Federal EV tax credit set to end completely September 30th

[JeffKeryk]

I have read that Tesla sales have fallen almost 15% - while general sales of EVs are up.
I believe Musk getting openly/publicly involved in politics, was a very poor business decision.
"Cool" is a very subjective label.

Yep, Tesla's share of the US EV market had fallen, but they are still #1 by a long shot. Competition has emerged and grown, and as you say, Musk shot himself in the foot with his recent actions, which I believe are contrary to his fudicial responsibilities to his companies.

I believe GM became #2 is US sales in 2024, and had a strong 2025 Q2.

I didn't bring up cool.

 

[Rmay635703]

Confirmed #1 and #2 was removed from the budget bill. Sooner or later something will have to be addressed regarding this.

1. EV owners will pay an additional $250 annual fee for the loss in Federal Road taxes (eliminated)
2. Hybrid owners will pay an additional $100 fee for the loss in Federal Road Taxes (elminated)

#2 is illegal and violates the equal protection clause of the constitution as a feigned difference not eligible for taxation , so it had to be removed or immediate lawsuits would have occurred.

#1 runs amuck of states rights and would cost ~$15 billion to implement resulting in another IRS like money wasting entity.

If a federal registration tax on individuals made sense it would have been done decades ago, if it’s never been done before it usually means it can never be done without constitutional changes.

There are entities suing .govs around the country over “right to drive” and “free to drive” efforts because registration fees legally were never meant to be a profit center, to collect road fees or to be high enough to become a barrier to the legal operation of the vehicle by for example the young, the poor or unemployed.
If they are successful a lot of this nonsense may be eliminated nationwide reverting back to more rational fees and systems erasing the last 25 years of wrongheaded legislation.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Supply the facts? Do you want me to post the tax subsidies that gasoline refiners receive specifically to subsidize the price of gasoline? The conservative estimates are $300-$400 billion a year.

Where. Whose estimates? The same bias link you posted above written by the same lobby groups? I already showed its tax accounting not subsidies that green energy companies also use from the same bias source.

It’s a thread about subsidies ending and that’s it.

You can’t stand the smell of gas or a gas engine yet you work for a railroad that operates the most polluting and dirtiest vehicles left in this country. There has been tech available to clean locomotives up but the rr lobby against it.

60% of electricity is produced by fossil fuels anyway.

The rare earths used to make EV’s come from extremely dirty processes in China that we ignore the pollution generated making them. We also ignore how we’re now controlled in trade by this shortage.

You say it’s cheaper yet the EV is 50% more upfront which you ignore.

Yes. Post some facts. From real studies Not lobby groups projecting their PC.

 

[alarmguy]

Federal highway taxes? The states are already punitively taking that share. The Federal government should take that share from the states then. If they actually went after it as they want to at the Federal level I'd see $450 in fees between the state and the Federal level and both are blown out of proportion by 200%+ to hit that level. Federal wants $250. The state takes $200 as is and at $200 its already twice what the total fee should be between both fees. It's all anti EV anger resulting in punitive damage.

Has nothing to do with the Federal Government what your state does.
The fact is as an EV owner you are avoiding the 18.4 cents per gallon that the Federal Government collects for the highways.
Im not arguing with you, just presenting facts.
It will be sooner or later that EV owners will pay. It didnt make it into this budget bill but it was close. Who knows when politicians if ever correct this but it's just another can kicked down the road, sooner or later someone will pick it up. They will have to.

I suspect now, in an age with everything connected, a matter of time where your state and federal tax dollars will be charged as a usage tax at registration time. The amount of miles you drive. But until then ... somehow they will find a way.

 

[alarmguy]

By the way this is per car. I should receive $900 a year in road tax charges for two cars to cover my fair share? That’s enough to cover 8 cars. @alarmguy Figure out your tax charge on gasoline and tell me what that costs your for your Equinox for 12,000 miles for your average fuel economy.

That would have been $500. in Federal tax.
$250 per car as I posted. What you state does is not on a national level

 

[Brons2]

Now that we're arguing about fair taxation, how much of the federal highway budget comes from sources other than gas taxes? (and sadly, borrowing)

With RFID toll tags being prevalent these days, maybe it's just time to make the whole sumb---- user funded. The Interstate Toll Road System.

 

[GrumpyCat]

The rare earths used to make EV’s come from extremely dirty processes in China that we ignore the pollution generated making them. We also ignore how we’re now controlled in trade by this shortage.

