I covered IDC’s several pages back.
If you want them gone that’s fine. There not used solely by big oil. There essentially the same as EV manufacturers deducting R&D expenses to design EV’s. Different animal - not a subsidy.
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Federal EV tax credit set to end completely September 30th
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If you want them gone that’s fine. There not used solely by big oil. There essentially the same as EV manufacturers deducting R&D expenses to design EV’s. Different animal - not a subsidy.
How did the petro dollar benefit the U.S. oil industry? It made oil cheaper in dollar terms - well really made the dollar worth more. Same I guess. So no - cheaper oil hurts those producing oil.
It made long dangerous routes through hot spots much cheaper to insure.
Yes but that was mostly to the benefit of the middle eastern producers - and to Asia and Europe. Not to US oil producers.
Also the cheaper insurance benefited transport. Not oil producers. Very few oil companies ever operated their own shipping. Only the super majors and even them not long after Valdez.
Since the global price is by and large determined by the middle eastern producers it's in big oils interest to help control that cost.
Oi needs to be at a sweet spot price wise and stability has a lot to do with keeping it there.To low not enough money in the system to meet demand - to high demand wanes.
This is why we care so much when the saudis, or opec turn off the taps.
Otherwise why have the fleet parked there or pay for them at all?
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It will switch back and forth over the next years. The ev incentive has already done a lot to get people to notice and like electric propulsion,
and advance tech for electric. Maybe some don’t like it and some do, that’s their choice.
and advance tech for electric. Maybe some don’t like it and some do, that’s their choice.
What would a subsidy look like? Also,
Somewhere there’s a happy medium to all of this. Nobody in rural areas would have electricity if the government hadnt built the infrastructure, it wouldn’t be worth it for the power companies. Same with rural broadband. So theres a place for this sort of thing. I just think its an error to point out EVs as being wastes of gov money when we spend so much on petro-favored policy. Even bigger, I am suggesting that to pull the very modest ev subsidies that we have his handing the American auto industry to the Chinese, who have no qualms selling at a loss to run everything else out of business. Yesterday’s WSJ had a good article on it:
https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/...d?st=3QPowM&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Sorry about terrible formatting above. When I add pictures and links on my phone it always messes up.
modest?
Up to $11,500 per vehicle is modest?
Besides that, what’s the purpose of promoting electric vehicles at all?
If somebody wants one, let them buy one otherwise don’t waste taxpayer money
The playing field is level now.
I won’t pretend to have a perfect answer but I know what’s wrong when I see it.
A tax deduction that all can use to accelerate depreciation on a loss that you would otherwise be able to deduct anyway - whether it be drilling an oil well or digging a mine for rare earths or investing in R&D on EV battery tech at least makes some sense. Our tax code is too complex to begin with.
Paying the likes of Tesla and GM the functional equivalent of $7500 margin improvement doesn’t make sense.
I’ll turn it around. Why are we OK for China to take over our pharmaceutical industry on drugs people need to live, but we’re not ok with them taking over the EV industry. Why can’t I buy a CCP subsidized EV but I can buy CCP subsidized life saving drugs?
Yes but you’re mixing metaphors. Cheap oil and higher Saudi production hurts the U.S. oil industry.
Everything you’re saying we did to benefit the U.S. oil industry would be just like subsidizing Chinese EV manufacturers to import EV’s. Do you think that would be good for the U.S. EV industry?
You have it backwards. Making oil cheap was a negative subsidy to the oil industry.
I dislike all the subsides, but the playing field is miles from level.
Big oil and petroleum gets mega breaks in a variety of forms call them what you will.
It's a great question, why promote electric cars at all?
De-coupling Americas quality of life from being at the whim of middle Eastern despotic regimes would be at the top of my list.
Someone else dictates what the cost of liquid energy is not us.
We can control what electricity costs us with both nukes and solar - even coal if we had to. We've got 400 years of that in the ground.
Big oil and petroleum gets mega breaks in a variety of forms call them what you will.
It's a great question, why promote electric cars at all?
De-coupling Americas quality of life from being at the whim of middle Eastern despotic regimes would be at the top of my list.
