Federal EV tax credit set to end completely September 30th

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UncleDave said:
I dislike all the subsides, but the playing field is miles from level.

Big oil and petroleum gets mega breaks in a variety of forms call them what you will.

It's a great question, why promote electric cars at all?

De-coupling Americas quality of life from being at the whim of middle Eastern despotic regimes would be at the top of my list.

Someone else dictates what the cost of liquid energy is not us.

We can control what electricity costs us with both nukes and solar - even coal if we had to. We've got 400 years of that in the ground.
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Ninety nine percent of legislation is written from lobbyist. Federal elected officials write almost no legislation.

So rather than ask about mega breaks for big oil, etc. The question to ask is who is the lobbyist writing the legislation. Next question is who is funding the lobbyist. And finally, who is providing campaign donations to grease the skids for the lobbyist submitted legislation.

Remember, tax credits, etc are an involuntarily transfer of money from American workers to a special interest group. There is no such thing as a tax credit, just a involuntarily tax on working Americans to a special interest.

Connect the dots...
 
SC Maintenance said:
You maybe don’t but others here do. So my beef wasn’t with you.

Regarding 179 I agree with you. No industry gets as many deals as the U.S. auto industry - right up to their outright bailout in 2008.

I am not defending IDC’s. But the difference is that if I drill a dry hole , or dig an empty mine - the money is gone. Making me take 39 years to depreciate it makes no sense. It’s worth zero now.

As for you I guarantee your accountants deduct all legitimate expenses for landing a new client. Why some things are deductible and some not - beyond my pay grade.

And no a tax deduction on actual expense is not a subsidy. As for the fifth fleet and other things that’s all well perpetuated lies. That was all about defending the dollar and not oil manufacturing. It put more oil companies out of business than anything. Hard to compete with Saudi when they have the fifth fleet.
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I totally get guys being hypocritical.

I understand your position, and we're mostly aligned.

If I spend X dollars trying land a client and lose the sale anyway how's that different?
My money is gone and I get no special deduction for that effort.

Its not so much the dry hole comparison that gets me is the wet hole.

Conversely if I "strike oil" and land the also finite account I dont get that break - why?
Because only the oil guys get that break. Its special.


FWIW I was part owner in a couple offsets for a while.
My friends in Texas asked a great question once.
" Do you have an oil well" to which I replied No.
"Get one" was the advice.
 
GON said:
Tj

Ninety nine percent of legislation is written from lobbyist. Federal elected officials write almost no legislation.

So rather than ask about mega breaks for big oil, etc. The question to ask is who is the lobbyist writing the legislation. Next question is who is funding the lobbyist. And finally, who is providing campaign donations to grease the skids for the lobbyist submitted legislation.

Remember, tax credits, etc are an involuntarily transfer of money from American workers to a special interest group. There is no such thing as a tax credit, just a tax of working Americans to a special interest.

Connect the dots...
Click to expand...

I totally get how big oil controls politics and our quality of life.

I dont like 3rd parties controlling our quality of life, but when we sell out we get what we deserve.
 
UncleDave said:
I totally get how big oil controls politics and our quality of life.

I dont like 3rd parties controlling our quality of life, but when we sell out we get what we deserve.
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I would revise your post to say how lobbyist controls politics and quality of life. Having oil, pharmaceuticals, medical licensing, cafe standards, etc is all irrelevant. Every piece of legislation is a result of a lobbyist paid for by a special interest. There are a very rare few exceptions like sexual predictor registrations, etc, but for the sake of this thread, every piece of passed legislation is by a lobbyist on behalf of a special interest.
 
UncleDave said:
I totally get guys being hypocritical.

I understand your position, and we're mostly aligned.

If I spend X dollars trying land a client and lose the sale anyway how's that different?
My money is gone and I get no special deduction for that effort.

Its not so much the dry hole comparison that gets me is the wet hole.

Conversely if I "strike oil" and land the also finite account I dont get that break - why?
Because only the oil guys get that break. Its special.


FWIW I was part owner in a couple offsets for a while.
My friends in Texas asked a great question once.
" Do you have an oil well" to which I replied No.
"Get one" was the advice.
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What sales costs can’t you deduct? Most are just normal business expenses. Yes there are rules against entertainment and stuff for obvious potentials for abuse.

On the IDC, the company deducts the hole - then if it’s producing oil that goes in their revenue and profit - which then gets spent drilling more holes or dispersed to shareholders and they pay income tax on it. There are weird rules around MLP’s but most oil is produced by regular public companies.
 
SC Maintenance said:
What sales costs can’t you deduct? Most are just normal business expenses. Yes there are rules against entertainment and stuff for obvious potentials for abuse.

On the IDC, the company deducts the hole - then if it’s producing oil that goes in their revenue and profit - which then gets spent drilling more holes or dispersed to shareholders and they pay income tax on it. There are weird rules around MLP’s but most oil is produced by regular public companies.
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Yes most are.

On the dry hole scenario this difference isnt as great.
I can only deduct a certain % of given cost against anything regardless of opportunity.
Until this year I had to expense R&D over 15 years
It might be down to IDC's on this side.

The wet hole or the landed deals where the big difference is.
I can take anything like a depletion allowance.
 
SC Maintenance said:
Articles? I can write any article I want.

Subsidies are law. Point me to one specific for the oil industry? All U.S. code of laws are published.
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That is not correct. Subsidies are generally legal, but that does not mean there is a specific law enabling a given subsidy.

Subsidies generally involve a complex network of laws and regulations at various levels of government. They are a common tool used by governments to influence economic activity and promote certain goals.
 
UncleDave said:
Yes most are.