Our Enlightened Globalist "Leaders" gifted this market to the poor impoverished 3rd world in the mistaken belief they would industrialize, modernize, and pull themselves up with their bootstraps. What happened is China moved in and enslaved the production. Once Upon A Time the USA was the world's source of not so rare Rare Earths, produced cleanly. We have "Rare" Earth resources in the USA and the know-how to process cleanly, but not until recently have had the will to do it.

You say it’s cheaper yet the EV is 50% more upfront which you ignore.

My Tesla Model Y Long Range was cheaper than the Toyota RAV4 which was my 2nd choice.

Yes. Post some facts. From real studies Not lobby groups projecting their PC.

Yes, fact: I bought a Tesla Model Y for less than a RAV4.

 

[GrumpyCat]

I have read that Tesla sales have fallen almost 15% - while general sales of EVs are up.

You seem to have little comprehension of market trends? 15% up or down is a routine market swing. Just as the weather is continuously changing.

 

[ripcord]

Our Enlightened Globalist "Leaders" gifted this market to the poor impoverished 3rd world in the mistaken belief they would industrialize, modernize, and pull themselves up with their bootstraps. What happened is China moved in and enslaved the production. Once Upon A Time the USA was the world's source of not so rare Rare Earths, produced cleanly. We have "Rare" Earth resources in the USA and the know-how to process cleanly, but not until recently have had the will to do it.


My Tesla Model Y Long Range was cheaper than the Toyota RAV4 which was my 2nd choice.


Yes, fact: I bought a Tesla Model Y for less than a RAV4.

You are kind of over stating your case about the 3rd world. Severe poverty in the developing world has declined rapidly over the past decades and continues to improve as capitalism expands.

Rare Earth minerals aren't actually rare, they are just dispersed very evenly throughout the world and therefore are expensive and destructive to extract and process. That's the reason that the US got away from producing them. The places where they are produced have just somewhat more concentrated supplies and a willingness to move a lot of dirt and rocks to get them out of the ground.

https://www.truecar.com/compare/tesla-model-y-vs-toyota-rav4/

 

[Mechanician]

You seem to have little comprehension of market trends? 15% up or down is a routine market swing. Just as the weather is continuously changing.

Did you comprehend the comparison to the rest of the market during the same period? Market trend.......

 

[Torrid]

That's gone with this tax credit expiration as well. They've changed how CAFE is being calculated.

There is no "gas subsidy".

Correct. But we live in a State Capitalist Economy pretending to be a Free Market Capitalist Economy. No endeavor of substance is undertaken without government blessing with generous funds, grants, rule changes, and tax breaks. No apartment complex, no shopping center, no factory no matter if it builds EVs or pencils.

Local examples include a Toyota engine factory, a Toyota/Mazda factory, Polaris factory, and 1000 acre Facebook data center. More recently HUD has caused thousands upon thousands of "multi-family dwellings" be constructed. 5 years ago almost no 4 story apartment buildings and today there are hundreds of new, all 4 stories for some reason. And much fewer new home projects. This is not a "free market".

What "tax breaks" are you referring to? Refineries get to write off expenses incurred in the production of gasoline exactly the same as any other business. Oil Haters have twisted these write-offs into subsidies, which they are not.

They’re subsidies. Federal tax law even calls it that. Church it up to someone else.

 

[SC Maintenance]

They’re subsidies. Federal tax law even calls it that. Church it up to someone else.

Post the law then? No such law exists. You keep repeating this over and over. Propaganda 101 - repeat the lie often in hopes everyone believes it.

 

[Torrid]

That would have been $500. in Federal tax.
$250 per car as I posted. What you state does is not on a national level

Right. Both are still double what a road tax would be if they were gasoline vehicles. I want to hear the case the justifies both charging me double what a gasoline vehicle pays.

I guess my “rich” derriere should pay 4x my fair share. Even if they both charged the fair amount separately and I ended up with the double bonus payment, at least it wouldn’t be so punitive.

 

[UncleDave]

Post the law then? No such law exists. You keep repeating this over and over. Propaganda 101 - repeat the lie often in hopes everyone believes it.

Gasoline specifically? Or the industry around it?

The oil & petroleum industry gets all kinds of unique business favors, stuff like depletion allowances and or protected transport routes to name a few.

The 5th fleet parked in the straight of Hormuz or thereabouts for several decades isnt exactly a gasoline subsidy specifically, but comes at tremendous cost to someone.