Someone else dictates what the cost of liquid energy is not us.
We can control what electricity costs us with both nukes and solar - even coal if we had to. We've got 400 years of that in the ground.
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Im not saying cheap is better, Im saying stability and control is. Even implied stability issues send costs skyrocketing. This is why pump prices shoot up at the first hint of an availability issue even if it's only one tanker.
IF there was no benefit to parking the fleet in the straight why did we do it?
You cant separate the petrodollar from the pretoelum industry.
Im trying to understand your position - is it that the oil and petroleum industry never received any beneficial aid, taxation sections, industry specific deductions, or help from the US government in any way?
Ok but different topics. If we want to be cheap energy self sufficient why do we keep crushing public utilities yet hand money to wealthy people to buy EV’s to generate more electricity demand which raises the electricity cost for everyone?
None of which shows a subsidy to the oil industry which is always the accusation around here.
I dont believe we should have ever handed money to people to buy EV's I've been 100% consistent with that.
Who is crushing public utilities? I dont follow. If its demand that crushes them then stop building data centers, megamalls and new industry - they use way more power than EV's.
Im trying to understand your position - is it that the oil and petroleum industry never received any beneficial aid, taxation sections, industry specific deductions, or help from the US government in any way?
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Every time the EV subsidy comes up
Here the immediate accusation is that the oil industry is subsidized. It’s not. The government has spent decades destroying it. The petro dollar was not good for the oil industry. It was good for the U.S. dollar and the Saudis. I don’t know how you feel cheaper oil is good for oil producers. Would be like saying cheap Chinese EV’s are good for Tesla.
My position is facts matter and there is no oil subsidy. Rapid depreciation for spending real money drilling a dry well is not a subsidy. Anyone that has ever made a payroll understands this.
I also don’t like subsidies or the government picking winners or losers. Yes oil prices change daily. Most changes at the pump are retail games or refining - not crude oil. Technically electricity prices should change in real time throughout the day based on demand. Some companies pay these rates. At most retail customers pay peak or off peak.
Your position is that the oil industry gets no subsidy. Got it.
Is it also your position the oil industry gets no beneficial aid, taxation sections, industry specific deductions, or help from the US government in any way?
If they do these would also be facts, and matter.
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The EV industry also get those same other things like rapid depreciation on capex equipment. They also get carbon offsets and also special tax treatment just for themselves like commercial EV tax credits and tax credits for charging infrastructure. I haven’t even gotten into those.
The assertion is somehow the $7500 tax credit is equivalent to oil companies depreciating a dry hole.
Seems you can’t find any oil subsidies either?
You didn't answer my question, but I will yours.
The US EV industry got all kinds of stuff - some special , some totally regular. Ive never claimed they didnt.
I always hated the carbon credit thing - but EVERY US auto maker could have gotten it.
It was at least fair on that level.
I was never for the EV industry getting anything any regular manufacturing business did not.
My assertion is 7500 is a drop in bucket next to what the oil companies get and us automakers get from 179.
Why cant i get a depreciation allowance when I find a new client like an oil company finding a new well?
I may not gave technically found your definition of subsidy but I found lot of other unique benefits that just aren't called subsidies but are benefits none the less.
You are trying to pretend these bennies dont exist or even never existed.
I didn't pay a bribe when I wanted a brazillian visa in a reasonable time- I paid a process acceleration fee.
The two are basically the same.
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You maybe don’t but others here do. So my beef wasn’t with you.
Regarding 179 I agree with you. No industry gets as many deals as the U.S. auto industry - right up to their outright bailout in 2008.
I am not defending IDC’s. But the difference is that if I drill a dry hole , or dig an empty mine - the money is gone. Making me take 39 years to depreciate it makes no sense. It’s worth zero now.
As for you I guarantee your accountants deduct all legitimate expenses for landing a new client. Why some things are deductible and some not - beyond my pay grade.
And no a tax deduction on actual expense is not a subsidy. As for the fifth fleet and other things that’s all well perpetuated lies. That was all about defending the dollar and not oil manufacturing. It put more oil companies out of business than anything. Hard to compete with Saudi when they have the fifth fleet.
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