FIRE Movement

Lots of people want to retire early because they have a stressful career / job and burned out. They are very unhappy and dread going to work. Lots of folks in the USA are like this.

Luckily I planned ahead and have no worries if I was downsized in mass layoff or if I just decided it was time to end my career.
 
WFH makes me wish I had saved more and been that much closer to FI! Still. Between “getting my money back” from SS and waiting for Medicare when I hit (65?) means my best guess to the future is to work until I’m at least 60 (401k maturity is 59.5 and I’ll have over 35 years into SS then), if not 65. But if I had to coast those last few years due to saving earlier in life, maybe I’ll be FI all the same.

I kinda like my expensive house (about median for the state), the older I get the less I like leaving home for travel and whatnot. Seems a fair trade. But not for everyone it seems.
 
I think some have the idea that FIRE is to live on beans and rice to squirrel away every dime so you can invest it and quit working as soon as possible. Retirement is all about goals and figuring out what "retirement" for you looks. Some retire and never come back to work. I know others at our company who retired and came back after a year because they missed work. I don't think living your 20s/30s/40s in a miser mindset only to retire and then be bored is a wise plan.

Every dollar of your income should go into 3 categories - spending, saving and giving. It's just as important to spend money as to save it and perhaps most import is to give money. Giving away a fair % of your income pays higher dividends to you as a human than a slightly fatter 401k. If the % of your income toward saving is out out of balance with spending and giving you will become scrooge and whatever you save with never be "enough". Many folks start with giving away 10% of their income before taxes - I think its a good start. Yes, it "hurts" at first, but that's the point. Eventually you'll likely want to give away more.

I think true FIRE is not owing anybody any money (car payments, student loans, credit card, mortgage, etc) and earning money in a job/passion that you don't mind waking up for every day and being able to be super generous with your money which will bring you much joy.
 
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2. Leaving a legacy for your family: this one is personal, but to me retiring early and having my money last me through the end of my life is not success but failure...I want to help my children, grand children, and ideally great grand children with buying homes, going to school, and be able to leave an inheritance when I die. IMO, it's selfish just to think about you and your life sitting on a beach rotting away for your last 30 years.
I have never believed that I am obliged to leave anything to anyone upon my death, especially my immediate family. I want them to learn to make their own way the same way I did. I bought all of my cars, paid my way through college......the whole shebang. I concede this is more difficult for today's young generation. I.E., I worked one year post high school (1974) in a steel mill for big$$ = 100% college tuition.

Having said that, we have helped our children and grand children in very small ways while we are still living and can enjoy the results. For instance, our grand daughter really enjoyed and excelled playing violin - we helped pay for lessons and a violin upgrade. We have always donated our time and other resources to help others over the decades too (Not Ebeneezer Scrooge ).

Selfish to enjoy spending my hard earned money during retirement? Ha!
 
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1 - Health care costs can be astronomical. The #1 reason people go bankrupt in this country is suffering a major health calamity, and those people have insurance. They max out. This is a tough one.
2 - If you are lucky enough to have money to help family, friends and other groups, perhaps do it now. Why wait until you die? What if they need it now? My personal preferences are education and cars. Cars can include service and training, among others. But generally if the car is a gift, it has to be in support of something like education or work. I plan on leaving local public colleges something. Importantly, urging people to earn their own way is the goal of helping. There has to be a reason for the gift. Computers for school are my favorite.
3 - There are all kinds of work. Do the dishes is a good one. Each to his or her own, but I am happier when I am productive. I may be wrong, but laziness tends to lead to misery.

That's my 2 cents. Want your money back?
 
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1 - Health care costs can be astronomical. The #1 reason people go bankrupt in this country is suffering a major health calamity, and those people have insurance. They max out. This is a tough one.


Yep.

I had a relative in the hospital, 2 surgeries and rehab for 3 months.... total medical bills was $3.3M
 
1 - Health care costs can be astronomical. The #1 reason people go bankrupt in this country is suffering a major health calamity, and those people have insurance. They max out. This is a tough one.
2 - If you are lucky enough to have money to help family, friends and other groups, perhaps do it now. Why wait until you die? What if they need it now? My personal preferences are education and cars. Cars can include service and training, among others. But generally if the car is a gift, it has to be in support of something like education or work. I plan on leaving local public colleges something. Importantly, urging people to earn their own way is the goal of helping. There has to be a reason for the gift. Computers for school are my favorite.
3 - There are all kinds of work. Do the dishes is a good one. Each to his or her own, but I am happier when I am productive. I may be wrong, but laziness tends to lead to misery.

