Ford CEO traveled to China.

There used to be no shame in going to your local state college. Now this whole............OK deleted, don't get me started.

I never ever once hired a person on what school they graduated from. Yes we verified the degree fit, and that was that.
 
There used to be no shame in going to your local state college. Now this whole............OK deleted, don't get me started.

I never ever once hired a person on what school they graduated from. Yes we verified the degree fit, and that was that.

I stopped looking at schools when a USC Sophomore intern (paid) couldn't fill out an expense report properly.
I could care little what a guy did 10-15 -20 years ago, and care much more about what he can do now.
 
They have dumbed down public education for decades and now we are seeing the results. NASA can't even get those astronauts back from the space station.
I am not sure they dumbed down education; personally I am in favor of making teaching a higher paying profession.
One good thing about COVID around here is Community Colleges are tuition free. I 100% support that.
 
They can. Boeing cannot. Space-X would not be what it is without an educational base. So you have one company that does things well, and one that does not. It is not education in this case; it is decades of hubris, arrogance, and mistreatment of workers. Boeing could employ those same engineers.
The problem with higher education is not that simple.
1. Since 2008, states have greatly defunded higher education. Universities must be productive and cannot invest in programs where there is no interest. I run a department at university, and my university only gets 8% of its budget from the state. If I do not have enough students, I have to fire people. So, we must do things the community needs.
2. I cannot offer a program that won't employ students. So, if basic manufacturing is in China, people don't need those degrees. Tim Cook recently said that he could fill a few stadiums with engineers specializing in toling, etc., in China, but not the US. That is bcs. China dumps huge amounts of money into engineering programs and has an excess of engineers. Here, it is a very tight balance between available jobs and the number of engineers coming out of universities. People must take loans, and you won't take a loan for a job that does not exist.
3. If states pick up more tab, invest more in education, and therefore lower the cost for individuals, then you would have more people looking for degrees that might provide them jobs. They can take a chance. But, as long as the average student has to spend $40-60k on education in an average school, they will go for something that can secure them a job. Make education free like in China; we won't have issues producing engineers like on conveyor belt.
The reason Silicon Valley exists was the promise of high quality, low cost education. Costs are much higher than when I went, but even then the local companies would pay for at least a portion of college costs. After I graduated from San Jose State at the tender age of 40, Novellus (now Lam Research) offered to send me, actually urged me, to go to Santa Clara or even Stanford.

I remember West Valley College, back in the early 70's was full of Vietnam vets getting A's in electronics tech classes. Disciplined; they went on to fuel the Valley. Great times!

Success isn't free.
 
Sandy is not taking the risk of running a giant legacy company. He does not have to take the consequence of a company taking too much risk and fail.

Let's say Ford spend billions to get a new foundation for EV, and it couldn't sell. This is basically what Rivian is now. They didn't fail but they didn't make money, and could go out of business (Rivian may if miracle doesn't happen soon).

Ford did the safe thing: reusing current design to reduce risk. Sure they look like a mess but even if things fail they are still managable. Tesla almost went out of business a few times and Elon had to pump and dump dodgy coins and flame throwers to help it, and got himself almost banned by SEC for shady market manipulation. You really think anyone else in the auto industry can do that?

Agreed it's easy for sandy to say but he also knows what you can do with what you have and who made better choices at each stage of engineering.

He knows where the old school guys do it better and where the for lack of a better term- new school guys do.

I never said it would be cheap quick or easy for Ford to start up a whole new vehicle division based on new to them technology, or that they could make money. I said the opposite - this is going to be hard for them.

Ford definitely laid it down with a great first efforts, I think the mach e is best looking rig in the class, but they also went too far calling it a mustang and blew it missing the trip time targets, excessive recalls (HVJB) , and a dealer network not ready to support the car.

It's trendmously risk and I applaud Ford for breaking out the division and not hiding it.
Farley had the balls on this one only Elon has. Every other big boy blends to hide specific performance.
 
