that use louvers can have the problem depending on what production line and/or what day they were made. You seem to have a trigger and somehow think people are just picking on Purolators for some reason. I really don't see that much these days. More like stay away from Fram and Champ Lab made filters because of ruffled leaf springs that can leak dirty oil constantly.

I disagree with that-- there are many people who have many, many times posted "stay away from M+H filters" as a complete and absolute blanket statement.
More than just Purolators are M+H made ... so based on some of the issues with other M+H branded filters they might have a point, lol. ;)

Yeah, I'm following the efficiency discussion as well, and it's an issue. But that problem seems to be centered around the Boss. I've not seen anyone question the red or blue cans-- they seem to be fine. So, I'm not really talking about that in my posts here.
I'd have to compare the Purolator website efficiency claim for the other models vs their Spec Sheet to see what's up there. Could be all the models referenced on the website don't agree with the M+H Spec Sheets. Why? ... that's the answer we strive to find.

I could be wrong, but I'm starting to believe that people today who say "stay away from Purolator because it's made by M+H which should be avoided entirely" are making those statements ~95% based on (real) past problems that seem to have little evidence of being a problem today-- the definition of "inertia."

BTW, all these arguments (I believe) apply to Wix as well, assuming you don't buy them online and can inspect the louvers before purchase.
Like I said, the best thing to do is look at what's been posted about problems of any filter here in the moving window of the last 6-months and decided for yourself what's going on. People who are still basing their views on things that happened 10, 20 or 30 years ago with a filter brand simply do not understand just how dynamic the oil filter world is, and don't spend enough time reading and staying current with discussions in this forum.
 
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Yep First Brands and M+H seem to be the problems. Which is anything made by Fram, Champ, Purolator, and Wix.

Would you say that is the case for the filters those companies make with automaker names on them, too, or only in the aftermarket? I thought I understood from this thread that many thing it's not even all of M+H, but only the ones manufactured by their USA subsidiaries.
Curious as to how far laterally you apply this concern.
 
Would you say that is the case for the filters those companies make with automaker names on them, too, or only in the aftermarket? I thought I understood from this thread that many thing it's not even all of M+H, but only the ones manufactured by their USA subsidiaries.
Curious as to how far laterally you apply this concern.
I believe you’re correct. Others have mentioned M+H OEM and euro made filters are very nice.
 
Tks.

Do you have concern over, say, Honda's branded filters? Those at least used to be Fram-made. Don't know whether that relationship continued after the Fram sale.
 
Like I said, the best thing to do is look at what' been posted about problems of any filter here in the moving window of the last 6-months and decided for yourself what's going on.

Yep-- that's exactly what I'm doing here. But rather than deciding for myself, I'm throwing the question out to the group:

"It seems to me that the six-month moving window is indicating that perhaps Purolator is moving beyond its checkered past-- what do y'all think?"




You seem to have a trigger and somehow think people are just picking on Purolators for some reason.

Not at all-- don't care a thing about Purolator! Per my other threads, I'm about to do a big stocking up on Microguard Selects as soon as my O'Reilly rebates come it.



People who are still basing their views on things that happened 10, 20 or 30 years ago with a filter brand simply do not understand just how dynamic the oil filter world is, and don't spend enough time reading and staying current with discussions in this forum.

True, and I'm just asking if there is reason now to at least begin considering whether we are mistakenly basing our current views on Purolator (and other M+H filters) based on problems that are now years in the past.

Perhaps the answer is no, but I thought it was a reasonable question based on what I've observed in the six-month moving window you mentioned.
 
Yep-- that's exactly what I'm doing here. But rather than deciding for myself, I'm throwing the question out to the group:

"It seems to me that the six-month moving window is indicating that perhaps Purolator is moving beyond its checkered past-- what do y'all think?"
Everyone in the group will have some kind non-agreements to some level. There were people when Purolator media was tearing constantly who said it was "no big deal" ... viewpoints on stuff like this is all over the spectrum. And lately, many don't care about a leaky leaf spring ... I say, whatever floats their boat and makes them feel good about their decisions is cool. I base my choices on my own decisions and conclusions of info and data posted and discussed.

True, and I'm just asking if there is reason now to at least begin considering whether we are mistakenly basing our current views on Purolator (and other M+H filters) based on problems that are now years in the past.

Perhaps the answer is no, but I thought it was a reasonable question based on what I've observed in the six-month moving window you mentioned.
Again, not too many Purolators are C&P to have a good cross-section of what's currently going on, However that short list of torn media filters I posted earlier in this thread were mainly M+H made I believe. Since you stocked up on MircoGard Selects and don't care about Purolator anymore then might want to focus on something else, lol ...j/k. Yeah, I've bought MicroGard Selects and CarQuest Premiums lately, and still have a few OG Ultras and an OG Titanium left .... so I won't be caring too much about other filters for a while. But, I will always be watching on what's going on in the oil filter Whack-a-Mole world. 😄
 
Tks.

Do you have concern over, say, Honda's branded filters? Those at least used to be Fram-made. Don't know whether that relationship continued after the Fram sale.
I think they may still be Fram in the US? Japan made filters are always well regarded. My only complaint would be no published efficiencies.

I’m currently running this combo on my daughter’s Acura.

