Firestone Alignment - I Am Told I Need To Purchase Eccentric Cam Bolts

[Fitz98]

Went to Firestone today to get an alignment on my 98 Expedition 5.4 4x4 after installing a new upper control arm on the passenger side.
The kid who was doing the job said he was not willing to try to adjust camber/caster because there are no eccentric cam bolts and was afraid he would create a problem that would be worse if he tried to make the adjustment and without a master tech around, that was the best he could do. They charged me 106.00 to adjust the toe and it still pulls to the left.
It seems like the factory setup from 98 was able to be aligned before cam bolts, I don't understand why I am being told I need these in order to make the adjustment.
1) Can this alignment be done without the cam bolts?
2) If I need the cam bolts, is there any brand in particular I should get or stay away from?

 

[atikovi]

Then why did he do the job at all if he didn't have the parts. They should have pull it out of the bay and not charged you anything.

 

[eljefino]

Caster and camber will definitely cause a pull if it's not set right. You had the opportunity to do so but declined. Confused.

IDK how ford does it, but if the aftermarket offers cam bolts for that application, that's how it could be done.

 

[MParr]

The wonderful stories of Firestone Stores! I avoid those places like the plague. You would have been better off going to the Ford dealership.

 

[NitroM3]

If the Alignment Tech told you after setting up your vehicle that it is out of adjustment specification range then to correct you need the alignment bolt kit.
I just naturally order them anymore with any of the vehicle's I own production dates from 2000 and newer regardless if needed or not.
Most I have ever seen is from 6 -20 bucks not sure why you didn't just get them?

 

[Fitz98]

Caster and camber will definitely cause a pull if it's not set right. You had the opportunity to do so but declined. Confused.

IDK how ford does it, but if the aftermarket offers cam bolts for that application, that's how it could be done.

Story is a little more than just that. They did not have the bolts in stock to do the job. It's not that I declined, it's that they weren't willing to try it and didn't have the parts to do it. I saw the kid working on it hanging on a wrench with an extension bar bouncing up and down trying to adjust tie rod end. I asked him about the trouble. He said he was turning it the wrong way. I didn't want to pay until job was done right, but the lady at the counter said that's what I get for coming in late in the day...3:30, and that I had to pay, but since it is a 1 year plan, I can bring it back to finish the job later. Kind of frustrating as the consumer, but I can also see it must be frustrating for the mechanics, I just feel like this kid was not the right guy for this job.
I will call the master tech tomorrow and get the parts if needed. They are easy to install.
I see them online for about $25.00 per side.

 

[NitroM3]

The wonderful stories of Firestone Stores! I avoid those places like the plague. You would have been better off going to the Ford dealership.

In all honesty Firestone is one of the better places to go. You just need to be clear what you want and look at all the work before you leave. If you have a problem contact and talk only to the manager if there is any problem from pick up to a couple days after . This is mostly common since to do anyway. If you go more then a few days then either a part was defective which is not really their fault. Sure you might have had a less then positive experience with them but then you always read about negative reports that always greater then those who left and never had one issues which is 75% or greater then negative.
In the OP case the alignment Tech was up front and said he could not perform a corrected alignment with the condition of the suspension without the camber adjusting bolts. I might add that most insurance that cover service shops are clear about some service such as alignment and what they are allowed to do. You can't as an example ask for alignment specification that are out side a OEM specified range just because you want your car to handle better. In that case you need to go to a shop that specializes in that type of alignment.

 

[NitroM3]

Story is a little more than just that. They did not have the bolts in stock to do the job. It's not that I declined, it's that they weren't willing to try it and didn't have the parts to do it. I saw the kid working on it hanging on a wrench with an extension bar bouncing up and down trying to adjust tie rod end. I asked him about the trouble. He said he was turning it the wrong way. I didn't want to pay until job was done right, but the lady at the counter said that's what I get for coming in late in the day...3:30, and that I had to pay, but since it is a 1 year plan, I can bring it back to finish the job later. Kind of frustrating as the consumer, but I can also see it must be frustrating for the mechanics, I just feel like this kid was not the right guy for this job.