And so what? Companies aren't forced to do business in China.
While that is true, CEO's have profit motives. There not responsible for the future of the republic. That is supposed to be the job of our elected officials which is to make arrangements that benefit the majority, not the rich minority.

If I am a CEO I can move to china, hand over my intellectual property, get cheap labor, I don't have US payroll taxes, or follow US environmental laws, and I get to re-import my goods virtually free of charge, all the while the US Navy enforces freedom of navigation on the taxpayers dime. It shouldn't be that way.
 
There is not enough qualified talent if you don't pay enough.

I can tell you we have enough US semiconductor talents, but many smart people decided they can switch to software and make 2x as much, so they left. The opposite is true in Japan, S Korea, and Taiwan, that's why their fabs are better.

You get what you pay for no matter where you are. The best engineers in India eventually move to the US because we pay them better and they get recruited or transferred here, and then they make market rate here instead of the 1/3 to 1/4 they have to put up with. It is our job to make sure the things we hire them to build has enough profit margins to support their careers over the competitors.
That's the point. We need to educate more talent.
 
Ford is a family business. The shares you trade on NYSE is not the same shares the family is holding in terms of voting power. Meta and Google are similar as well.
The Ford family has special "Class B shares" which gives them 40% of the proxy vote, even though they own less than 5% of the company.
Alphabet is very similar - I think the founders have 51% of the vote while only owning 10% of the company.

Should be illegal IMHO - HELLO SEC, where are you?
 
The reason Silicon Valley exists was the promise of high quality, low cost education. Costs are much higher than when I went, but even then the local companies would pay for at least a portion of college costs. After I graduated from San Jose State at the tender age of 40, Novellus (now Lam Research) offered to send me, actually urged me, to go to Santa Clara or even Stanford.

I remember West Valley College, back in the early 70's was full of Vietnam vets getting A's in electronics tech classes. Disciplined; they went on to fuel the Valley. Great times!

Success isn't free.
Success isn't free, but that does not have anything to do with the policy of one country.
There are ways to get education paid (all my education in the US was paid by someone), but that is not enough to compete with China if we are raising an issue about the number of engineers. We have a huge shortage of engineers. And when I say huge Our engineering college is constantly having good enrollment, and if they don't, it is not negative, at least. But according to BLS, shortage of engineers between 2016 and 2026 is around 6 million. It is a great field to get a job, but at the same time, it is a huge problem if we are talking about competition with China because. they think investing into engineers (among others) is actually very profitable for everyone.
 
That seems to be the popular opinion. But the reality is far more complex. A commuter car is not a good fit for me. Even my Jag F-Type does long road trips. I'm retired and still drive a lot.

We were in a horrific crash recently with my older F150. Unlicensed dump truck driver that should not be here. Cars are now quite unsafe due to not just the size of vehicles on the road, but the staggering number (in the tens of millions) of unskilled, unlicensed and uninsured drivers.

Here is what my entire neighborhood seems to do:

SWS1222-Towing-Boats-2-1024x768.jpg


I've owned my 2024 F150 for 8 days now, and so far I've made 6 cargo runs. It gets used to move stuff and I've already scratched the tailgate up. I am not alone in this either. Pickup truck owners tend to use their trucks more than people think. I can't be without one. And I really don't like trucks. I'm a sports car guy.
Well they do make utility trailers....😁
 
Success isn't free, but that does not have anything to do with the policy of one country.
There are ways to get education paid (all my education in the US was paid by someone), but that is not enough to compete with China if we are raising an issue about the number of engineers. We have a huge shortage of engineers. And when I say huge Our engineering college is constantly having good enrollment, and if they don't, it is not negative, at least. But according to BLS, shortage of engineers between 2016 and 2026 is around 6 million. It is a great field to get a job, but at the same time, it is a huge problem if we are talking about competition with China because. they think investing into engineers (among others) is actually very profitable for everyone.
We need to educate more engineers, technical people and business people. That's my 2 cents.
Otherwise we cede the future to someone who will.

