ford-teases-a-new-cable-capable-of-charging-evs-in-5-minutes

[UncleDave]

So the thing about the EV math, is you need to pay upfront for a lot of battery capacity. If you have an EV, at today's utility rate, the cost per mile on EV is going to be more depreciation than the ICE car, yet the energy cost is going to be lower for the ICE car. Also once the battery wears down to a very low range there is not much incentive to keep the car and replace the battery.

So the easiest solution is really to lease and swap the battery. Without a corporate-owned battery it is very hard to use the battery to its full potential and it is very hard not to feel attached to your own $15k investment. Nobody wants an old battery when they swap their own out, but if it is a corporate-owned battery you can swap it with no emotional attachment. You can also have a spare at home charging if you wish, while you drive your car, or go to a "gas station" for a quick swap. Imagine if you can plug in a 50lb battery and let it charge when you go to work, actually let you charge 3 50lb batteries all over your house as soon as price is low (say 7am to 10am, because everyone will charge their EV at night and nobody wants to charge the during morning commute). You don't need 240V charging if you can get all your 120V used across your house (say you have 3 separate 15A circuit breakers), 24 hours a day. You also don't need 240V if you can have a few spare in the house or in the trunk. You also don't need them to last 10 years if you can easily swap them in and out, just upgrade your battery and keep the car.

See, all the problem we think we have is just because we are not thinking outside the box, as soon as we have user swappable battery we don't need them to last 300 miles or 240V charging (actually the higher current is just as important as 240V, since P=IV, and what helps in the US is 240V are designed for high current appliance and most of them are at least 30A instead of 15A), and as soon as we have battery leasing we don't need them to last 10 years.

This is a good idea but I don't see if working this way for a bunch of reasons.

Who pays for the swap stations? Since each brands architecture is unique there can be no universal swap stations.
Who buys the packs for swapping? Packs aren't standardized - how many are you going to buy?
How do you let people know what you can swap? Sorry Im out of those batteries today
How do you make your money back on packs?
High capacity connectors are typically are only good for a very low number of i/o cycles all current batts would require serious re-architecting.
3-150LB batteries isnt getting you very far - a current model 3 pack weighs about 1200lb.
The price per KWH is falling dramatically as the both the capacity AND recharge time is improving.

I just cant see past the issues and Ive got a pretty open mind.

 

[Pew]

To deliver 75kWh in 5 minutes requires a 1.5MW connection.

How's the math done on that? I'm not electrically savvy in any way but I'd love to learn how the power is broken down and distributed.

The only way to do that is.... traffic jam..... not even $7 a gallon is going to do it.

In the greatness of the City of Chicago: yearly vehicle stickers, paid parking, restrictions on many streets so you can so you can charge vehicle owners tow and impound fees, and have horrible drivers so locals are more willing to use public transportation (which is actually good in Chicago.)

Urbanization is not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about Incentivizing alternate forms of transport to reduce overall number of car trips. Dedicated bus lanes, sidewalks where people actually want to be, safe bikelanes, etc. all very cheap compared to our ever growing expenditures on roadways that will never meet induced demand.

Pre-pandemic, the train was used a lot for suburbians to commute to and from work in the city. The folks who worked or students in the City used that train to and from home - nobody really used it for anything else like going to the grocery store. Post-pandemic, traffic has doubled and travel time to drive to the city has doubled. If I was to drive to work pre-pandemic, it would only take me a tad bit over an hour during rush hour; now it's at least 2 hours. All the train lines are express lines so it's an hour train ride and the commuter bus to downtown is allowed to use the shoulder when there is traffic yet ridership on the train and bus is still down by a lot - you might have a whole train car to yourself.

No outer suburbian dweller uses the public transportation to go from home to a stop that is half-way down the route nor is public transportation even a thought for anybody who has a vehicle here. Even a car is the preferred means of transportation in the inner-city suburbs because of freedom and ease of use. Bikes and walking are really only feasible for very short trips in good weather but then every other vehicle on the asphalt weighs ten times you do and they're all trying to kill you. When you factor in other things like groceries, carrying bags, kids, violence, etc, any form of non-personal vehicle transportation starts becoming a burden.