CF7C4F36-C6C2-43A7-9FAE-4E8FA56A5C48.webp
 
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I think they may still be Fram in the US?
I think they are too. IIRC, the Honda filters made by Fram shown in some C&Ps seem to have thicker fiber end caps than the Fram versions ... I'd have to go do some digging to see if I recall that correctly. If so, that could be a Honda spec thing to Fram.
 
Everyone in the group will have some kind non-agreements to some level.

Guaranteed!

Since you stocked up on MircoGard Selects and don't care about Purolator anymore then might want to focus on something else, lol ...j/k.

Yeah, with the ~5-year supply of good MGS's that I should soon have, none of this affects me directly, and I have very little brand loyalty.

However, cutting up my final Wix and Pure One cans and seeing how nice they looked caused me to have this "maybe they're not bad anymore?" insight about them that I thought I'd throw out here.


But, I will always be watching on what's going on in the oil filter Whack-a-Mole world. 😄

I'll be following as well!

Thanks!
 
I think they are too. IIRC, the Honda filters made by Fram shown in some C&Ps seem to have thicker fiber end caps than the Fram versions ... I'd have to go do some digging to see if I recall that correctly. If so, that could be a Honda spec thing to Fram.

Speaking of Fram differences, I was recently at Walmart and I looked at the PH7317's they had on the shelf.

About 50/50 between the ones with the Ecore + yellow dot Champ print on the top, and the metal core with holes + solid black Fram print on the sides.

Are there any major differences in the performance of these two variants? Any difference in leaking? Anything else?
 
Speaking of Fram differences, I was recently at Walmart and I looked at the PH7317's they had on the shelf.

About 50/50 between the ones with the Ecore + yellow dot Champ print on the top, and the metal core with holes + solid black Fram print on the sides.

Are there any major differences in the performance of these two variants? Any difference in leaking? Anything else?
Sounds like the PHs with the dot matrix and eCore are Champ Labs made. There have been a few shown in C&Ps. Those might have metal end caps, don't recall. Only Fram could say if they meet the same PH efficiency specs ... probably so if they are using the same PH media.
 
Sounds like the PHs with the dot matrix and eCore are Champ Labs made. There have been a few shown in C&Ps. Those might have metal end caps, don't recall. Only Fram could say if they meet the same PH efficiency specs ... probably so if they are using the same PH media.

I guess I'm assuming efficiency is ok-- I'm wondering if there are any differences in the problem areas of leakage, tears, or anything like that.

I don't know about the endcaps, but I'm thinking the probability is probably higher of getting fiber (which I would prefer) if one got the non eCore version.

Thanks for the info!
 
Speaking of Fram differences, I was recently at Walmart and I looked at the PH7317's they had on the shelf.

About 50/50 between the ones with the Ecore + yellow dot Champ print on the top, and the metal core with holes + solid black Fram print on the sides.

Are there any major differences in the performance of these two variants? Any difference in leaking? Anything else?
Yep, FB has been using Champ Labs design and made filters and labeling them Fram for a while now. Seem to be done in a willy nilly manner. The Champ Labs made "Fram" EG look very much like the AAP "Fram" Drive filters. Only thing missing from the latter is the sure grip, even can color the same. As for efficiency of the Champ Labs made EG, my "speculation" would be it's what CL publishes for the majority of their filters. Lastly the CL made "Fram" will use the now thoroughly discussed metal to metal bypass piece seal area design.

Edit. Linked is a thread from July (24) with c&p of the topic PH7317 Fram vs Champ Labs design as accurately noted previously.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/a-tale-of-two-fram-ph7317s.384650/
 
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Yep, FB has been using Champ Labs design and made filters and labeling them Fram for a while now. Seem to be done in a willy nilly manner. The Champ Labs made "Fram" EG look very much like the AAP "Fram" Drive filters. Only thing missing from the latter is the sure grip, even can color the same. As for efficiency of the Champ Labs made EG, my "speculation" would be it's what CL publishes for the majority of their filters. Lastly the CL made "Fram" will use the now thoroughly discussed metal to metal bypass piece seal area design.
Grabbed two XG10575’s at Walmart last April …
One had a soft seal on the spring - one did not …
 
For me personally to see Purolator off the naughty list would take a year(and a good amount) of defect free c&p’s with current date codes. My gut tells me M+H will continue to consolidate and stream line(cheapen) production like they’ve done with Wix. Same applies to First Brands filter brands at this point.

This also applies to defects for me. A year of defective(depending on severity) c&p’s to be put on the naughty list.

Like I’ve said in this and other threads, everyone has a different comfort level and definition of defects. It’s ok to run what your comfortable with. Heck Toyota’s and Honda’s have gone hundreds of thousands of miles on 50% efficiency filters.
 
For me personally to see Purolator off the naughty list would take a year(and a good amount) of defect free c&p’s with current date codes. My gut tells me M+H will continue to consolidate and stream line(cheapen) production like they’ve done with Wix. Same applies to First Brands filter brands at this point.

This also applies to defects for me. A year of defective(depending on severity) c&p’s to be put on the naughty list.

Like I’ve said in this and other threads, everyone has a different comfort level and definition of defects. It’s ok to run what your comfortable with. Heck Toyota’s and Honda’s have gone hundreds of thousands of miles on 50% efficiency filters.
I just bought a Purolator standard red filter for $5.99, $1 off the regular price. It has a silicone adbv, everything looks fine. I don’t like their black glue, they should use the tan glue like the Boss. I don’t see any cheapening, it’s better, but of course it now costs more.
 
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