Silicon Valley has a lot of qualified people; go outside and it's another story. Why? Because we make them.
 
We need to educate more engineers, technical people and business people. That's my 2 cents.
Otherwise we cede the future to someone who will.

Silicon Valley has a lot of qualified people; go outside and it's another story. Why? Because we make them.
Of course Sillicon Valley has a lot of educated people. The type of industry in Silicon Valley determines education levels. However, there are numerous regions in the US that have qualified and actually rank better in education than that region.
Also, yes, companies around Silicon Valley do support the education of their employees, but so does pretty much any serious organization in the country, whether it is a private company, public company, or governmental agency. I meet weekly with people who actually decide how much they will reimburse their workers for education, what my department has to offer to cover gaps, etc.
However, again, we chose to go this way, and the Chinese decided to go the other way. Chinese have basically an excess number of engineers, whereas Silicon Valley, regardless of all success, etc., does not! Don't forget, we are talking about engineers that are necessary to run everyday assemblies, etc. (what Tim Cook recently talked about). Silicon Valley does not have nearly enough of those engineers, and Ann Arbor in Michigan would probably be a much better place to get an education in that type of engineering. That is because even though organizations pay for education or part of it, people are generally very strategic not to waste that opportunity and are careful in what degrees they get. I am not sure whether anything is assembled in Silicon Valley, so why would San Jose State offer that type of education?

That is the problem. For companies to open factories in the US, they must develop also robust partnerships with local universities not only when it comes to general support and research (that is given) but to roll out enough skilled workforce for that type of industry. That takes time! For example, our engineering department is very strong in computer science, aerospace etc. bcs. huge military presence. But let's say Apple decides to assemble MacBook in Colorado Springs. Our university would need at least a year (and that is super fast timeline, pretty much impossible) just to hire necessary people to offer classes. In China, you have basically suficit of engineers (which in US would depress salaries etc) and can offer to Apple immediate workforce. In China, people can enter universities for free and roll out engineers like on the conveyor belt. That has a lot of negative implications, too, and there is the issue of access in systems that are "free," as not everyone can actually enroll, but there is no financial pressure on those who choose to pursue that career, and they are more likely to risk going in that field. Here in the US, unless jobs are available, no one is going to spend $43,000 a year at Berkley (before financial aid) unless they can get a job. China, on the other hand, has at its disposal enough engineers to make Apple choose China as a point of assembly, not because it is cheap but because of the availability of a skilled workforce.

Both systems have advantages. The best universities are located in the US. Yes, there are some Chinese universities in the top 10, and some British, such as Oxford, Cambridge or Eton, but overall, the US universities produce the highest number of patents. So far, the US system is proving better, but ballooning student debt might create huge problems.
 
The best school is the local state college down the street.
The cost of education skyrocketed for numerous reasons:
1. Lack of funding from states.
2. Students want all the amenities: Fancy gyms, fancy dorm rooms, etc. That costs A LOT of money.
3. We have to be compliant with various laws, acts etc. well, that costs money.
Don't get me started about delivery and that everyone wants it online, regardless that it is a crime against their future. However, while I am absolutist when it comes to in-person education, I had to argue for my programs to go also online because I don't want to let go mom of two small kids bcs. we don't have enough students.
So, comparing higher education in China and here is bit simplistic. That being said, the US makes 50% of world innovations. Here is good example: Russia innovates on par with Austria. Basically they have same number of patents. Alabama has same number of patents as Austria and Russia! The Chinese problem is innovation. Yes, they innovate, but I don't know how many times I said this: totalitarian regimes are really, really bad at innovation. You cannot innovate as much as free societies because of one simple reason: innovation requires freedom of expression. Ford CEO is looking that from his perspective and he is worried about his company. Looking from the perspective of country competition, I am personally worried about the Chinese recession, which is coming. I am worried because their recession will be our security problem for two reasons:
1. They might try to "export" crisis, meaning do something dumb in regard to Taiwan or the South China Sea.
2. If the crisis is really bad, I don't think CCP is as safe from political earthquakes as people since Tienamen Sqeuere only knew of economic progress. Once progress stops, they will question the CCP and the political system.