I'm not necessarily against these things but cant pretend they don't exist and say that industry has no subsidies, tax breaks, or unique deductions and implied spend around it.

 

[SC Maintenance]

What the hell is wrong with you? The railroad is the most polluting industry we have? It’s the most efficient way to move goods that still burns fuel which it converts to ELECTRICITY for tractive effort. What axe to do you have to grind with me? Just say it. I’m sick of these stupid attacks.

You brought up “smelly gas station” and attacked the oil industry. I am not allowed to post facts about rail?

And I didn’t say industry. I said vehicle. Read my post

In addition to being giant polluters they also have actively suppressed passenger rail - which is very far behind in this country

https://t4america.org/2023/04/05/off-the-rails-a-call-for-freight-railroad-reform/

https://www.evergreenaction.com/blog/trains-are-a-climate-solution-just-not-in-the-united-states

 

[Torrid]

You brought up “smelly gas station” and attacked the oil industry. I am not allowed to post facts about rail?

In addition to being giant polluters they also have actively suppressed passenger rail - which is very far behind in this country

https://t4america.org/2023/04/05/off-the-rails-a-call-for-freight-railroad-reform/

https://www.evergreenaction.com/blog/trains-are-a-climate-solution-just-not-in-the-united-states

You have no idea what you’re talking about, yet keep going. I’m done with this crap.

I don’t want to smell gas so I don’t drive gas cars. Knock yourself out with whatever you want to drive.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Gasoline specifically? Or the industry around it?

The oil & petroleum industry gets all kinds of unique business favors, stuff like depletion allowances and or protected transport routes to name a few.

The 5th fleet parked in the straight of Hormuz or thereabouts for several decades isnt exactly a gasoline subsidy specifically, but comes at tremendous cost to someone.

I'm not necessarily against these things but cant pretend they don't exist and say that industry has no subsidies, tax breaks, or unique deductions and implied spend around it.

The fifth fleet was there to defend the petro dollar. If it did lower the price of gas that was a negative subsidy to the oil industry, not a positive one.

There are lots of special tax treatments. Like you can deduct 100% of natural gas capture facility in year 1 because govco wants the natural gas for electricity. Lots of these same deductions are also used by those mining rare earths. There not a subsidy. They allow tax deductions that would be allowed anyway to be taken faster. If you want all of them gone that’s fine with me. Just don’t pretend there only used by oil. Oh and expect your electricity to become much more expensive. There not subsidies. We’re not writing checks to big oil.

There is no way to argue around the EV subsidy. There is nothing like it for ICE vehicles. The new special tax deduction for new car interest possibly is. I am against it also.

There are lots of subsidies for retail gasoline. Like big ag for ethanol. And rules forcing me to buy it. The attack is never against that. It’s always an attack here on the oil industry.

Specific facts matter

 

[CapitalTruck]

Oil exploration is very heavily subsidized by you and I, the tax payer. A far sight more than the 7500 ev tax credits. For a commodity as valuable as oil I don’t think we need to pay companies to drill for it.

 

[CapitalTruck]

“Repealing the deduction would save U.S. taxpayers an estimated $13 billion between 2024 and 2033, according to estimates by the Joint Committee on Taxation.”

 

[UncleDave]

The fifth fleet was there to defend the petro dollar. If it did lower the price of gas that was a negative subsidy to the oil industry, not a positive one.

There are lots of special tax treatments. Like you can deduct 100% of natural gas capture facility in year 1 because govco wants the natural gas for electricity. Lots of these same deductions are also used by those mining rare earths. There not a subsidy. They allow tax deductions that would be allowed anyway to be taken faster. If you want all of them gone that’s fine with me. Just don’t pretend there only used by oil. Oh and expect your electricity to become much more expensive. There not subsidies. We’re not writing checks to big oil.

There is no way to argue around the EV subsidy. There is nothing like it for ICE vehicles. The new special tax deduction for new car interest possibly is. I am against it also.

There are lots of subsidies for retail gasoline. Like big ag for ethanol. And rules forcing me to buy it. The attack is never against that. It’s always an attack here on the oil industry.

Specific facts matter

Pretodollar protection didnt benefit the petroleum industry?

For sure there was an EV subsidy.

Beneficial treatment for the petroleum industry may not technically be a subsidy in many cases but beneficial treatment, breaks, and special circumstance all has a cost.

Comparatively the EV subsidy was mice nuts.