 

[PandaBear]

This is a good idea but I don't see if working this way for a bunch of reasons.

Who pays for the swap stations? Since each brands architecture is unique there can be no universal swap stations.
Who buys the packs for swapping? Packs aren't standardized - how many are you going to buy?
How do you let people know what you can swap? Sorry Im out of those batteries today
How do you make your money back on packs?
High capacity connectors are typically are only good for a very low number of i/o cycles all current batts would require serious re-architecting.
3-150LB batteries isnt getting you very far - a current model 3 pack weighs about 1200lb.
The price per KWH is falling dramatically as the both the capacity AND recharge time is improving.

Very good questions, I don't have all the answer but here's what I can think of:

1) You probably don't NEED 8 50lb battery to make up 1200lb if you swap, I would imagine the ideal would be 600lb of baseline battery and then a trunk mount attachment that let you attach 2 50lb battery, so you can still charge if you want on the car and you can swap the 50lb modules when you are on the road, won't get you far for sure but you probably only need a minor boost just like people going on a trip with small spare gas can. I do see DIY being essential (to save labor) and therefore I see 50lb as the limit for DIY. Maybe we can do better in the future but I'm just being paranoid.

2) I would imagine there will be companies who finance the swappable pack and charge you based on time + power draw. If you return a pack with less charge or hold them longer then they would charge you more, either way I can see it being a very good stable investment to Wall Street when standardized. Most likely gas station / truck stop / convenient stores / etc would like to participate and get a cut with those Blue Rhino tank like kiosk outside.

3) Standardization would be tricky, yes you will need to standardize to limited size or else you will not be able to know what can you swap and where can you go.

4) High cap connector would likely need similar safety and tech that charging connector today uses. I think it is doable, but may focus more on higher voltage and lower current. I don't know how NIO did it in China but they do have pack leasing that you can swap a few times a month on the house, so the tech is there for sure (but cost not sure).

5) The thing about leasing pack or swapping pack, is that they reduce the range anxiety. You can buy something that has 20% more than what you need in range and then carry extra packs to boost the range, and therefore you either can afford a more expensive pack or you can "wait it out" on battery development for future price drop. It is like, if you buy a computer today, knowing that you can upgrade later, you can buy a computer with less storage and then add a USB drive later. If you cannot add a USB drive later you will be forced to buy a much bigger drive with your computer today, and you may be more reluctant to buy the computer today. Does that make sense?

One thing I saw is that NIO is trying to do battery lease / swap with CATL at the moment. CATL (the battery pack manufacturer) would own and operate the leasing program, charging about the equivalent of gasoline cost per month of their typical customers (say $400USD, a lot in China due to tax and oil import), but they can swap a few times a month and electricity is free. If they buy the vehicle without a pack, it would be about $10k cheaper than the gasoline equivlaent, but if they want to buy the pack they will have to charge on their own and they will be paying for the battery pack themselves. In the end, the battery lease is a better deal (they can buy a pack in the end if they think swapping is not as good as they think). The technology is there, standardization "may" be there (CATL is basically a monopoly in Chinese EV scene, easy for them to come up with some standard), financing is there (high gasoline price and high tax, incentive for EV to succeed). I think in a few years we will see if it can work in other countries as well.

 

[sk_pete]

lightning can have 30000amps, and 20-300 coulomb(charge) ; but fraction of second
2700mah aa nimh is not deadly, holds ~10000 coulomb charge. (2,7 amps per hour)
so if you want to speed up things, it gets dangerous.

if i think correctly, 50kWh=180MJ=180MW.s
180MW.s to 5 minutes (300s) = 600kW

 

[TacoFergie]

You make excellent points. Your use case is not a fit for a Tesla. Perhaps one day...