That is really strange because generally even Firestone will get parts from time to time from a local retailer using a commercial account for discount pricing and many of those chains like AutoZone deliver???
If you are sure that was what she told you .....
I would highly recommend to call and talk to the manager tomorrow or Firestone may be buying you a pair of new tires?

 

[Astro14]

Eccentric cam bolts won’t make any difference on this suspension.

The kid is clueless. Ford didn’t make a suspension that was non-adjustable from the factory.

Your upper control arm bolts have big flat washers on either end, square in shape, with raised lips. The bolts, with their washers, sit in a rectangular bracket, with elongated bolt holes.

Loosen the bolt, place a pry bar between washer and bracket, lever the bolt inward, or outward, to set the camber.

Tighten the bolt.

Done.

He didn’t know that, because you can’t see the elongated bolt slots behind that big washer.

Eccentric bolts would replace the existing bolt and make no difference since they would be pushing against the washer lip, not the bracket.

When you’ve done a set of upper control arms on that vintage F-150, or Expedition, you would see how Ford set it up to be adjustable.

But to a new technician, yeah, they don’t know how it works.

Sad. Really.

 

[Fitz98]

I am mostly curious how Ford did it between 1998 and when it became recommended to change the bolts. I am not an expert by any means, I just feel like the bolts might make it easier.
It's weird, because my vehicle does not look like it has anything but nuts and bolts, no cam adjustment at all, these are original, unless the previous owner changed them125k miles ago.


They printed me a piece of paper with a picture of the suspension that their alignment machine generated. The overwritten text said:
"Move upper control arm in or out of the frame pocket to align
If equipped with an alignment plate, remove alignment plate and install washers and nuts
Note: Some models may have eccentric cam bolts installed or an eccentric cam bolt kit may be available to aid in adjustment"

 

[doitmyself]

I've had similar issues twice in several decades. Once was a '85 Chevy Celebrity where the Firestone Center said he could do a "better" alignment job with the cam bolts (additional $89). The second time I had my ace mechanic do some front suspension work on a Ford Ranger and he asked to have on hand some cam bolts "in case" he needed them (he didn't). Both vehicles did not have cam bolts OE.

Why ARE cam bolts recommended when they did not come as OE?? In my Chevy Celebrity instance, I got the impression Firestone was scamming me into something not necessary, a profit motive thrown at the gullible?

EDIT: Astro 14 seems to have the answer. Fitz98's note says "cam bolt kit may be available to aid in adjustment".

 

[Junk]

The large rectangular washers that came OE on that suspension were installed by the factory on every expedition and f150 built, and their purpose is to locate the upper control arms in exactly the same location on every vehicle so they don't have to jack around with setting it on every truck they built. Figure it out on one, and the rest should be the same. As far as attempting to align it after removing the rectangular locators and not install the caster/camber adjustment cam kit, it might seem like just loosening the bolts and sliding the arm in and out would be easy enough, but it's not. The opposite frankly, it's a huge pain in the ass to get everything set right and hope it doesn't slip before you get the nuts tightened. Alignment cam and bolt kit is the right answer.

 

[Fitz98]

I am confused as well. The steel ends on the bushings looked like they were pressed or stamped to create ridges that would grip the frame bracket to prevent movement once the arm is aligned and bolted tight.
When the bolts were loosened, I could easily manipulate the position of the arm within the slots. I just wanted a better understanding of this before talking to the master tech tomorrow.
I guess a cam rolling against this tab might make for easier adjustment, but seems like it is doable without, like Astro14 said, unless I am missing something.

 

[Fitz98]

The large rectangular washers that came OE on that suspension were installed by the factory on every expedition and f150 built, and their purpose is to locate the upper control arms in exactly the same location on every vehicle so they don't have to jack around with setting it on every truck they built. Figure it out on one, and the rest should be the same. As far as attempting to align it after removing the rectangular locators and not install the caster/camber adjustment cam kit, it might seem like just loosening the bolts and sliding the arm in and out would be easy enough, but it's not. The opposite frankly, it's a huge pain in the ass to get everything set right and hope it doesn't slip before you get the nuts tightened. Alignment cam and bolt kit is the right answer.

