Fram Endurance every other OCI vs Microgard Select every OCI on Hondas?

[Ronn]

No.

I’m saying BR tests aren’t lining up with official ISO testing. All 99%@20 micron filters should have the same results and they don’t. I don’t know why, do you?

Known identical filters aren’t testing the same. I don’t know why, do you?

Common sense would say BR’s results aren’t accurate or something else is going on.

As far as I can tell, the BR tests are the only “sophisticated “ attempts in independent bench filter tests performed to date on the Endurance and its “ clone” the Amsoil. In BOTH separate instances they performed at the TOP in comparing particle filtration in the 20-30 micron range against a host of leading brands. You can try and find faults in their testing, but I give them kudos for doing a reasonably good job where others “fear to tread”. There have been ZERO attempts by others to come even close to what they have done in terms of testing . You can cherry pick and criticize the results to your own liking….results are not perfect nor indisputable…..they’re not an ISO sanctioned lab… but unfortunately (or fortunately) it’s all we have. In this instance they have essentially tested this filter TWICE….given that Amsoil and Endurance been shown to be clones (Whip City Video).
Both times they were at the top of the list in filtration. Take it for what you will….even with a grain of salt if that’s your take.
I remain impressed, imperfections notwithstanding.

 

[DannyM]

TG and EG have fiber end caps which tend to seal very well with the leaf spring, ruffles or not. Combine that with ecore center tubes and they’re currently Frams least prone to problems filters.

how to know if you are getting the fiber or metal end caps without cutting ?? .... I have seen both on the Frams with e-core.

 

[Ronn]

ISO 4548-12 gives the manufacturer the option of testing just the media or the filter with or without the bypass. Which of the three methods did FRAM use to arrive at their numbers?

Ed

One thing for sure….BR tests were the “Whole Enchilada “

 

[Ronn]

how to know if you are getting the fiber or metal end caps without cutting ?? .... I have seen both on the Frams with e-core.

1) there’s no evidence that the fiber end caps “seal” sufficiently to overcome the faulty spring plate 2) No evidence e-core tube flows better or is superior to louver tube.

 

[ZeeOSix]

As far as I can tell, the BR tests are the only “sophisticated “ attempts in independent bench filter tests performed to date on the Endurance and its “ clone” the Amsoil. In BOTH separate instances they performed at the TOP in comparing particle filtration in the 20-30 micron range against a host of leading brands. You can try and find faults in their testing, but I give them kudos for doing a reasonably good job where others “fear to tread”. There have been ZERO attempts by others to come even close to what they have done in terms of testing .

What doesn't make sense in the BR testing is where the Boss ranks. Based on Ascents official ISO 4548-12 testing ( THIS LINK ) and M+H official spec sheet (shows efficiency as 99% >46 microns), showing that the Boss has much lower efficiency than the Ultra, Endurance and RP.

 

[ZeeOSix]

1) there’s no evidence that the fiber end caps “seal” sufficiently to overcome the faulty spring plate

Well there is ... you can see a full impression of where the leaf spring contacts and seals on the fiber end cap.

2) No evidence e-core tube flows better or is superior to louver tube.

An Ecore center tube will have less dP vs flow because it has more open flow area - that's how fluid dynamics work. But the difference between an Ecore center tube and a center tube with well formed louvers or lots of holes isn't going to make any real difference in the overall dP vs flow curve of the entire oil filter.

 

[Mechanician]

I agree 100%. This is exactly why I did not disturb mine I tested here. I took extreme care not to touch the leaf spring before testing. I even went to the extreme of testing one while still in the can.

Thread 'Fram Endurance Flashlight Test in canister'

Sep 4, 2024

Tested on a new Fram Endurance FE7317 purchased at Walmart.

The question was “Does the Fram Endrance still have a gap in the bypass spring while under pressure?”

The answer is yes on this one. Also has a gap outside of the canister as Whip City and Sayjac have already found. I also carefully put some drops of oil on the gap areas to check every 10 minutes. It only took seconds for the oil to leak through with gravity.

• Glenda W.
• Replies: 1,162
• Forum: Engine Oil Filters

• 
• 

If an ISO, or any other test is/was performed - did they use one with a ruffled valve assembly like you clearly show, or a smooth surfaced one like the one I had? There's no telling.

 

[ZeeOSix]

If an ISO, or any other test is/was performed - did they use one with a ruffled valve assembly like you clearly show, or a smooth surfaced one like the one I had? There's no telling.

That ISO 4548-12 test was probably done long time ago when the filter first came out. Engineering needs to verify the final design by testing before releasing it for sale to the consumer. We've seen older filters with much smoother leaf springs, so seems as time went on the ruffled leaf spring issue has appeared.

On an oil filter with no leaks and rated at 99% @ 20u, it wouldn't take much of an internal lead to drop that efficiency down below that. The more efficient a filter is, the more impact an internal leak will have on the efficiency.

 

[Glenda W.]

If an ISO, or any other test is/was performed - did they use one with a ruffled valve assembly like you clearly show, or a smooth surfaced one like the one I had? There's no telling.

No way to know for sure. Same issue with BR tests without a pic. I’d imagine they had ISO testing done pre production for advertising purposes.

I had a perfect Titanium in 2024 pass so it’s kinda a crap shoot.

 

[Glenda W.]

how to know if you are getting the fiber or metal end caps without cutting ?? .... I have seen both on the Frams with e-core.

True

 

[Glenda W.]