I would venture to say 70% of people would likely fit into the category where an EV isn't right in the current times. Maybe more. The majority of issues with EV's is initial cost. Especially with our rate current inflation and wages not increasing at the same rate for "average" people. Many families cannot afford the current EV options besides the Leaf which is basically just reserved for in town in all reality due to the lack of ragne, plus it looks goofy. The other major issues are people in rural areas, areas with lack of charging infrastructure, extreme temperature climates and lack of repair accessibility. Granted charging and repair facilities/options will grow naturally over time. I think overall vehicle longevity and ability to repair (either by the owner or independent shops) is the biggest hurdle for many that are on a forum like this that take those things very seriously. No one here is the that wants a throw away vehicle so to speak.

The used market for EV's is an odd subject as well. Vehicle price is still higher than many want to spend and battery degradation is something to consider, though a lot of people don't consider battery life as many look at Tesla's as a status symbol (more than most would like to admit). EV's are still in their infancy and they will only get better. I think it will take a while for a 300+ mile range EV to be available at a comparable cost to an average ICE car like a Camry or Accord. Also how long are the current EV's going to be on the road compared to an ICE?? I see many 20yr old plus cars everyday still on the road.

There are many good points made by many members on here. Obviously we are debating mute points as likely none of us have any control over legislation, infrastructure, implementation or manufacturing aspects to my knowledge.

@PandaBear is really being a good devils advocate so to speak. I like the idea of swappable batteries. In reality with the way current EV's are made it wouldn't be feasible to swap a battery quickly or efficiently. The current widely used EV chassis/structure across every platform uses the battery as a major part of the vehicles structural integrity, weight distribution and to keep the center of gravity low. The overall mindset of how EV's are built would have to be changed quite a bit to accommodate battery swaps. The thought also comes up about where a quickly replaceable battery would be placed that wouldn't affect convenience greatly.
-If it was placed in the trunk or frunk, then luggage or cargo would likely have to be removed to swap.
-Under the back seat is no better as passengers would have to get out or removing child seats which is always a great time! lol
-I think a cool option would be to have battery sections slide out from the rocker panel areas on tracks. But the locking mechanism would likely have to meet stringent regulations and I don't know how that affect structural integrity for crash safety.

There are some interesting battery technologies that are being researched which would also help weight, energy density, life span, ambient temp range and environmental impact. Solid state batteries are very interesting in many aspects. Part of the reason Toyota uses NMiH primarily in their Hybrids is because they are affected less by temperature and cheaper to manufacture to help keep vehicle cost down even though they have obvious downsides.

I am not 100% against EV's. I love the innovation it brings to the table, it makes every bodies end product better in my view. I just believe that the emphasis being put on it by the gov and climate promotors is overboard. Just like every issue they cherry pick the info to make X look better than Y. There is no denying that neither option is "environmentally clean". It's even more of a whirl wind when discussing/comparing the total environmental impact of an EV vs ICE starting at the bare minerals>shipping>manufacturing>infrastructure>impact during vehicle operation>life span>end of life recycling and the impact of each of those components and construction equipment for each process and so on and so on. There are so many variables and truly unknowns to accurately calculate and quantify that one is better than the other. If someone tried, it would likely be out of date by the time they got done with the calculations! haha

So clearly we all know the answer is plug-in hybrids. Best of both worlds, no range anxiety, charge over night at your home, fill up with gas quickly when needed and impact on the environment from both sides equals out right? I'm just playing. But there are many great ideas discussed and really makes a person think a little deeper about it all.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I would venture to say 70% of people would likely fit into the category where an EV isn't right in the current times. Maybe more. The majority of issues with EV's is initial cost. Especially with our rate current inflation and wages not increasing at the same rate for "average" people. Many families cannot afford the current EV options besides the Leaf which is basically just reserved for in town in all reality due to the lack of ragne, plus it looks goofy. The other major issues are people in rural areas, areas with lack of charging infrastructure, extreme temperature climates and lack of repair accessibility. Granted charging and repair facilities/options will grow naturally over time. I think overall vehicle longevity and ability to repair (either by the owner or independent shops) is the biggest hurdle for many that are on a forum like this that take those things very seriously. No one here is the that wants a throw away vehicle so to speak.