That's my 2 cents. Want your money back?
From my understanding only: #1 cause of bankruptcy in middle class is health related, then #1 cause for rich people to go bankrupt (or lose a majority of what they have) is bad investment / not diversify in products they don't understand, or leverage debt to invest then lost. #1 for the poor to stay poor is typically addiction of some sort (gambling, alcohol, drug).

I know people who sell investment product as insurance agents. They usually don't understand how their funds make money to pay for the historical return they give out, or how much of the expense ratio is needed to pay for their teams' commission.
 
Health insurance purchased on the open market for a family is likely to be the killer expense for those wanting to retire at 40 or earlier.

It is difficult enough for someone retiring at say 65 to estimate the money they will need for the next 25 or more years. It is far more difficult than that to estimate the money they will need for the next 50 or more years assuming you are planning to retire at a ripe old age.
 
You need a stream of income well before you retire. Stocks for growth and dividends as well as rental property income a part time job to bring in some extra hobby money etc. Not all the Eggs is one basket. Also a low cost of living is a must and the cost would depend on the income you are able to produce. Some one bringing in $70,000.00 per year Vs $4,000,000.00 has to have a lower cost of living.
 
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Health insurance purchased on the open market for a family is likely to be the killer expense for those wanting to retire at 40 or earlier.

It is difficult enough for someone retiring at say 65 to estimate the money they will need for the next 25 or more years. It is far more difficult than that to estimate the money they will need for the next 50 or more years assuming you are planning to retire at a ripe old age.
Many FIRE plans actually involve retiring outside of the US.
 
Heterodoxy from a millennial. Before getting too 'FIREd' up about this scheme. Better consult an oracle for a view of the future. The economic/social climate here might not permit real retirements.

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Too late for me I retired from my job at 48 years old which I shouldn't have because actually it was pretty fun. That was the year 2000
 
Health insurance purchased on the open market for a family is likely to be the killer expense for those wanting to retire at 40 or earlier.

It is difficult enough for someone retiring at say 65 to estimate the money they will need for the next 25 or more years. It is far more difficult than that to estimate the money they will need for the next 50 or more years assuming you are planning to retire at a ripe old age.
Well there are some basics such your pre-retirement income. Estimates are that you only need 70-80% of that as you won't have work related expenses. Then to replace that income stream you shouldn't withdraw more than 4% of your assets. If you did more than that, it might not last the rest of your life but it's always possible to do so with less as you get closer to 65 as that's when health insurance costs will decrease and you can tap into social security between 62-70. Considering that the S&P 500 has returned about 11% over the last 30 years, 4% is very conservative, but you could end up with a lost decade and you probably don't want to invest it as aggressively at retirement age.
 
Well there are some basics such your pre-retirement income. Estimates are that you only need 70-80% of that
Wasn’t SS supposed to replace 40% of ones income, I‘m presuming if not taking it early? If so then one would only “need“ their 4% withdrawal to make up 40% of their income just prior to retirement. Since one no longer needs to save for retirement, the 10-20% they had been saving stops, and it could be nearly the same income. Ah, now I see how they came up with that 10x your salary saved up-25 times 40%, makes sense.
 
Wasn’t SS supposed to replace 40% of ones income, I‘m presuming if not taking it early? If so then one would only “need“ their 4% withdrawal to make up 40% of their income just prior to retirement. Since one no longer needs to save for retirement, the 10-20% they had been saving stops, and it could be nearly the same income. Ah, now I see how they came up with that 10x your salary saved up-25 times 40%, makes sense.
The way I see SS's future is it will get inflated away both in the tax cap and the withdraw amount. So in the end they can afford to not go bankrupt, and by the time I retire it would be nothing more than a token amount (in HK we call these everyone qualifies senior handout a "fruit money" because it is good for buying you some fruits but not a meal or pay your rent).
 
There seems to be a possible missunderstanding about the 4% withdrawal rule of thumb. The number was supposed to be a starting point at the time of retirement, subsequently adjusted for inflation, for funds to last at least 30 years with a very high level of confidence. A stock to bond ratio of 60/40% was assumed. Market returns for 75 years were used to derive the number.
So if you retire at 60 with $1M, the first year you could withdraw $40k per the guideline. If you had 5% inflation, the next year you would withdraw $42k regardless of the balance of your account. Each subsequent year adjust for actual inflation.

Numbers were designed to not let you run out of money in the worst case scenario, which would be an overpriced market that crashed just after retiring, combined with periods of high inflation. Under most non worst case scenarios, you would end up with a lot more money when you kicked the bucket at your planned age of 90 than you started with.

There are a number of things you could do to have a safe withdrawal rate that is significantly higher. Have a higher % of stocks since their average returns are much better than bonds. Have a bucket of cash or cash equivalents so you can draw from that without selling stocks to fund your spending in a down market. Probably the biggest is adjust your spending - more red beans and rice with long walks if the market is way down, travel and other luxuries if it's up.
 
