Not really true, lots of people with and without kids make the world a better place for their immediate family and their community. As a self-aware organism we should strive for a bit greater goals than just reproduction....
Fear of having children - serious discussion
- Thread starter bismillah
- Start date
Or said another way, when you’ve outlived your usefulness, is the company you work for going to reminisce and tell stories about the great times they had with you?
Raising a family is in itself an honorable goal, and has the opportunity of building a legacy. Businesses die or devour each other; offspring can tell your story.
Whichever way you decide at this point is up to you; to make the decision to start having kids is certainly not made lightly, and will require things from you that no employer ever could. But it can also pay you for your efforts in ways that money alone can never duplicate.
It sounds like your brother's kids could use a functional adult to help them out. They probably won't be interacting with him much as they grow up, and there's an opportunity for you to make a real difference in their future if you can work it out with your brother?
Some of the neighbor kids my age, still visit my Dad(75 now) when they are in town as he helped them through a divorce and then their functional parent passing away.
Not arguing or confirming your point. Just a random thought regarding your comment...
Nikola Tesla gave some of the greatest gifts to this world. It's fair to say that life that we know would not be this advanced without Nikola Tesla. Yet during his life he was always pushed back by the wealthies, barely recognized for his work, and died in deep debt at a hotel from a heart attack. No wife, no kids. His joy in last few years was to go to a Cathedral to feed the pigeons. On one of those pigeon trips he got hit by a taxi and was severely injured. Never recovered and didn't have anyone to care for him. Didn't have money for doctors either, and didn't like doctors anyways.
So in his last years, when all he thought he had (piles of inventions, labs, etc.) was gone - he found joy in caring for something... the pigeons. Well, caring for kids gives even more joy, despite being a lot more expensive/exhausting/frustrating/time-consuming. But unlike pigeons - in kids you can actually see the fruits of your labor, and that is the source of that joy.
I guess what I'm aiming at is - inventing something to help the world is great, but is usually only appreciated and praised after inventor's death. But keeping it small scale (like raising kids), if done right, will "produce the fruits" while we're still alive, and won't feel as a waste of time when it's time to leave this world.
Edit: Ken Block passed away yesterday. Huge loss for the world of motorsports. But look at what his employer (HOONIGAN) highlights as the most important achievements in Ken's life. Not championships, not all the wins, not GYMKHANAs, but "a father and husband"... To me that speaks volumes.
Last edited:
You can teach and train your kids the right way but that doesn't mean they will listen. Case in point. There were four of us kids. Myself and two of my sisters never got in trouble and did all of the right things but my other sister started doing drugs, stealing, and lost her kids to her ex-husband and ultimately was murdered by her abusive, druggie boyfriend. We were all brought up the same but outside influences and other things caused our sister to not follow the same path that we did. Outside influences and other people can have a very negative effect on your kids no matter how well you bring them up.
As far as never getting divorced, sometimes that is not your decision or choice as it was in my case and many others. If you do get divorced and are not the custodial parent, your visitation rights may not be equal to the person who has primary custody as was the case in my situation.
OP - I don't have any real words of wisdom for you. For sure an important decision and one that should not be taken lightly.
Here is what I'll share. I'm about your age and been with my wife for a long time. Kids were never important to me, I was not against having kids but had my spouse not wanted kids, I would have (at least I think) been fine with that. Similar to you, I am a saver, been thrifty for most of my life and saved what I could starting early, more than 20 years ago, and have done "okay" for myself/our family in the nest egg and saving for the future department.
We have two young girls, a few months and 2.5 years old. On a personal basis, nothing anyone could have said to me prior to having children would have prepared me for what it was like to hold our child, for them to need me for XYZ, etc. I've gotten a unique chance to be present for almost every day of their lives working from home these past few years. I speak with only a few years experience but the highs are high and the lows are low. Molding and shaping another person's life is a big task, rewarding and gray hair (or no hair) inducing all in a matter of seconds.
I personally would not trade it for a life without them, but YMMV very much so comes to mind as I read through this thread, and think about that personal decision for everyone.
Here is what I'll share. I'm about your age and been with my wife for a long time. Kids were never important to me, I was not against having kids but had my spouse not wanted kids, I would have (at least I think) been fine with that. Similar to you, I am a saver, been thrifty for most of my life and saved what I could starting early, more than 20 years ago, and have done "okay" for myself/our family in the nest egg and saving for the future department.