The average American drives like 30 miles per day. Even on a slow charge that's about 6 hours of overnight charging. Or once a week at a SuperCharger. With more and more chargers being installed at condos, shopping centers, hospitals and at places of work, charging becomes less and less of an issue.

Tesla is working on the Model 2 or "Model Q", which is the $25K Tesla. This could be an ICE killer for many, especially with the high cost of gas, oil, maintenance, etc.

As you point out, EVs are not for everyone. But it is likely not quite what you think.

 

[PandaBear]

I would venture to say 70% of people would likely fit into the category where an EV isn't right in the current times. Maybe more. The majority of issues with EV's is initial cost. Especially with our rate current inflation and wages not increasing at the same rate for "average" people. Many families cannot afford the current EV options besides the Leaf which is basically just reserved for in town in all reality due to the lack of ragne, plus it looks goofy. The other major issues are people in rural areas, areas with lack of charging infrastructure, extreme temperature climates and lack of repair accessibility. Granted charging and repair facilities/options will grow naturally over time. I think overall vehicle longevity and ability to repair (either by the owner or independent shops) is the biggest hurdle for many that are on a forum like this that take those things very seriously. No one here is the that wants a throw away vehicle so to speak.

The used market for EV's is an odd subject as well. Vehicle price is still higher than many want to spend and battery degradation is something to consider, though a lot of people don't consider battery life as many look at Tesla's as a status symbol (more than most would like to admit). EV's are still in their infancy and they will only get better. I think it will take a while for a 300+ mile range EV to be available at a comparable cost to an average ICE car like a Camry or Accord. Also how long are the current EV's going to be on the road compared to an ICE?? I see many 20yr old plus cars everyday still on the road.

There are many good points made by many members on here. Obviously we are debating mute points as likely none of us have any control over legislation, infrastructure, implementation or manufacturing aspects to my knowledge.

Again, we won't get to 100% EV overnight and it shouldn't be an all or nothing approach to create EV. Nobody expect a $25k crewcab with towing capability and the comfort of a Camry, with 55mpg, etc. I do see EV being a small segment that works very well for some people, and I believe it will start outside of rural America, and eventually when technology matures trickle down to their beloved crewcab and pickup trucks.

Nobody expect today's battery to last 20 years, but they will last long enough to justify the cost of cheaper energy to drive per mile (electricity being cheaper than gasoline), and replacement cost to be cheaper eventually as we have seen in Prius. Everyone said hybrid was worse for environment and battery would be too expensive to replace, but it turns out ok and it became the most reliable car Toyota made (and probably the most reliable car you can buy in the US). I don't expect Tesla to fill that role, but I do expect Toyota to when they finally release one.

My ideal location for the battery swap setup would be about 150 miles of range that comes with the car, with the battery where today's EV (floor) for weight distribution and safety reason. Then with a dedicated location in the trunk to mount modules, with appropriate cooling (near AC) and would hopefully last about 100 miles per swap (say 2 modules to provide enough range and power output). Driver would probably pick up 6-pack of batteries with a home charged EV to start the trip, then when they run to 20% they start using those 6 pack of batteries 2 module at a time, when they are really low they pull over to swap another 2 modules, and when they use restroom break they swap those depleted modules at "gas station" with charged ones. When they are done with the trip they return the unused or partially used modules at the store and get a refund on the unused energy + the core deposit. I don't see how else we will not get bottleneck on swapping infrastructure, and I don't see how else can we use up cheap grid electricity without a bunch of small modules that can be charged ahead of time to carry on a road trip during major driving days (Thanksgiving in the US, stores started charging their packs between 1 week ahead and 1 week after).

