Fill to vehicle spec or tire spec?

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Originally Posted By: TacticalDriver
Just out of curiosity...do you have any idea how many PSI one can pump in a modern radial tire before it explodes?

Did you ever performed a such test or do you know anyone that did?


One of the scariest things I ever saw was how stupid people could be with compressed air.

In 1987, I worked in a garage, where the head mechanic had hopped up the compressor a little (still safe, but 120psi)

Would oft hear a bang, and look up to see a cloud of white powder, as a cyclist burst his tyres, running air in until it stopped running - eg ten speed racers with 90psi sidewall ratings.

One day an Indian bloke came in and asked me to look at his car, as it was riding harsh after he pumped the tyres up yesterday.

As I walked out, the car looked like a matchbox car, almost no flattening on the bottoms...as we got closer, I asked how many PSI he put in.

"Pardon ?"

"Did you run air in until it stopped running ?"

"Yes of course".

I pulled all the cores so that I spent as little time next to the tyre as possible...all of 120psi in the tyres.
 
Originally Posted By: TacticalDriver
.......Now, the question is... If a tire's bursting point is over 250 PSI (280 to be more precise), why would I ride it at 32 PSI?!?


Because bursting a tire is a single loading event, where tires are subjected to cyclic loading, so the principle of fatigue applies - so you don't want to use any more than 20% to 25% of the burst pressure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)

By the way, that was a truck tire designed to operate around 100 psi, not a passenger car tire that is designed to operate up to 35 psi.
 
Filling a tire to its bursting point under the conditions of just being inflated proves little. As was pointed out, that is a static load that does little to represent the actual operation of a tire. Consider the fact the tire is deformed by the ground contact patch and by all sorts of shock loadings from uneven roadway surfaces. All while rotaing around.

Do we really think that we know better than the tire engineers who designed the tire and marked it with max pressures? I wouldn't want to be anywhere close to a tire overinlfated above the recommended max pressures. We had a family member lost in an accident when mounting truck tires. I wonder sometimes if people actually realize the danger that compressed air vessels as simple as a tire can actually pose...
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
But interestingly enough in rpn453's example, the load capacity of 255/35/19 is actually smaller than 245/40/18, unless the 255/35/19 is XL-rated.


I'd guess they're probably nowhere near max load anyway. The pressures I listed are the minimums, for a driver only. At GVWR, Audi recommends 41 psi all around for both sizes. Now that's a proper tire inflation recommendation! How could there be one ideal pressure for all possible vehicle loads?

He'll be doing his first track day with that car this weekend. We'll probably try something in the range of 38/35 to 41/38 as a starting point. That's too high for street use while empty though, IMO.
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: TacticalDriver
.......Now, the question is... If a tire's bursting point is over 250 PSI (280 to be more precise), why would I ride it at 32 PSI?!?


Because bursting a tire is a single loading event, where tires are subjected to cyclic loading, so the principle of fatique applies - so you don't want to use any more than 20% to 25% of the burst pressure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)


The link you pointed out refers to the Metal Fatigue not rubber/tires.

As far as I am concerned, tire fatigue refers to the chemical oxidation, and implicitly degradation of the cord-rubber system and have very little to do (if anything at all) with the tire pressure.

Tire fatigue and tire deterioration are two different things.

Can you please let me know where it says that a tire suppose to be used only 20%-25% of the burst pressure? This is the first time I got acquainted with this theory (requirement)


Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
By the way, that was a truck tire designed to operate around 100 psi, not a passenger car tire that is designed to operate up to 35 psi.


How can you tell it was a truck tire as oppose to a passenger tire?
 
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
Filling a tire to its bursting point under the conditions of just being inflated proves little. As was pointed out, that is a static load that does little to represent the actual operation of a tire. Consider the fact the tire is deformed by the ground contact patch and by all sorts of shock loadings from uneven roadway surfaces. All while rotaing around.

You just gave me an idea; of inflating the tire to the bursting point mounted on the car (Crown Vic- about 4000Lbs)

Originally Posted By: MNgopher
Do we really think that we know better than the tire engineers who designed the tire and marked it with max pressures? I wouldn't want to be anywhere close to a tire overinlfated above the recommended max pressures. We had a family member lost in an accident when mounting truck tires. I wonder sometimes if people actually realize the danger that compressed air vessels as simple as a tire can actually pose...

I believe we do not know tires better than a tire engineer, but I do believe that the tire engineer represents the economical interest of his company (the tire manufacturer) and not mine or yours.

The question is..."Does the tire manufacturer wants you to get the most (millage)possible out of a set of tires or he wants you to change them as often as possible?"

"Does the oil industry want you to use the optimal setting on your tire so that you use as less gas as possible, or he wants you to fill up as often as possible?"

"You have a 500 miles trip ahead of you. You have all your family in the car. Do you want a comfortable ride or a safe one?"
 
Originally Posted By: TacticalDriver
"You have a 500 miles trip ahead of you. You have all your family in the car. Do you want a comfortable ride or a safe one?"

To me, both comfortable and safe would be to follow what's on the vehicle placard for the given load (if it's a whole family of passengers, there is appropriate PSI envisioned for that).