If I understand correctly, the challenge is holding the part in position long enough to torque the bolts in position. Is that correct? Do they perform any function to prevent movement once torqued?
Any particular alignment bolt over another? There seems to be lots of options available online. Moog and AC Delco being readily available on Amazon

 

[vw7674]

Story is a little more than just that. They did not have the bolts in stock to do the job. It's not that I declined, it's that they weren't willing to try it and didn't have the parts to do it. I saw the kid working on it hanging on a wrench with an extension bar bouncing up and down trying to adjust tie rod end. I asked him about the trouble. He said he was turning it the wrong way. I didn't want to pay until job was done right, but the lady at the counter said that's what I get for coming in late in the day...3:30, and that I had to pay, but since it is a 1 year plan, I can bring it back to finish the job later. Kind of frustrating as the consumer, but I can also see it must be frustrating for the mechanics, I just feel like this kid was not the right guy for this job.
I will call the master tech tomorrow and get the parts if needed. They are easy to install.
I see them online for about $25.00 per side.

Old Fords & cam adjust bolts go together like PBn'J.
Used to be $26/pair. : ( Fords were big on 'rear coning' too, for the FWD Escorts.
I'd call & see when they can get you in for those adjuster bolts. But I hate tire scrub.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Eccentric cam bolts won’t make any difference on this suspension.

The kid is clueless. Ford didn’t make a suspension that was non-adjustable from the factory.

Your upper control arm bolts have big flat washers on either end, square in shape, with raised lips. The bolts, with their washers, sit in a rectangular bracket, with elongated bolt holes.

Loosen the bolt, place a pry bar between washer and bracket, lever the bolt inward, or outward, to set the camber.

Tighten the bolt.

Done.

He didn’t know that, because you can’t see the elongated bolt slots behind that big washer.

Eccentric bolts would replace the existing bolt and make no difference since they would be pushing against the washer lip, not the bracket.

When you’ve done a set of upper control arms on that vintage F-150, or Expedition, you would see how Ford set it up to be adjustable.

But to a new technician, yeah, they don’t know how it works.

Sad. Really.

Been there, done that.
I bought this kit to make it easier on the front end tech to adjust my front end. Since they were installed and my front end aligned, my truck drives much better. Even better than originally from the factory. And, the tech now doesn't have to fight the adjustment points with pry bars. YMMV.
(OP, buy the kit! It's worth EVERY penny!)

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[Astro14]

I’ve recently done some front end work on that vintage F-150.

Look, if the bolts are cheap, then just get them and make the truck easier for the next tech.

 

[Junk]

If I understand correctly, the challenge is holding the part in position long enough to torque the bolts in position. Is that correct? Do they perform any function to prevent movement once torqued?
Any particular alignment bolt over another? There seems to be lots of options available online. Moog and AC Delco being readily available on Amazon

Indeed, the eccentrics force themselves against the tabs on the frame, which in turn force the control arm in or out depending on which way you're turning the bolt. And no, once the bolts are torqued bolt torque keeps the arm stationary. As far as brand, either Moog or AC Delco are good brands. My personal experience with mostly newer GM stuff is that Napa eccentric cam and bolt kits are made out of butter; rounded a bunch of them out, so with those I go with GM O.E if I can get it. Not sure that's an option for yours though.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

The wonderful stories of Firestone Stores! I avoid those places like the plague. You would have been better off going to the Ford dealership.

A good Ford front end tech can adjust the front end of a Ford that SHOULD have the kit on it. They have done so many of them and they're masters with their pry bars.
The kit makes it so much easier to align.

 

[jagdriver727]

I’ve recently done some front end work on that vintage F-150.

Look, if the bolts are cheap, then just get them and make the truck easier for the next tech.

A good Ford front end tech can adjust the front end of a Ford that SHOULD have the kit on it. They have done so many of them and they're masters with their pry bars.
The kit makes it so much easier to align.

^^
I've aligned many Ford trucks with and without eccentric bolts, while it can be done with the factory bolts the eccentrics make it quick and easy.
With how inexpensive the bolts are, I see no reason not to swap them out.