 

[ZeeOSix]

In reality with the way current EV's are made it wouldn't be feasible to swap a battery quickly or efficiently. The current widely used EV chassis/structure across every platform uses the battery as a major part of the vehicles structural integrity, weight distribution and to keep the center of gravity low. The overall mindset of how EV's are built would have to be changed quite a bit to accommodate battery swaps.

Yes, for battery quick swaps to become a viable and common way to "recharge" an EV, the batteries should be a standardized size (or a small range of sizes), and that all EVs would have to be designed by the manufactuers to use those standardized batteries. IMO that's way down the line if it ever happens.

 

[UncleDave]

I would venture to say 70% of people would likely fit into the category where an EV isn't right in the current times. Maybe more. The majority of issues with EV's is initial cost. Especially with our rate current inflation and wages not increasing at the same rate for "average" people. Many families cannot afford the current EV options besides the Leaf which is basically just reserved for in town in all reality due to the lack of ragne, plus it looks goofy. The other major issues are people in rural areas, areas with lack of charging infrastructure, extreme temperature climates and lack of repair accessibility. Granted charging and repair facilities/options will grow naturally over time. I think overall vehicle longevity and ability to repair (either by the owner or independent shops) is the biggest hurdle for many that are on a forum like this that take those things very seriously. No one here is the that wants a throw away vehicle so to speak.

The data I've seen doesn't agree with that ratio.

GM did an exhaustive study prior to the Volts launch that showed 80% of the US commute population is 43 miles of less.

With more and more working from home the commute has likely lessened a bit.

With the Average US new Vehicle cost at nearly 50K EV's aren't exotic or out of line anymore.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/average-new-car-costs-price-increase/

 

[TacoFergie]

The average American drives like 30 miles per day. Even on a slow charge that's about 6 hours of overnight charging. Or once a week at a SuperCharger. With more and more chargers being installed at condos, shopping centers, hospitals and at places of work, charging becomes less and less of an issue.

Tesla is working on the Model 2 or "Model Q", which is the $25K Tesla. This could be an ICE killer for many, especially with the high cost of gas, oil, maintenance, etc.

As you point out, EVs are not for everyone. But it is likely not quite what you think.

I fully agree that 30 mile a day average use. But the other considerations are the random short road trips (say 150-200 miles) many make once every month or two. Not that the EV's aren't capable of that at all.

But weather affects SoC and charging rates heavily. Overnight in single digit Fahrenheit temps or colder can take 30+ miles of range off over night. The battery needs to warm up before accepting any charge. I've seen where some people drive it or pre-heat the interior to warm the battery but they are doing that over an hour or more to accept high charge rates. Short trips aren't sufficient to warm the battery. If it is not up to temp it takes 30+min before accepting a charge and once it does it is only a few KwH until it gets warmer. I've seen many say just to gain 100 miles it can take 4+hrs, even on a road trip which assumes the battery temp is pretty warm. This also changes how much it costs to charge since it is by the minute at charging stations.

Since many people don't have an insulated or temp controlled garage this is something that limits EV's in at least half the country. While the simple answer is to have an ICE vehicle in the family for those types of events where an EV may not be practical. The complicated answer is that single people often live in rented spaces where outside parking is the only option and charging isn't readily available at work or home and owning a 2nd vehicle is not feasible.

I've never looked into how much a level 2 home charger is but many older homes only have a 100A or 150A breaker box panel and they are usually close to full. Considering that people with older homes would likely have to upgrade there panel to add capacity for a level 2 charger that would only increase the cost of the car.

Again, EV's aren't for everyone. But many people in areas that have nice weather and good supporting infrastructure don't consider many points that don't concern them in their area. Not saying that you are one of those individuals, just that is reality.

Nobody expect today's battery to last 20 years, but they will last long enough to justify the cost of cheaper energy to drive per mile (electricity being cheaper than gasoline), and replacement cost to be cheaper eventually as we have seen in Prius. Everyone said hybrid was worse for environment and battery would be too expensive to replace, but it turns out ok and it became the most reliable car Toyota made (and probably the most reliable car you can buy in the US). I don't expect Tesla to fill that role, but I do expect Toyota to when they finally release one.