I guess it varies from car to car, but whenever I tried running PSI that was higher than what was specified in the owner's manual, I ended up with unevenly worn tires - center of tread would wear out before the sides, not to mention comfort suffered. So, no thanks.
 
There is a safe and comfortable pressure provided to you by the vehicle manufacturer. There are sometimes valid reasons for varying around that pressure within the safe limits established by the tire manufacturer.

If you do not understand how fatigue can affect a tire based on pressure, I don't believe there is much more to add to the conversation.

I'll end my participation here again indicating the best advice is to stay within the recommended limits.
 
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
There is a safe and comfortable pressure provided to you by the vehicle manufacturer. There are sometimes valid reasons for varying around that pressure within the safe limits established by the tire manufacturer.


I'll end my participation here again indicating the best advice is to stay within the recommended limits.


My friend, oxygen, moisture and heat are the contributive factors to the tire fatigue. Tire inflation is not.
Running on low PSI (under-inflated) does not destroy the tire but the resulting heat that modifies the molecules used to create the liners and the insulation rubber adjacent the liner meant to keep air from percolating.
The deteriorated rubber molecules start to lose the strength and implicitly their elasticity, until no longer have rubber characteristics but of a non rigid plastic.

That's when the tire deflates, and the deflation rate largely depends on the above mentioned state of degradation.

There is not such a thing as tire explosion but sudden loss of air.

Originally Posted By: MNgopher
If you do not understand how fatigue can affect a tire based on pressure, I don't believe there is much more to add to the conversation.

I do happen to understand the concept of tire fatigue, but apparently we have different opinions as what the tire fatigue is caused by. Sorry to say it but this is a "My way or the highway" attitude and under no circumstances is neither constructive nor mature

All the best!
 
Tactical Driver,

First, the link I provided is for MATERIAL fatigue. Fatigue applies to ALL structural materials, including rubber. It's just that there are many really good examples from the metal working industry - and in fact, that is where the first discoveries of fatigue were made. The principles are the same regardless of the material in question.

No, rubber fatigue is not chemical deterioration. It is a Physics phenomenon. Chemical deterioration does indeed take place in rubber - and it is both heat and age related - and it will affect the point of failure and the mode of failure. But fatigue also plays a role in both when the failure takes place, what part of the tire fails, and when it takes place. To say this is complex just scratches the surface the problem.

How do I know it is a truck tire? The smarta$$ answer is: Anyone who has been in the tire business as long as I have been will be able to tell that.

But the evidence is that the rim is a truck type rim. It has a large amount of offset and a 15° bead taper - which was never used in passenger car tires and hasn't been supplied OE for light trucks for over 20 years. The rim is a steel rim (not aluminum alloy) with a spider configuration common for truck type rims. Further, the tire has a deeper tread depth than is used in either passenger car tires and light truck tires. It has a high aspect ratio (on the order of 85%), which precludes it being a passenger car tire.

20% to 25% of the burst? Well, the sidewall of tires will give a maximum inflation pressure - and since the burst pressure is NOT a specification, you would need to know what the burst pressure is of the particular tire under study. I've done the calculation for the strength of the sidewall plies as part of a training exercise when I first started in the business - and while I forget the exact value of the factor used in the calculation (and it would be a trade secret for every company), there is indeed a factor.

You can work this out yourself, by looking at the SN curve in the link I provided. While the curve in the Wikipedia article is for aluminum, SN curves are similar for most materials. Just an FYI, 50,000 miles is on the order to 10 million cycles, so you have to compare the value at 10 milllion cycles to the value for a single cycle (the largest value). If you do that, you'll get a fatigue break point in the vicinity of 1/4 to 1/5 of the single cycle value.

And your point about loyalty to a company's position? When I am representing the company, I am careful about what I say, but I can explain where all this comes from:

http://www.barrystiretech.com/

Start with "Tire Standardizing Organizations", and follow that up with "Tire Load Tables". The load tables are published by these organizations and all the tire manufacturers follow those - in fact, their representatives sit on the committes that are the source for these tables. It is these tables that define the load vs inflation pressure conditions for the various types of tires.

It turns out that the burst pressure of a given tire is an artfact of what is needed to prevent a fatigue type failure. The company I work for has discontued bursting tires because it tells them nothing of real value. They have charts that specify the strength needed in a tire and are based on DECADES of experience and testing.

So I am NOT parroting a company position. I am showing you the sources of the engineering principles used to design tires.

And lastly, tires do more than just consume fuel. They provide grip and a comfortable ride. They are required to provide directional stability and long wear properties (some better than others!) ALL these things have to be considered when we talk about the affects of inflation pressure.

If there is a conspiracy going on, it's that the tire manufacturers are providing a source document for the vehicle engineers to use - and both groups have agreed to abide by those documents. The tire manufacturers are then free to design tires based on those documents and the vehicle manufacturers are then free to design vehicles basded on those documents.

