For all you who are HIGH on TGMO!

[Rand]

Big +1 clevy.
I was trying to get there without being quite so pointed.
Critical facts are missing, poor misinterpretation of the UOA trying to use a uoa for engine wear?
This is basically READ more post less, dont make up your mind before you post.

This is indeed a typical "cry wolf" bash TGMO post. and just FYI I have never used TGMO nor do I plan to. Not one of the people hyping it.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Ha.
So we've got a single used oil analysis here with possibly high numbers coming from a basically new engine that is still breaking in,and for some reason tgmo is to blame.
First off a blackstone used oil analysis that costs 30 bucks isn't in any way accurate for measuring wear. Its duty is to monitor the oils life,so putting any bets in the wear metal measurements is a bet lost.
The equipment they use for these cheap analysis cannot accurately measure wear metals and they would get different metal numbers from the same sample if measured again.
Secondly how can anyone tell if its actually anything more than a particle streak considering there is only a single sample and nothing to compare it to.

All anyone can glean from this used oil analysis is that the oil had fuel in it judging by the flashpoint and it was changed prematurely.
If 10000 miles was too much for this oil that was developed for Toyota engines then we can be sure of a long list of vehicles in the dealer repair shops and some mention of it in a simple google search.
Nothing to see here except a newb's lack of experience reading a used oil analysis and his/her crying wolf.
Carry on

 

[ccl088]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
Something else, is that the stealership may not have actually changed the oil at 20k. Every used car dealer will tell you the oil has been changed... If that is true then that is a pretty good report, for an 11k run on a fairly new engine.



Bought from original owner. Verified owner stating dealer serviced by VIN at Toyota Owners website.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: ccl088
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Something else, is that the stealership may not have actually changed the oil at 20k. Every used car dealer will tell you the oil has been changed... If that is true then that is a pretty good report, for an 11k run on a fairly new engine.



Bought from original owner. Verified owner stating dealer serviced by VIN at Toyota Owners website.


Thanks...hmmmm.

 

[Garak]

As Clevy mentioned, you've got one UOA on an engine with hardly any miles on it. There is absolutely nothing to be alarmed about. I do understand the concern about whether the oil was actually changed or not, or if the correct oil (i.e. the one the customer paid for) was used. That's a very valid reason for doing it oneself.

 

[simple_gifts]

An infinite number of trending lines can be drawn thru one data point.

 

[Roob]

Like everything in life, you just have to consider the source.

 

[nepadriver]

This picture sums up things

Captain Hyperbole

 

[kschachn]

IKR? Drama.

Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Fine, put in some 10w-60 if it makes you happy... Don't come to the forum with the attitude that Blackstone is infallible, especially when you know little about the car and have no trending history. Besides, it sounds like you have your mind made up already.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
IKR? Drama.

Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Fine, put in some 10w-60 if it makes you happy... Don't come to the forum with the attitude that Blackstone is infallible, especially when you know little about the car and have no trending history. Besides, it sounds like you have your mind made up already.


Totally...

 

[RTexasF]

Is there a point to this post? I see none whatsoever.

 

[JerryBob]

Just for reference: The copper on my 4 cyl Tacoma with 13k miles at the time of the UOA, and 5k on the oil came back with a copper of 5ppm. I say this just for reference. Iron was 9.

This was using Mobil-1, and the vast majority of the 5k miles were long highway miles on a transcontinental trip.

You can find the UOA in early August 2013.

Who know, the copper may have come out differently if they were city miles.

 

[ccl088]

That "CRACK" from TGMO must be some good stuff, just as I thought..lol

 

[volk06]

I have never used TGMO and probably never will.

You are taking 1 data point and drawing conclusions. You took 1 UOA at 1200mi and are now condemning TGMO. 6ppm is nothing to be concerned about with a relatively new engine that is STILL breaking in. For instance, take a look at my UOA on my ecoboost. The copper is due to an oil cooler. According to your logic, this oil is horrible. So of course you are going to get flamed by coming on here with bad data and making a claim. Until you have data to back up your claim, stick around a while and read up, you may just learn something.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2852963

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: JerryBob
Just for reference: The copper on my 4 cyl Tacoma with 13k miles at the time of the UOA, and 5k on the oil came back with a copper of 5ppm. I say this just for reference. Iron was 9.