I am curious how much batteries will be once batteries reaching end of life become more common. The Prius batteries are fairly cheap as the battery technology is pretty simple and cheap to begin with compared to EV batteries.

 

[PandaBear]

I fully agree that 30 mile a day average use. But the other considerations are the random short road trips (say 150-200 miles) many make once every month or two. Not that the EV's aren't capable of that at all.

But weather affects SoC and charging rates heavily. Overnight in single digit Fahrenheit temps or colder can take 30+ miles of range off over night. The battery needs to warm up before accepting any charge. I've seen where some people drive it or pre-heat the interior to warm the battery but they are doing that over an hour or more to accept high charge rates. Short trips aren't sufficient to warm the battery. If it is not up to temp it takes 30+min before accepting a charge and once it does it is only a few KwH until it gets warmer. I've seen many say just to gain 100 miles it can take 4+hrs, even on a road trip which assumes the battery temp is pretty warm. This also changes how much it costs to charge since it is by the minute at charging stations.

Since many people don't have an insulated or temp controlled garage this is something that limits EV's in at least half the country. While the simple answer is to have an ICE vehicle in the family for those types of events where an EV may not be practical. The complicated answer is that single people often live in rented spaces where outside parking is the only option and charging isn't readily available at work or home and owning a 2nd vehicle is not feasible.

I've never looked into how much a level 2 home charger is but many older homes only have a 100A or 150A breaker box panel and they are usually close to full. Considering that people with older homes would likely have to upgrade there panel to add capacity for a level 2 charger that would only increase the cost of the car.

Again, EV's aren't for everyone. But many people in areas that have nice weather and good supporting infrastructure don't consider many points that don't concern them in their area. Not saying that you are one of those individuals, just that is reality.



I am curious how much batteries will be once batteries reaching end of life become more common. The Prius batteries are fairly cheap as the battery technology is pretty simple and cheap to begin with compared to EV batteries.

Agree that EV aren't for everyone just like hybrid aren't as well. I think we will continue to see this well into the future and we will have EVs and hybrid doing a lot of the daily commute and then we have gas and hybrid doing the long trip in most families. One thing I believe in is to follow the money (in fuel / energy cost vs purchase + battery replacement cost), another is fleets in private companies know best. We used to see a lot of pickup running around in fleet delivering stuff (pizza, auto parts) or security patrol, now most of them I see are Prius. I think EV will be around for the local fleets one day, charged in a yard at night, or doing occasional local patrol and delivery, just too expensive at the moment.

I don't know the answer to Lithium battery but from what I learned so far they should have "reduced capacity" and still safe to use for low capacity for quite a while (say going from 82miles when new to 50 miles after 10 years in a Leaf). I do think instead of replacing them many vehicles would be sold to lower income people needing just a short trip car to stores, 3rd world to do individual cell swapping, instead of salvaged for grid-tie project. I do see 3rd world + Chinese stuff + used EV battery turn into a rural solar installation though. 50miles may not be much on a car but enough of it should power a fridge, a ceiling fan, and a light pretty well at night. Maybe a washing machine and AC during the day too.

 

[TacoFergie]

The data I've seen doesn't agree with that ratio.

GM did an exhaustive study prior to the Volts launch that showed 80% of the US commute population is 43 miles of less.

With more and more working from home the commute has likely lessened a bit.

With the Average US new Vehicle cost at nearly 50K EV's aren't exotic or out of line anymore.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/average-new-car-costs-price-increase/

That is true that average vehicle prices have gone up. But the used car market is still very strong since many families can't afford a new car, even a $35k one. This is especially true in rural areas where wages are naturally lower because the cost of living is lower. In middle America where the average home is still around $150k-$200k, apartments are $700-$1100mo, a $50k+ vehicle is proportionally more than highly urbanized areas. A $50k vehicle in an area like CA isn't as big of a sticker shock where homes $500k+ or apartments are $1500-$2000mo.