On the dry hole scenario this difference isnt as great.
I can only deduct a certain % of given cost against anything regardless of opportunity.
Until this year I had to expense R&D over 15 years
It might be down to IDC's on this side.

The wet hole or the landed deals where the big difference is.
I can take anything like a depletion allowance.
Click to expand...
There are lots of special rules in the tax code, but while there names are unique the rules are far from it. Natural resource get IDC’s and depletion. Other industries get 179 and bonus depreciation. It’s not special just to oil.
 
UncleDave said:
You didn't answer my question, but I will yours.

The US EV industry got all kinds of stuff - some special , some totally regular. Ive never claimed they didnt.
I always hated the carbon credit thing - but EVERY US auto maker could have gotten it.
It was at least fair on that level.

I was never for the EV industry getting anything any regular manufacturing business did not.

My assertion is 7500 is a drop in bucket next to what the oil companies get and us automakers get from 179.

Why cant i get a depreciation allowance when I find a new client like an oil company finding a new well?

I may not gave technically found your definition of subsidy but I found lot of other unique benefits that just aren't called subsidies but are benefits none the less.

You are trying to pretend these bennies dont exist or even never existed.

I didn't pay a bribe when I wanted a brazillian visa in a reasonable time- I paid a process acceleration fee.

The two are basically the same.
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Because it's in the national interest to develop energy resources. It's really that simple. Everyone benefits from maintaining a consistent and reliable energy sector.
 
ripcord said:
Because it's in the national interest to develop energy resources. It's really that simple. Everyone benefits from maintaining a consistent and reliable energy sector.
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That's the purpose of subsidies; to benefit. Some have better results than others. I guess it just depends on which end of the deal you are on.

Full disclosure, I got a tax credit for out 2018 Model 3 but not on the new one. The tax credit played a role in the decision to buy. The car was the reason I bought the 2024 M3P. I can easily make a case against EV subsidies, among other things.

That does not make subsidies bad. Government has a role in funding projects that are too big for the private sector, or that many not offer an ROI within a relevant range.
 
Look at Tesla; the Fremont plant is the #1 plant in the US by vehicle deliveries. 25K workers with good paying jobs, paying taxes. Far more in supporting roles... An American success story! I support that.
GM failed. NUMMI (GM Toyota) failed.

Would it have happened with out the subsidies?
 
JeffKeryk said:
That's the purpose of subsidies; to benefit. Some have better results than others. I guess it just depends on which end of the deal you are on.

Full disclosure, I got a tax credit for out 2018 Model 3 but not on the new one. The tax credit played a role in the decision to buy. The car was the reason I bought the 2024 M3P. I can easily make a case against EV subsidies, among other things.

That does not make subsidies bad. Government has a role in funding projects that are too big for the private sector, or that many not offer an ROI within a relevant range.
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Whenever the discussion of EV subsidies come up the argument is always less about the EV subsidy and more about everything else PC. Like their green ( there really not). Or big oil is subsidized - it isn’t.

My contention is if we really wanted EV’s we would subsidize electricity and make it cheaper for everyone and everything. The U.S. has less electricity production now than it did decades ago. But instead we subsidize the auto OEM’s through tax credits and block there foreign competition in ways we do for no other industries.

Therefore I can only conclude it’s not at all about making electricity our transportation energy of choice. It’s about providing special favors?
 
SC Maintenance said:
Whenever the discussion of EV subsidies come up the argument is always less about the EV subsidy and more about everything else PC. Like their green ( there really not). Or big oil is subsidized - it isn’t.

My contention is if we really wanted EV’s we would subsidize electricity and make it cheaper for everyone and everything. The U.S. has less electricity production now than it did decades ago. But instead we subsidize the auto OEM’s through tax credits and block there foreign competition in ways we do for no other industries.

Therefore I can only conclude it’s not at all about making electricity our transportation energy of choice. It’s about providing special favors?
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Ironic isn't it? Here's something the go green guys often forget. Here in NY Con Ed cuts power back when they can't keep up with the demand for electric, like now with our recent heatwave. LOL and NY was pushing like crazy to go green. They have a hard time keeping people cool in heatwaves, imagine having more EVs than ICE vehicles? I find it hilarious, and stupid all mixed into one.
 
SC Maintenance said:
Whenever the discussion of EV subsidies come up the argument is always less about the EV subsidy and more about everything else PC. Like their green ( there really not). Or big oil is subsidized - it isn’t.

My contention is if we really wanted EV’s we would subsidize electricity and make it cheaper for everyone and everything. The U.S. has less electricity production now than it did decades ago. But instead we subsidize the auto OEM’s through tax credits and block there foreign competition in ways we do for no other industries.

Therefore I can only conclude it’s not at all about making electricity our transportation energy of choice. It’s about providing special favors?
Click to expand...
There is no EV subsidies. There is a involuntarily transfer of money from every single American working taxpayer to a tiny special interest group.

Further, the American working taxpayer is borrowing this money from Chinese peasants and the like. Unbelievable huge cost and liability for the American working taxpayer. All to accommodate a special interest, and nobody ever asks who is the special interest funding the lobbyist to take money involuntarily from every single American working taxpayer ?
 
GON said:
There is no EV subsidies. There is a involuntarily transfer of money from every single American working taxpayer to a tiny special interest group.

Further, the American working taxpayer is borrowing this money from Chinese peasants and the like. Unbelievable huge cost and liability for the American working taxpayer. All to accommodate a special interest, and nobody ever asks who is the special interest funding the lobbyist to take money involuntarily from every single American working taxpayer ?
Click to expand...

You are 100% correct and I want my taxes back.

EV craze was funded by 99% of taxpayer not interested in any EV.

*** Full Disclosure ***
I benefited from owning Tesla stock.
 
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