We have two young girls, a few months and 2.5 years old. On a personal basis, nothing anyone could have said to me prior to having children would have prepared me for what it was like to hold our child, for them to need me for XYZ, etc. I've gotten a unique chance to be present for almost every day of their lives working from home these past few years. I speak with only a few years experience but the highs are high and the lows are low. Molding and shaping another person's life is a big task, rewarding and gray hair (or no hair) inducing all in a matter of seconds.
I personally would not trade it for a life without them, but YMMV very much so comes to mind as I read through this thread, and think about that personal decision for everyone.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2022
- Messages
- 1,011
The other side of that argument... We need young folk to work and pay taxes to fund our Social Security. So I encourage everyone to have kids, and give them a good chance of wellbeing.
Well now it seems we are comparing introverts without friends or spouses who are completely dedicated to one facet of life (and there are lots) to everyone who doesn't have kids. I think most people would agree that having friends is healthy.
I realize this is an oil forum, most people don't really care too much, but short of jumping off a bridge, the number one thing anyone can do for the planet is to not reproduce. The world doesn't need any more people.
Kids are serious decisions these days. You don't just pop them out and let them live on their own after 18.
Personally I think people won't know if they want kids until they are at least 30 years old. They won't know how wonderful kids are until they hit some serious trouble in life and they have no one else to count on, and they won't know if it make sense to have them until they are old and their spouses died, leave them all alone in the world.
It is not for everyone, and many people have them not knowing why. If you just want something cute get a puppy. If you want to save the world help your local foster kids program and mentor them. If you want a bond that is unbreakable no matter how bad things are, have your own biological kids, and raise them well after you know how to be a good role model.
Personally I think people won't know if they want kids until they are at least 30 years old. They won't know how wonderful kids are until they hit some serious trouble in life and they have no one else to count on, and they won't know if it make sense to have them until they are old and their spouses died, leave them all alone in the world.
It is not for everyone, and many people have them not knowing why. If you just want something cute get a puppy. If you want to save the world help your local foster kids program and mentor them. If you want a bond that is unbreakable no matter how bad things are, have your own biological kids, and raise them well after you know how to be a good role model.
Last edited:
This is a horrible reason to have kids. There are always ways to improve productivity and create value in our society. Even if SS collapse and government collapse, there will be human activities and automation / technologies to help support our lifestyles with fewer and fewer newborns.
Maybe we end up like Japan.
Japan is only in trouble because they are not accepting new populations from elsewhere.
US will be fine as we accept people from other countries to replace the youth we need. China may accept 3rd world population to replace their youth, but they will be fine if they are willing to let their aging seniors die instead of saving them at all cost (they are already doing that). Work will be moving around and the world will be fine eventually as a whole.
Remember, this is not any different than after major world wars and plague where 1/3 of the population in productive age got wiped out, the whole society will rebound within 30 years.
I am 34 and no kids here. I think I would be an amazing dad and could financially support a kid or two if we chose, but I don't think it's in the cards at this time.
Thing is, I could go either way really, but part of me doesn't want the next 18+ years of my life commited to a little person. At this age, I'm just settling in, starting to travel the world and enjoying my hobbies. I wouldn't really be ready for kids until on my 40s at this point if we did.
But also hearing all the horror stories from friends and coworkers is all I need as well... So much regret, it's unreal.
Thing is, I could go either way really, but part of me doesn't want the next 18+ years of my life commited to a little person. At this age, I'm just settling in, starting to travel the world and enjoying my hobbies. I wouldn't really be ready for kids until on my 40s at this point if we did.
But also hearing all the horror stories from friends and coworkers is all I need as well... So much regret, it's unreal.
I run off the notion that, my kids are what I leave behind when I am gone.
I would not be here if my parents never took the plunge. Mind you, I could not have picked better parents and siblings.
Without them, my wife and i would be much better off financially, have a lot less stress and no doubt would travel more. My kids are 14 and 12. I have some incredible highs and some incredible challenges. But when your kids come up and hugs you for no reason, you know you made the right decision. Some of the best memories are with my girls.
I would not be here if my parents never took the plunge. Mind you, I could not have picked better parents and siblings.
Without them, my wife and i would be much better off financially, have a lot less stress and no doubt would travel more. My kids are 14 and 12. I have some incredible highs and some incredible challenges. But when your kids come up and hugs you for no reason, you know you made the right decision. Some of the best memories are with my girls.
Attachments
There are many factors in deciding to have children.
No 1 is can you afford to raise them in a healthy way???
Other factors include temperament, personality and personal goals.
NO one can tell you what to do. However, A planned family has a much better chance of success than an accidental one.