As far as I can tell, the BR tests are the only “sophisticated “ attempts in independent bench filter tests performed to date on the Endurance and its “ clone” the Amsoil. In BOTH separate instances they performed at the TOP in comparing particle filtration in the 20-30 micron range against a host of leading brands. You can try and find faults in their testing, but I give them kudos for doing a reasonably good job where others “fear to tread”. There have been ZERO attempts by others to come even close to what they have done in terms of testing . You can cherry pick and criticize the results to your own liking….results are not perfect nor indisputable…..they’re not an ISO sanctioned lab… but unfortunately (or fortunately) it’s all we have. In this instance they have essentially tested this filter TWICE….given that Amsoil and Endurance been shown to be clones (Whip City Video).
Both times they were at the top of the list in filtration. Take it for what you will….even with a grain of salt if that’s your take.
I remain impressed, imperfections notwithstanding.

If you’re happy thats all that matters, there’s a couple other people here that feel the same. Many others like myself aren’t comfortable.

 

[Ronn]

The more efficient a filter is, the more impact an internal leak will have on the efficiency.

Interesting interpretation there
If I may, I’ll take it a little further …..
Firstly, depends on magnitude of the “leak”…I know you’ve attempted to quantify it in a “model”…Albeit still “theoretical “ in nature. I still don’t find it convincing, but still commendable .
Second, in spite of any impact a leak has relative to “maximum filter potential”, the ultimate resultant compromised filter performance for any given leak size will still be superior to that of inferior rated filters with same identical leak (or even without it).
In a nutshell, even though a given leak may have “greater efficiency impact” on a highly rated filter, the resultant filtration can still remain high due to the “reserve” of its initial potential.

Warren Buffet can lose 10% of his money and still be the wealthiest man in the world!

 

[ZeeOSix]

This pic^^^^ is PERFECT!!!

I've posted it for you around 3 times now in the last 2 days, lol. It finally registered? Saved to your phone now?

It’s called a discussion. We can all learn something. What is said on this forum is truly insignificant in the scheme of all the millions who who never heard of a bypass leak or even know what a bypass valve is. I’m not trying to “convert” or convince anyone here. I fully respect contrary opinions. However, I must admit it’s entertaining to engage in the “back and forth”.
…I have no allegiance to this filter or any other for that matter. For now, I’m committed based on what is known (and not known). That could change abruptly at any time and I’d never look back.
Let me paraphrase this…
“I ALWAYS CHOOSE THE BEST FILTER
DEFECTS AND ALL”

Like said, you only have to convince yourself to use any product or not. Data and facts are king to make intelligent decisions about products.

 

[Ronn]

Lol
Seen it ages ago . It’s a classic! Congrats!

 

[Ronn]

As I previously stated
This discussion and forum only reflects a microcosm of opinions in this vast world we live in. Here’s a sample of “other opinions” on the subject.
No he didn’t use a flashlight..

 

[Ronn]

Like said, you only have to convince yourself to use any product or not. Data and facts are king to make intelligent decisions about products.

“Data and Facts”
Yes , We can lay claim to those…

Caveat …..
They’re subject to interpretation…bummer
Interpret this:
*FRAM Group testing of average filter efficiency of FE8A, FE3387A and FE4967 or equivalent FRAM TG or EG models under ISO 4548-12 for particles greater than 20 microns”

Interpret this:

You say “Tomatoes” I say “Tomatoes”

 

[ZeeOSix]

“Data and Facts”
Yes , We can lay claim to those…

Caveat …..
They’re subject to interpretation…bummer
Interpret this:
*FRAM Group testing of average filter efficiency of FE8A, FE3387A and FE4967 or equivalent FRAM TG or EG models under ISO 4548-12 for particles greater than 20 microns”

Fram efficiency data is from an official ISO 4548-12 test. Same with the efficiency data for the Boss, as it's from an official M+H spec sheet referencing ISO 4548-12. Not from a home-made test rig in a garage.

Interpret this:

You say “Tomatoes” I say “Tomatoes”

Data not from an official ISO 4548-12 test (BR says also points that out in their videos), and no verification that their data correlates with the efficiency ranking using the ISO 4548-12 ranking. That's why there is a big disconnect between the BR "efficiency" ranking and the ISO 4548-12 ranking. And if some or all of the Champ Lab built filter with a stamped leaf spring have some level of internal leakage, then it confuses the test data even more.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Study this. Impact of a 15% internal leakage on a 99% @ 20u filter (left) and a 99% @ 40u filter (right).

 

[Glenda W.]

As I previously stated
This discussion and forum only reflects a microcosm of opinions in this vast world we live in. Here’s a sample of “other opinions” on the subject.
No he didn’t use a flashlight..
View attachment 288057

I really appreciate people that do C&P’s and tests for the good of the community. Especially those that spend their own money. But this guy admits to not doing a flashlight test and posts no pics of his filters or leaf springs. Prime Guard?? I mean it’s a fine filter but hardly spoken about here. Did he mean Premium Guard? This forum is by far the most detailed in filter inspections. Also the most C&P’s done anywhere online.

He is correct in saying things could change in a month or two.

 

[4WD]

I really appreciate people that do C&P’s and tests for the good of the community. Especially those that spend their own money. But this guy admits to not doing a flashlight test and posts no pics of his filters or leaf springs. Prime Guard?? I mean it’s a fine filter but hardly spoken about here. Did he mean Premium Guard? This forum is by far the most detailed in filter inspections. Also the most C&P’s done anywhere online.

He is correct in saying things could change in a month or two.

Is PrimeG more of a jobber filter ? - son got a change at a quick lube - and the other two we did at home …