So I would not worry about China as a competitor to the US. But there is no doubt that some of companies are at danger from competition originating there.
You left out easy student loans which allowed the universities to continually raise prices every year without affecting their demand.
 
Success isn't free, but that does not have anything to do with the policy of one country.
There are ways to get education paid (all my education in the US was paid by someone), but that is not enough to compete with China if we are raising an issue about the number of engineers. We have a huge shortage of engineers. And when I say huge Our engineering college is constantly having good enrollment, and if they don't, it is not negative, at least. But according to BLS, shortage of engineers between 2016 and 2026 is around 6 million. It is a great field to get a job, but at the same time, it is a huge problem if we are talking about competition with China because. they think investing into engineers (among others) is actually very profitable for everyone.
Were supposedly short of engineers, but lots of graduated engineers are working outside Engineering. Not sure how to correlate those two bits of data. I think the answer is everyone wants to hire experienced engineers, but no one wants to train any. Also, there are only a fraction of the Engineering internships there were in the past.

https://interestingengineering.com/...ates-actually-work-in-their-respective-fields

As for Chinese Engineers - there are a lot of good Chinese Engineering schools, but there are also a lot of low brow Engineering schools in China, akin to the "get your degree in 3 quarters" advertisements you see here on late night TV. Remember every piece of data that comes out of China is controlled by the CCP, and likely every CCP officials kids have 3 degrees from schools they never attended.
 
Were supposedly short of engineers, but lots of graduated engineers are working outside Engineering. Not sure how to correlate those two bits of data. I think the answer is everyone wants to hire experienced engineers, but no one wants to train any. Also, there are only a fraction of the Engineering internships there were in the past.

https://interestingengineering.com/...ates-actually-work-in-their-respective-fields

As for Chinese Engineers - there are a lot of good Chinese Engineering schools, but there are also a lot of low brow Engineering schools in China, akin to the "get your degree in 3 quarters" advertisements you see here on late night TV. Remember every piece of data that comes out of China is controlled by the CCP, and likely every CCP officials kids have 3 degrees from schools they never attended.
Absolutely agree about China although we have for profit schools that are basically bunch of grifters.
As for engineers, there are jobs that pay better maybe. Also, cities and counties need a lot of them, and very often pay doesn’t match cost of living (any skiing county in Colorado would be prime example).
 
Lotsa engineering talent comments here, for good reason. I added the lack of business grads; @edyvw mentioned business needs to lead in education to supply their demand in post # 73.
I suggest you review the following graph and consider the incredible influence, and importance, of disruptive innovation. Want a case in point? The early digital cameras were crappy. Want another? Teslas were only for rich California granola heads and would go belly up any day now.

And now ya tell me CEO Farley is shell shocked by his trip to China and a ride in one of their EVs?
It wasn't so long ago Henry disrupted the world with his Highland Park plant... Autos on an assembly line? Who'da thunk it?

1726705904916.jpg
 
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Absolutely agree about China although we have for profit schools that are basically bunch of grifters.
As for engineers, there are jobs that pay better maybe. Also, cities and counties need a lot of them, and very often pay doesn’t match cost of living (any skiing county in Colorado would be prime example).
I have two daughters in Engineering, one just started masters, one is Senior in Bachelors. They both tell me they know kids that graduated ahead of them that still don't have jobs - work at grocery store or whatever. I don't think there all going to investment houses for better pay. Having an internship is a big help (work experience) but there aren't very many of those around.
 
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