This was using Mobil-1, and the vast majority of the 5k miles were long highway miles on a transcontinental trip.

You can find the UOA in early August 2013.

Who know, the copper may have come out differently if they were city miles.



How much copper is your oil exposed to in relation to possible oil cooler plumbing and so on.
5ppm is nothing if there's no copper in the path of the oil.
40ppm could be nothing too if there's 5 feet of copper plumbing running to an oil cooler or perhaps a twin by-pass oil filter set up.

Knowing the intricacies of the engine in question will go a long way in determining what metals seem high of not.
If my old sohc mod motor had 5ppn copper if be scratching my head and would be very concerned considering the bearings are copper-free and no oil cooler.

Just saying

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: ccl088
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
There is nothing wrong with the report on wear metals for an engine still breaking in. You would be really alarmed if you had a GM engine with 50+ ppm copper.

Blackstone has been wrong about viscosity before and even if they are your wear is clearly unaffected with it being in grade and single digit iron.


Well if Iron was high then I would really have a problem. Bearings are softer than steel. But I was after 2 things in the analyses, 1)Was it a Full Synthetic? 2)Was Iron high because of another problem I am having (ie: Start up clatter). So I was happy about the low Iron levels.


So low iron eh.
How many internal parts are even iron. Is the block iron,what kind of bearings are in it?

Knowing the intimate details on how the engine was built as well as what metals are used and where can go a long way in helping determine potential problems.

I suggest taking this example and check it against other similar engines at various mileages to help determine if a problem exists(there isn't one)
In fact why don't you pm Dnewton. The guy had thousands of used oil analysis. Maybe he can round up a few similar examples.
I also suggest reading the articles posted on the home page here on the site. Pay special attention to the one on normalcy,and absorb the info about too frequent oil changes and how they affect the anti-wear layer applied by an oil in service.
Read each and every article and if you get hung up on something make a note of it. The answers will come in a different article or post a question while posting the part you aren't getting.
I'm sorry for being so blunt in my first post however after reading the op's comments to other members who are trying to help him understand I felt I had to be clear and not dance around.
Op
You've basically got a brand new engine that's still breaking in. Some Toyota engines show high wear metals up til 60000-70000 miles before metals start trending lower,so to get up in arms like you have,then trash a known stellar oil that performs flawlessly in the correct applications will get you flamed very fast here.
You've misinterpreted and assumed that a common cheap used oil analysis is some kind of dead accurate method of determining the condition of your engine and using the data as some kind of voodoo,psychic,clairvoyant method of determine whether you've got a problem.
We've had used oil analysis posted that were stellar and within 1000 miles the engine muched itself and we've had used oil analysis that showed iron off the charts but at tear down there was no measurable wear so consider that when determining if you've got issues with your engine.
A typical 30 dollar used oil analysis is acquired to test the oils condition,that's it. You'd need equipment far more accurate and the used oil analysis would cost much more if your aim was to accurately determine the metallic components in used oil.
Since you've got 1 already I suggest you follow the oil life monitor and when it says change the oil get another used oil analysis done and compare,then repeat until your satisfied the oil is able to run the indicated miles.

And I haven't used,nor do I have any short term plans of buying any tgmo,so I'm not playing favorites nor do I have a dog in this race. I'm merely trying to inform the new guy on exactly what a used oil analysis is for and how to monitor the engines trending.
With that said I will bow out. I thank everyone who posted in their attempt to inform the new guy. With any luck he'll read the front page articles and begin on this path of data acquisition.

 

[ccl088]

Originally Posted By: volk06
I have never used TGMO and probably never will.

You are taking 1 data point and drawing conclusions. You took 1 UOA at 1200mi and are now condemning TGMO. 6ppm is nothing to be concerned about with a relatively new engine that is STILL breaking in. For instance, take a look at my UOA on my ecoboost. The copper is due to an oil cooler. According to your logic, this oil is horrible. So of course you are going to get flamed by coming on here with bad data and making a claim. Until you have data to back up your claim, stick around a while and read up, you may just learn something.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2852963




I didn't see anywhere in that thread a conformation of the reason for your high CU content. Anywho, I don't think the 2ar-fe has an oil cooler. So at 3X the average for this engine (per Blackstones aveages), where else would it be coming from? The TGMO formulation? Also I don't see what Blackstone said your averages are for your engine.