I haven't read GM's study and don't doubt the info. I'm not trying say that EV's are absolutely horrible and people shouldn't buy them. I'm simply just pointing out things that people may not consider.

I think I would get frustrated if I tried to do a road trip with an EV. I usually visit family for the weekend about 200 miles away somewhat frequently throughout the year. In the summer I would likely make it no problem but would have to charge when I get there or go see the family and leave to charge somewhere for an 30-60min, then charge before leaving again since we usually stay with them. If it was winter (assuming 20-40% loss due to temp, not sure about snow tires) with winter tires I'd likely have to stop somewhere in the middle since my wife would not deal with trying to run the heat low to conserve battery. That would add at least 30min onto each leg of the trip or an hour total for the weekend, not including charging at the destination. I've seen some LR Model 3 owners claiming 150mi range in below 10F conditions. Time is whatever value you put on it. For me the additional time of charging and going out of my way to a charger would be very frustrating.

I know I'm beating up on EV's quite a bit. I still like them and think they would be a blast with how fast the can accelerate. Just being a devils advocate here.

 

[TacoFergie]

Agree that EV aren't for everyone just like hybrid aren't as well. I think we will continue to see this well into the future and we will have EVs and hybrid doing a lot of the daily commute and then we have gas and hybrid doing the long trip in most families. One thing I believe in is to follow the money (in fuel / energy cost vs purchase + battery replacement cost), another is fleets in private companies know best. We used to see a lot of pickup running around in fleet delivering stuff (pizza, auto parts) or security patrol, now most of them I see are Prius. I think EV will be around for the local fleets one day, charged in a yard at night, or doing occasional local patrol and delivery, just too expensive at the moment.

Hybrids are the happy medium in my eyes, especially as plug-in hybrids become more standard. To think that a Highlander Hybrid has a 600 mile range on a tank and most average 32-36mpg and many get 34mph @ 80mph is pretty amazing! That's a full size 3 row SUV getting that kind of mileage! My co-worker has a Camry Hybrid and drives like a madman going 85mph and still averages 41mpg! They do decrease in the winter, but I believe it's only about 2-4mpg depending on how long your wife runs the remote start...lol

I am very curious to see what the Hybrid Tundra will get for MPG!

 

[UncleDave]

That is true that average vehicle prices have gone up. But the used car market is still very strong since many families can't afford a new car, even a $35k one. This is especially true in rural areas where wages are naturally lower because the cost of living is lower. In middle America where the average home is still around $150k-$200k, apartments are $700-$1100mo, a $50k+ vehicle is proportionally more than highly urbanized areas. A $50k vehicle in an area like CA isn't as big of a sticker shock where homes $500k+ or apartments are $1500-$2000mo.
s the 80
I haven't read GM's study and don't doubt the info. I'm not trying say that EV's are absolutely horrible and people shouldn't buy them. I'm simply just pointing out things that people may not consider.

I think I would get frustrated if I tried to do a road trip with an EV. I usually visit family for the weekend about 200 miles away somewhat frequently throughout the year. In the summer I would likely make it no problem but would have to charge when I get there or go see the family and leave to charge somewhere for an 30-60min, then charge before leaving again since we usually stay with them. If it was winter (assuming 20-40% loss due to temp, not sure about snow tires) with winter tires I'd likely have to stop somewhere in the middle since my wife would not deal with trying to run the heat low to conserve battery. That would add at least 30min onto each leg of the trip or an hour total for the weekend, not including charging at the destination. I've seen some LR Model 3 owners claiming 150mi range in below 10F conditions. Time is whatever value you put on it. For me the additional time of charging and going out of my way to a charger would be very frustrating.

I know I'm beating up on EV's quite a bit. I still like them and think they would be a blast with how fast the can accelerate. Just being a devils advocate here.

Most tend to focus on the 20% long trip time vs the 80% daily use - and forget about the effect of fueling at home.

When you start with a full tank everyday you never need the dedicated weekly or even bi weekly trip to the gas station.