If a vehicle manufacturer wants to change the way tires are designed, all they have to do is petition the tire standardizing organizations for a different set of standards - just like they've done in the past. The standards are constantly being revised to reflect the needs and desires of vehicle manufacturers. That's why the standards are published yearly - to provide updated information to anyone who wants it.

The current standard (and I'm referring to the passenger car tire load tables) have been in place since the late 1970's - over 40 years. It is quite possible to replace that standard with another one that takes advantage of the improved fuel economy that higher inflation pressures provide - BUT - that would result in a whole round of tire and vehicle redesign to accommodate that change. It's been done before and can be done again.

And to the point of burst pressure, any standard that increases the inflation pressure would also result in increased burst pressure - It's just they way the Physics works out!
 
I'm with Capri Racer on this whole discussion, see my original post...

Tactical Driver is advocating extreme pressures for extreme usage...in his application, which is not unlike taking your car to the track, it makes perfect sense...

But not for me and for the other 99.9% of the driving public.
 
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
Filling a tire beyond its rated pressure sounds like great advice. Not. I'm guessing there is a reason the manufacturer puts a max pressure rating on a tire.



The idea behind the 5-10 PSI over the side wall max recommended PSI is that you will get a far more precise steering and and not a cushy ride.
Although you get a smaller contact patch as a result, because of a higher friction (due to higher weight per sq inch), you don't loose any grip. As matter of fact you gain traction due to the fact that in hard cornering there would be less tire deformation. Generally speaking the mfg. specs. are family sedans oriented and are weighted towards a cushy drive over driving dynamics.
 
Originally Posted By: TacticalDriver
The idea behind the 5-10 PSI over the side wall max recommended PSI is that you will get a far more precise steering and and not a cushy ride.

Isn't that what different tire models/categories are for? If you want quicker response and not a cushy ride plus more grip, you buy a high performance summer tire. No need to go past the max PSI rating then.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: TacticalDriver
The idea behind the 5-10 PSI over the side wall max recommended PSI is that you will get a far more precise steering and and not a cushy ride.

Isn't that what different tire models/categories are for? If you want quicker response and not a cushy ride plus more grip, you buy a high performance summer tire. No need to go past the max PSI rating then.


Not everyone can afford several sets of tires, so that they can switch tires readily depending on what kind of driving experience they want on a particular day.
 
Thank you for sharing CapriRacer.


1)
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

If there is a conspiracy going on, it's that the tire manufacturers are providing a source document for the vehicle engineers to use - and both groups have agreed to abide by those documents. The tire manufacturers are then free to design tires based on those documents and the vehicle manufacturers are then free to design vehicles basded on those documents.




2)
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

If a vehicle manufacturer wants to change the way tires are designed, all they have to do is petition the tire standardizing organizations for a different set of standards - just like they've done in the past. The standards are constantly being revised to reflect the needs and desires of vehicle manufacturers. That's why the standards are published yearly - to provide updated information to anyone who wants it.



3)
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

The current standard (and I'm referring to the passenger car tire load tables) have been in place since the late 1970's - over 40 years. It is quite possible to replace that standard with another one that takes advantage of the improved fuel economy that higher inflation pressures provide - BUT - that would result in a whole round of tire and vehicle redesign to accommodate that change. It's been done before and can be done again.



4)
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

And to the point of burst pressure, any standard that increases the inflation pressure would also result in increased burst pressure - It's just they way the Physics works out!



So you all heard it straight from the horse's mouth.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14

Tactical Driver is advocating extreme pressures for extreme usage...


C'mon you guys.. .. 5-10 PSI over the sidewall Max PSI is not..."EXTREME".
 
Can you please explain this?

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

The standards are constantly being revised to reflect the needs and desires of vehicle manufacturers. That's why the standards are published yearly - to provide updated information to anyone who wants it.



Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

The current standard (and I'm referring to the passenger car tire load tables) have been in place since the late 1970's - over 40 years.



Are the standards updated every year or they are the same as 40 years ago?

Thank you!
 
Originally Posted By: TacticalDriver
Originally Posted By: Astro14

Tactical Driver is advocating extreme pressures for extreme usage...


C'mon you guys.. .. 5-10 PSI over the sidewall Max PSI is not..."EXTREME".

I had my Continental DWS at 48PSI, 3PSI below max 51PSI on sidewall, the car was very unstable at speed above 100 MPH with slight cross wind on the way to Vegas. The pressure was adjusted down to 42PSI on the way home and the car was much more stable even with stronger cross wind at speed above 100-110 MPH.

In local highway the performance/handling was best with tire pressure at around 38-40PSI front and 36-38PSI rear.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I had my Continental DWS at 48PSI, 3PSI below max 51PSI on sidewall, the car was very unstable at speed above 100 MPH with slight cross wind on the way to Vegas. The pressure was adjusted down to 42PSI on the way home and the car was much more stable even with stronger cross wind at speed above 100-110 MPH.


Whatever works for you. At normal highway speeds, there are probably a wide range of tire pressures that give reasonable performance. The faster you go, the more critical it is to tune the tire for what you're doing. Racing teams pay close attention to the pressure, and once they inflate the tire they keep it warm so that the pressure will be just right even on the first lap out of the pits.
 
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