 

[ccl088]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: ccl088
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
There is nothing wrong with the report on wear metals for an engine still breaking in. You would be really alarmed if you had a GM engine with 50+ ppm copper.

Blackstone has been wrong about viscosity before and even if they are your wear is clearly unaffected with it being in grade and single digit iron.


Well if Iron was high then I would really have a problem. Bearings are softer than steel. But I was after 2 things in the analyses, 1)Was it a Full Synthetic? 2)Was Iron high because of another problem I am having (ie: Start up clatter). So I was happy about the low Iron levels.


So low iron eh.
How many internal parts are even iron. Is the block iron,what kind of bearings are in it?

Knowing the intimate details on how the engine was built as well as what metals are used and where can go a long way in helping determine potential problems.

I suggest taking this example and check it against other similar engines at various mileages to help determine if a problem exists(there isn't one)
In fact why don't you pm Dnewton. The guy had thousands of used oil analysis. Maybe he can round up a few similar examples.
I also suggest reading the articles posted on the home page here on the site. Pay special attention to the one on normalcy,and absorb the info about too frequent oil changes and how they affect the anti-wear layer applied by an oil in service.
Read each and every article and if you get hung up on something make a note of it. The answers will come in a different article or post a question while posting the part you aren't getting.
I'm sorry for being so blunt in my first post however after reading the op's comments to other members who are trying to help him understand I felt I had to be clear and not dance around.
Op
You've basically got a brand new engine that's still breaking in. Some Toyota engines show high wear metals up til 60000-70000 miles before metals start trending lower,so to get up in arms like you have,then trash a known stellar oil that performs flawlessly in the correct applications will get you flamed very fast here.
You've misinterpreted and assumed that a common cheap used oil analysis is some kind of dead accurate method of determining the condition of your engine and using the data as some kind of voodoo,psychic,clairvoyant method of determine whether you've got a problem.
We've had used oil analysis posted that were stellar and within 1000 miles the engine muched itself and we've had used oil analysis that showed iron off the charts but at tear down there was no measurable wear so consider that when determining if you've got issues with your engine.
A typical 30 dollar used oil analysis is acquired to test the oils condition,that's it. You'd need equipment far more accurate and the used oil analysis would cost much more if your aim was to accurately determine the metallic components in used oil.
Since you've got 1 already I suggest you follow the oil life monitor and when it says change the oil get another used oil analysis done and compare,then repeat until your satisfied the oil is able to run the indicated miles.

And I haven't used,nor do I have any short term plans of buying any tgmo,so I'm not playing favorites nor do I have a dog in this race. I'm merely trying to inform the new guy on exactly what a used oil analysis is for and how to monitor the engines trending.
With that said I will bow out. I thank everyone who posted in their attempt to inform the new guy. With any luck he'll read the front page articles and begin on this path of data acquisition.



I assume the use of "IRON" covers "STEEL" as well. My VVT start up clatter, the VVT controller is made of steel.

Blackstone, as much as you seem to not like them is all I have and many others have to use so I will go with it. Blackstone provided me with the averages for this motor from there VAST data that I don't have so why would I doubt them?

I have read plenty but don't post much, I mean this forum is about oil, not a hobby of some kind so I read. I am not a spring chicken and have experience under my belt so just because I look like a "newbee" I DO have a clue thank you.

 

[volk06]

Originally Posted By: ccl088
Originally Posted By: volk06
I have never used TGMO and probably never will.

You are taking 1 data point and drawing conclusions. You took 1 UOA at 1200mi and are now condemning TGMO. 6ppm is nothing to be concerned about with a relatively new engine that is STILL breaking in. For instance, take a look at my UOA on my ecoboost. The copper is due to an oil cooler. According to your logic, this oil is horrible. So of course you are going to get flamed by coming on here with bad data and making a claim. Until you have data to back up your claim, stick around a while and read up, you may just learn something.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2852963




I didn't see anywhere in that thread a conformation of the reason for your high CU content. Anywho, I don't think the 2ar-fe has an oil cooler. So at 3X the average for this engine (per Blackstones aveages), where else would it be coming from? The TGMO formulation? Also I don't see what Blackstone said your averages are for your engine.