I spent about half an hour each weekend fueling two trucks that are used as cars mostly.
Thats 26 hours a year just on the fueling that I get back add that up over years and you are talking serious time.

Many people say they never stop or eat on road trips, just make a nascar style pit and pee - but if you combine these a day long trip take the same time a s a trip with an EV in most runs now with high speed charging.

When I look at what I have to add on long trips vs what I save every day the EV wins from a convenience perspective.

 

[JeffKeryk]

What @UncleDave is saying is, charging is not what people think. Range anxiety is real, and EVs are not for everyone, but for many people, is is very doable. And a whole lot better than you might think.

If and when Tesla builds the Model Q (I think that's what they are calling it now), the Corolla/Civic market will be in deep yogurt.
And Toyota/Honda knows it.

 

[TacoFergie]

Most tend to focus on the 20% long trip time vs the 80% daily use - and forget about the effect of fueling at home.

When you start with a full tank everyday you never need the dedicated weekly or even bi weekly trip to the gas station.

I spent about half an hour each weekend fueling two trucks that are used as cars mostly.
Thats 26 hours a year just on the fueling that I get back add that up over years and you are talking serious time.

Many people say they never stop or eat on road trips, just make a nascar style pit and pee - but if you combine these a day long trip take the same time a s a trip with an EV in most runs now with high speed charging.

When I look at what I have to add on long trips vs what I save every day the EV wins from a convenience perspective.

You make some good points. Not to mention the time for oil changes or other maintenance item that also add up throughout the year that doesn't need done on an EV. I think time would equal out in the end if you have a level 2 charger and an insulated garage.

I wouldn't classify my pitsops as nascar style. Haha But I don't loaf around either. It bugs me to no end when I have to go more than a mile off the interstate to get gas, food or potty break though.

What about the service centers if an owner has an issue? For me the closest one is about 100mi away (Omaha, NE and I live 100mi north of that), does Tesla pickup the car and give you a loaner at no cost if it's under warranty? That's something I think a lot of rural customers consider as well. I'm not even in a rural area and that's my situation.

 

[TacoFergie]

What @UncleDave is saying is, charging is not what people think. Range anxiety is real, and EVs are not for everyone, but for many people, is is very doable. And a whole lot better than you might think.

If and when Tesla builds the Model Q (I think that's what they are calling it now), the Corolla/Civic market will be in deep yogurt.
And Toyota/Honda knows it.

Wasn't the Model 3 supposed to be around $25k or $30k when it was debuted? I wonder what the range of the Q or 2 will be like? If it's over 200mi I think it will be a big hit at that price and even something I would potentially be interested in for a work car.

I just looked on their site and noticed they now a have a model X Plaid....holy cow!! I didn't know they were making the X in a Plaid version!

 

[bullwinkle]

so about 600A at 2300V single phase. I can just see Joe Homeowner doing medium voltage wiring.

Just need a CANDU in the back yard! The neighbors would love it!

 

[JeffKeryk]

Wasn't the Model 3 supposed to be around $25k or $30k when it was debuted? I wonder what the range of the Q or 2 will be like? If it's over 200mi I think it will be a big hit at that price and even something I would potentially be interested in for a work car.

I just looked on their site and noticed they now a have a model X Plaid....holy cow!! I didn't know they were making the X in a Plaid version!

Tesla originally offered a $35K Model 3, but I am not sure if they sold very many or any at all. Many pre-orders were for this car. I know one owner who held out and they sold him one, but ti was actually the higher range car.

Model Q range should be about 225 to 250 miles. This car is coming...

 

[TacoFergie]

Tesla originally offered a $35K Model 3, but I am not sure if they sold very many or any at all. Many pre-orders were for this car. I know one owner who held out and they sold him one, but ti was actually the higher range car.

Model Q range should be about 225 to 250 miles. This car is coming...

That Model Q looks pretty cool too, somewhat reminiscent of the Mazda 3 to me. If it does come at that price with that range and available with AWD I might be interested depending on what else is on the market at that time for a 3rd car.