I like you thoughts they are very introspective and your values are very high. Did your parents, relatives or Friends instill those great values?
1] Health care is costly Hopefully you [we] can afford insurance or are an illegal alien or on welfare.
2] Leaving a legacy is so un selfish. It is easier to buy the blo and hookers or the car or boat you can't really afford to bring instant pleasure.
3] The Value of work.. Most people work for money which is important but there is a value on work that took me a very long time to realize its value and is not appreciated,. For example there are a bunch of huge dairies around where I live and I speak to the owners and workers . one was at retirement age and was wondering whether he should retire early but he liked what he was doing. I responded you have an most important job, ,you grow food for people. My opinion after 68 years of life is everyone's work is really important.
Listen buddy, IF you are in this country without papers, YOU DO NOT GET WELFARE !!. Facts the USA is the worst developed country at providing health care !! We the People, great idea, fails in reality. Politicians always Owe favors, from all parties. I am 74 and always valued work instilled in me by my Father and Mother back when I was born in England !!. Sorry I know BITOG frowns on politics but these are actual facts !!
 
What a stupid topic.

FIRE is about folks getting rich selling eBooks to people wanting to “fire”.

If you want to scrounge and save go ahead but the current investment environment at best will punish you.

I have always saved much of my income but due to failures of mandatory investments outside my purview it will be a while before I can retire comfortably as my investment growth rate tracks about 4% interest in stocks. I had CDs that did better than that up through 3 years ago.

If I didn’t care I could retire tomorrow but I rather have a decent safety net than a live in Paraguay eating rice and beans retirement.
 
I like you thoughts they are very introspective and your values are very high. Did your parents, relatives or Friends instill those great values?
1] Health care is costly Hopefully you [we] can afford insurance or are an illegal alien or on welfare.
2] Leaving a legacy is so un selfish. It is easier to buy the blo and hookers or the car or boat you can't really afford to bring instant pleasure.
3] The Value of work.. Most people work for money which is important but there is a value on work that took me a very long time to realize its value and is not appreciated,. For example there are a bunch of huge dairies around where I live and I speak to the owners and workers . one was at retirement age and was wondering whether he should retire early but he liked what he was doing. I responded you have an most important job, ,you grow food for people. My opinion after 68 years of life is everyone's work is really important.
1) We get what we elected for and what we deserved. So far we have a polarized view of whether we want to tax ourselves to pay for a "everyone is covered" system or a "we need to take care of ourselves" system. People don't die just because they cannot afford healthcare these days. If not Federal paid, State will pay, and if not State paid, Local will pay for via increase medical cost to cover uninsured people (there are many uninsured US citizens out there, especially those part time worker and gig workers). If we want to change we will, but so far the poll says most Americans think it is what it is and we want it as is right now.

2) I am not sure what you are trying to say, but I assume you means it is easy to leave a legacy and we should not waste money on hookers and blow or toys? You can practice what you believe, that's cool with me, I'm happy for you. However I personally see "leaving a legacy" a personal choice and other people may think my "legacy" as being selfish or damaging to the society. What if I want to be a rum runner (or a prostitution ring leader), get rich, then let my children become the president of the US? Is that a good legacy or bad? What if I want to trade heroine / cocaine / opium and then becomes the biggest charity contributor in the world? Is that a good or bad legacy?

3) I want to automate as many jobs out there into extinction as I can. Imagine everyone can get things done using computer and AI and nobody need to work anymore? Imagine everyone is also unemployed at the same time? How cool would that be? and how both good and evil would my value of work be? If that's not good how about if I want to build the biggest bomb out there so I can blow up as many targets as I can? I'm sure Vlad and Dimitri in Russia would also have the same dream and put in just as much value in their work as I would be in the US, and we will both advance technologies in our civilization just like how we have invented nuclear weapon and nuclear power plants......


See, I think you get my sarcasm. I just want to have as much fun and be happy as the other guy, hopefully leave behind a house or two for each kid after I pass away, so they can continue. I'm a simple man, if anything is left I'll do something I feel is good and not damage other people's lives.
 
What a stupid topic.

FIRE is about folks getting rich selling eBooks to people wanting to “fire”.

If you want to scrounge and save go ahead but the current investment environment at best will punish you.

I have always saved much of my income but due to failures of mandatory investments outside my purview it will be a while before I can retire comfortably as my investment growth rate tracks about 4% interest in stocks. I had CDs that did better than that up through 3 years ago.

If I didn’t care I could retire tomorrow but I rather have a decent safety net than a live in Paraguay eating rice and beans retirement.
Nah, everyone I talked to agree it is all about having the balls to say "FUI Quit" because you have the FU money in the bank.
 
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