My figures are all below blackstone's averages, even though that's irrelevant. That is ONE thread, there are many here and I have more UOA on this engine, the oil cooler is the reason as there is a CU different in the 5.0 V8's UOA with and without an oil cooler.

You need to realize those averages are for ALL models of that engine, regardless of miles. If you have a young engine, of course they are going to be higher than the averages.

Originally Posted By: ccl088
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: ccl088
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
There is nothing wrong with the report on wear metals for an engine still breaking in. You would be really alarmed if you had a GM engine with 50+ ppm copper.

Blackstone has been wrong about viscosity before and even if they are your wear is clearly unaffected with it being in grade and single digit iron.


Well if Iron was high then I would really have a problem. Bearings are softer than steel. But I was after 2 things in the analyses, 1)Was it a Full Synthetic? 2)Was Iron high because of another problem I am having (ie: Start up clatter). So I was happy about the low Iron levels.


So low iron eh.
How many internal parts are even iron. Is the block iron,what kind of bearings are in it?

Knowing the intimate details on how the engine was built as well as what metals are used and where can go a long way in helping determine potential problems.

I suggest taking this example and check it against other similar engines at various mileages to help determine if a problem exists(there isn't one)
In fact why don't you pm Dnewton. The guy had thousands of used oil analysis. Maybe he can round up a few similar examples.
I also suggest reading the articles posted on the home page here on the site. Pay special attention to the one on normalcy,and absorb the info about too frequent oil changes and how they affect the anti-wear layer applied by an oil in service.
Read each and every article and if you get hung up on something make a note of it. The answers will come in a different article or post a question while posting the part you aren't getting.
I'm sorry for being so blunt in my first post however after reading the op's comments to other members who are trying to help him understand I felt I had to be clear and not dance around.
Op
You've basically got a brand new engine that's still breaking in. Some Toyota engines show high wear metals up til 60000-70000 miles before metals start trending lower,so to get up in arms like you have,then trash a known stellar oil that performs flawlessly in the correct applications will get you flamed very fast here.
You've misinterpreted and assumed that a common cheap used oil analysis is some kind of dead accurate method of determining the condition of your engine and using the data as some kind of voodoo,psychic,clairvoyant method of determine whether you've got a problem.
We've had used oil analysis posted that were stellar and within 1000 miles the engine muched itself and we've had used oil analysis that showed iron off the charts but at tear down there was no measurable wear so consider that when determining if you've got issues with your engine.
A typical 30 dollar used oil analysis is acquired to test the oils condition,that's it. You'd need equipment far more accurate and the used oil analysis would cost much more if your aim was to accurately determine the metallic components in used oil.
Since you've got 1 already I suggest you follow the oil life monitor and when it says change the oil get another used oil analysis done and compare,then repeat until your satisfied the oil is able to run the indicated miles.

And I haven't used,nor do I have any short term plans of buying any tgmo,so I'm not playing favorites nor do I have a dog in this race. I'm merely trying to inform the new guy on exactly what a used oil analysis is for and how to monitor the engines trending.
With that said I will bow out. I thank everyone who posted in their attempt to inform the new guy. With any luck he'll read the front page articles and begin on this path of data acquisition.



I assume the use of "IRON" covers "STEEL" as well. My VVT start up clatter, the VVT controller is made of steel.

Blackstone, as much as you seem to not like them is all I have and many others have to use so I will go with it. Blackstone provided me with the averages for this motor from there VAST data that I don't have so why would I doubt them?

I have read plenty but don't post much, I mean this forum is about oil, not a hobby of some kind so I read. I am not a spring chicken and have experience under my belt so just because I look like a "newbee" I DO have a clue thank you.


Apparently you don't because you're condemning a lube with only ONE data point, ONE uoa, a UOA with only 1400mi.

 

[The_Eric]

Why should you doubt them? Because ONE singular UOA isn't enough to tell diddly squat! ESPECIALLY when there is a margin of error AND you're looking at single digit wear numbers. Statistical noise either way could easily sway the outcome of your UOA. You should do some serious reading on Blackstone UOAs and how they're done before you come back to this board spouting off like they're absolute and unquestionable.

So, you're either
A: Splitting hairs based on an poorly made, uninformed decision.

or

B: Trolling.

If A), then wise up and listen to the good advice being given to you

If B), get a life or move on...

 

[ccl088]

Hehelol and whatever else..