Filling a gas-powered vehicle can still be cheaper than charging an electric one

[BMWTurboDzl]

The most practical and cheap solution is the ICE/Hybrid. We use less gas and braking recharges the battery, +; We don't run out of "electricity" down by the Hiawassee river. Our U.S. carbon footprint is only about 15% worldwide so we are not "saving the planet" by causing low income fellow Americans to choose between gas, utilities, or food by wrecking our economy with curtailment of our cheapest sources of energy.

Only 15%. well that's no 2 behind China at around 30%. 90 percent of the countries on the planet have emissions under 1 percent. In any case it's a little more complicated than that.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-largest-co2-importers-exporters

 

[dlundblad]

Not surprised.

Without going into too much detail privacy wise, I know of a lady with a Tesla who’s power bill went up so high, a separate meter had to be installed on the charger so energy consumption could be monitored.

 

[dlundblad]

What a dumb article.
But not surprising, given the news outlet.

It basically states that if you choose the absolute most expensive way to charge an EV then it's more expensive than an economical fill up of a hybrid.

Technically correct, but completely counter to demonstrated driver behavior in all but extreme circumstances.

Maybe a fair and balanced comparison would include something similar to several replies already stated in this thread with .02-.03 cents/kwh charge rates. Likely too much to ask for from the authors though.

Please spare us.

We can go on and on about the folks you likely call “news” so just sit down, sir.

User name checks out.

Your first post in this thread checks out.

Now that we are on with personal insults so let’s assume you have nothing more to add to the conversation.

 

[FZ1]

Only 15%. well that's no 2 behind China at around 30%. 90 percent of the countries on the planet have emissions under 1 percent. In any case it's a little more complicated than that.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-largest-co2-importers-exporters

Not complicated for me, lol. 15% is 15%.

 

[simple_gifts]

In 40 years an ICE car will be analogous to this; a contraption no one knows how to fix and no one wants to use.

We should start a thread about how computers were more complex and expensive to use than the old NCR/Sweda j/k

 

[Imp4]

Please spare us.

We can go on and on about the folks you likely call “news” so just sit down sir

Critical thinking requires one to assess the facts, assess their applicability given the circumstances, and draw conclusions based on those assessments.

The article headline, while technically correct, requires one to analyze EV charging costs based on the absolute highest market price while simultaneously selecting a hybrid vehicle cost at a very reasonable middle ground price.

The comparison is flawed. Reasonable critical analysis demonstrates this clearly. And yet the apologists jump on the bandwagon of 'see... see... it's not always a perfect solution '.
Of course it's not always perfect. But reasonable people can be darn sure that in the preponderance of circumstances, EV's are cheaper to recharge than ICEs are to refuel on a cost per mile basis.

Bang your drums, block your ears, jump up and down. It doesn't change the truth that for most folks EV charging is cheap, cheap, cheap.

That's fair and balanced.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Grew up in a little town called Evanston, Wyoming and my dad always dreaded the day that electric cars would come out. Of course we have the cleanest coal in Wyoming but nobody seems to notice or care. Will wait for the time when people finally realize that there is an abundance of resources in North America not being utilized because of optics of what people think or "feel" works. God help us.

 

[GON]

Grew up in a little town called Evanston, Wyoming and my dad always dreaded the day that electric cars would come out. Of course we have the cleanest coal in Wyoming but nobody seems to notice or care. Will wait for the time when people finally realize that there is an abundance of resources in North America not being utilized because of optics of what people think or "feel" works. God help us.

I have been to and through Evanston, WY many times. Your Dad is likely spot on. Lots of solutions to transportation needs for Americans' that don't include electric vehicles.

I can't think of many worse places on a major interstate (I80) to demonstrate electric vehicles are not the answer for many Americans than Evanston, WY (from October through April).

 

[OVERKILL]

It is a legitimate action to question and verify, validate, and accredit the REAL LIFE cost of fueling electric vehicles. Electric may be free for some via solar, etc. I sense that free solar has limitations, and likely not readily available to the masses.

I speculate the only way to increase on-demand, predictable electrical generation in the USA over the next two decades on a macro level is by fossil fuels. Nuclear is likely the answer, but the USA is decades away if it wants to build additional nuclear plants.

An increase is fossil fuel costs will result in a increase in on-demand electrical costs for most Americans. The increase may not be immediately passed on to consumers because of regulations, but in the end the increase of fossil fuel costs will hit the pockets of the vast majority of consumers purchasing on demand electricity.

But solar isn't "free" either, you have a major capital investment that you need to depreciate and has a limited lifespan itself. The cost of solar is often artificially depressed as well though using FIT's or REC's.

 

[Gokhan]

It is a legitimate action to question and verify, validate, and accredit the REAL LIFE cost of fueling electric vehicles. Electric may be free for some via solar, etc. I sense that free solar has limitations, and likely not readily available to the masses.

I speculate the only way to increase on-demand, predictable electrical generation in the USA over the next two decades on a macro level is by fossil fuels. Nuclear is likely the answer, but the USA is decades away if it wants to build additional nuclear plants.

An increase is fossil fuel costs will result in a increase in on-demand electrical costs for most Americans. The increase may not be immediately passed on to consumers because of regulations, but in the end the increase of fossil fuel costs will hit the pockets of the vast majority of consumers purchasing on demand electricity.

For most people and most EVs, you will see substantial savings in fuel costs with an EV over an ICE vehicle. I estimate the ratio as about 3X on the average.

That said, a couple of years ago when the gas was $3 a gallon in California, I didn't see much savings in the EV mode, and it could even be that it was cheaper to run it with gas. However, my car can get 80 mpg on gas, which is more than three times the gas mileage of a typical car, and it is an exception. Even with a gas mileage like that, currently, gas driving is 50% more expensive. Again, over a typical car, savings are like 3X.

All that said, EVs are not for everyone. You probably don't want one if you live in an apartment or condo where you cannot charge it overnight. Moreover, they still tend to be more expensive. Nevertheless, things are evolving quickly, and EVs will get cheaper and charging will get faster without damaging the battery. Other problems that need to resolved are battery recycling and power-grid capabilities. Battery safety needs to be improved as well. In a decade, things will look a lot different, when self-driving EVs become mainstream.

 

[Gokhan]

It's like this-neither side is telling the truth. Just want you want to hear-

I like the daytime coverage of Fox News better than CNN and tune to it. However, as soon as Jesse Watters and the gang arrive, followed by other opinion hosts, it turns into fanaticism and becomes painful to watch. It's actually worse than preaching to the choir—it's more like a crazy guy getting on metro, standing in front of people and shouting at them on how the end is near and they will all go to hell unless they listen to him and do what he says. If you like that kind of stuff, yeah, stay tuned.

 

[CKN]

I like the daytime coverage of Fox News better than CNN and tune to it. However, as soon as Jesse Watters and the gang arrive, followed by other opinion hosts, it turns into fanaticism and becomes painful to watch. It's actually worse than preaching to the choir—it's more like a crazy guy getting on metro, standing in front of people and shouting at them on how the end is near and they will all go to hell unless they listen to him and do what he says. If you like that kind of stuff, yeah, stay tuned.

I have been watching CNN because they actually have people on the ground in the Ukraine-where FOX has talking heads pontification with no one actually on the ground. But yeah-I hear the fanaticism.

 

[FZ1]

It's like this-neither side is telling the truth. Just want you want to hear- Read

Gokhan posts above for someone who actually knows what they are talking about.​

O.K. Thanks for clearing that all up. btw I like G.'s posts.

 

[AZjeff]

Also of note, Grid to Wheel efficiency is 59 to 61%. (not including regeneration) (as regeneration is not used in many situations, such as highway or coasting to a stop)

Does regeneration really add any meaningful charge back into the batteries? TFL Truck tested the Rivian on their toughest towing test and on the big downhill it held the 8000 lb load the whole way down with regeneration active (no brakes) and gained 4 miles of range. Seems really low.

 

[FZ1]

Does regeneration really add any meaningful charge back into the batteries? TFL Truck tested the Rivian on their toughest towing test and on the big downhill it held the 8000 lb load the whole way down with regeneration active (no brakes) and gained 4 miles of range. Seems really low.

Guess so. Toyota website. Camry 2.5 28/39......Camry Hybrid 51/53

 

[CKN]

Does regeneration really add any meaningful charge back into the batteries? TFL Truck tested the Rivian on their toughest towing test and on the big downhill it held the 8000 lb load the whole way down with regeneration active (no brakes) and gained 4 miles of range. Seems really low.

It's not substantial-but the "energy" is there. Why not capture it?

 

[Gokhan]

I have been watching CNN because they actually have people on the ground in the Ukraine-where FOX has talking heads pontification with no one actually on the ground. But yeah-I hear the fanaticism.

To be fair, Fox News has a lot of people on the ground in Ukraine as well, and I found its coverage to be rather good. Perhaps they didn't have them immediately, but certainly they did later. I know Clarissa Ward of CNN goes everywhere where there is a war. Hopefully, she manages to stay safe.

If Fox News got rid of a few of its fanatic hosts, it would be a much more successful channel.

 

[Gokhan]

Does regeneration really add any meaningful charge back into the batteries? TFL Truck tested the Rivian on their toughest towing test and on the big downhill it held the 8000 lb load the whole way down with regeneration active (no brakes) and gained 4 miles of range. Seems really low.

Regeneration is the key for HVs and EVs. It is very efficient. If friction brakes are not applied, the round-trip efficiency should be 80% or perhaps higher, meaning you regain most of what you lose. There is a limit on how much current the battery can take during regeneration, which is around 3C for my car I believe, which means it would recharge the whole battery in 1/3 hours. However, this is sufficient for gentle braking or gentle slopes. Beyond that, friction brakes kick in. With more advanced battery technologies, we should see 10C or higher regenerative braking capability and friction brakes would hardly ever be used. With my gentle driving, my friction brakes are almost never used. This also saves a lot of money in brake maintenance. Depending on your driving style, your pads an disks may last for a lifetime with an HV or EV.

 

[FZ1]

Regeneration is the key for HVs and EVs. It is very efficient. If friction brakes are not applied, the round-trip efficiency should be 80% or perhaps higher, meaning you regain most of what you lose. There is a limit on how much current the battery can take during regeneration, which is around 3C for my car I believe, which means it would recharge the whole battery in 1/3 hours. However, this is sufficient for gentle braking or gentle slopes. Beyond that, friction brakes kick in. With more advanced battery technologies, we should see 10C or higher regenerative braking capability and friction brakes would hardly ever be used. With my gentle driving, my friction brakes are almost never used. This also saves a lot of money in brake maintenance. Depending on your driving style, your pads an disks may last for a lifetime with an HV or EV.

Interesting. Thanks, man.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Not complicated for me, lol. 15% is 15%.

Not complicated for me, lol. 15% is 15%.

you do know that makes the US one of the highest on per capita basis as well?