Some will argue the world is already over populated and there are not enough good jobs for everyone. This will only get worse. Climate change is accelerated by growing the population and putting more stress on the environment. In the past the human population was controlled by wars, famine and pandemic. Technology , educaiton and diplomacy as helped reduce those factors dramatically. Some will say you should think about what kind of world your kids and their kids will live in. Just saying.
No 1 is can you afford to raise them in a healthy way???
Other factors include temperament, personality and personal goals.
NO one can tell you what to do. However, A planned family has a much better chance of success than an accidental one.
Some will argue the world is already over populated and there are not enough good jobs for everyone. This will only get worse. Climate change is accelerated by growing the population and putting more stress on the environment. In the past the human population was controlled by wars, famine and pandemic. Technology , educaiton and diplomacy as helped reduce those factors dramatically. Some will say you should think about what kind of world your kids and their kids will live in. Just saying.
These days they are controlled by unrealistic expectations.
80% of the women want 15% of the men, and therefore 15% of the men and 15% of the women at the top with match, and 20% of the men and 20% of the women at the bottom will match. This means we have 35% of the population to match, and reproduce by choice, with 2 kids per couple, lower than the 2.1 per couple needed to replace the population. This means like 31% replacement rate without immigration.
I think we will have sharp decline in population in the next 100 years.
Raised 4 kids and still don't like my job 
. I could see liking it even less if I felt like I didn't absolutely need it. Don't worry so much about the future or the past. Try to enjoy now while you can. I'm glad we did it early and would no way want to be the 50 year old picking up my kid from Kindergarten. It's exhausting.
. I could see liking it even less if I felt like I didn't absolutely need it. Don't worry so much about the future or the past. Try to enjoy now while you can. I'm glad we did it early and would no way want to be the 50 year old picking up my kid from Kindergarten. It's exhausting.
Going back to the OP's initial statements, I question what his motives for having children are.
- Is it to have a legacy in the form of a human being vs. another form such as an achievement?
- Is it to please the opinion of his parents/friends/associates(pro children)?
- Is it to have heirs/someone to pass down his life savings/accomplishments?
ALL of these things can be achieved with or without children. His initial posts indicate these are all serious questions for him now. He is questioning the meaning and purpose of life, which is different for everyone.
At age 66, I recently was moved by a statement on a TikTok-like posting (of all places): Live life to please yourself first. Think about it. It might seem selfish, but it is not. In everything you do, if you have not pleased yourself, then everything else may be for naught. It somewhat reflects the Shakespeare message "to thine own self be true".
My recommendation is that he does some deep soul searching to determine his motives and purpose in life. Having children does not guarantee happiness just like having wealth does not.
- Is it to have a legacy in the form of a human being vs. another form such as an achievement?
- Is it to please the opinion of his parents/friends/associates(pro children)?
- Is it to have heirs/someone to pass down his life savings/accomplishments?
ALL of these things can be achieved with or without children. His initial posts indicate these are all serious questions for him now. He is questioning the meaning and purpose of life, which is different for everyone.
At age 66, I recently was moved by a statement on a TikTok-like posting (of all places): Live life to please yourself first. Think about it. It might seem selfish, but it is not. In everything you do, if you have not pleased yourself, then everything else may be for naught. It somewhat reflects the Shakespeare message "to thine own self be true".
My recommendation is that he does some deep soul searching to determine his motives and purpose in life. Having children does not guarantee happiness just like having wealth does not.
~Stopped reading @ #4~
for me children R because U have reached a certain point in the relationship.
Just like an individual has reached a point in solo development (it's tops). Conversion. Change to 'couple'.
The relationship (marriage ) has reached its top and now can B more... w/offspring.
Called a family (next conversion).
We would not want an incomplete individual to seek to complete themselves by joining w/another. That would stress the relationship ("I need U to complete me."). Not allow the individual to do the wrk to grow to top level. Likewise children R not needed to complete (the individual or) the relationship, they R a culmination of sorts (just like the marriage 4 the individual). Besides it is a decision U reach together. (done solo 1st, as it seems U have). Go tell her things may have changed w/in you BUT 1st decide if it has!
B a good scientist. Make a hypothesis, test it, collect the data, look over the results, do the research, then MAKE a DECISION. U can always go back. (U make a decision when all U get is the same info over'n over - no New info). So be steadfast in the decision when communicating w/her. She's ur partner U owe her that. Any1, every1 can change. We must or die. So change ur decision (probably not made w/a good decision tree/or decision making process B4). Once done lay it aside (was a pretty cartesian/newtonian process) and relax.Take some time to set back and relax. Visualize a changed life w/kid(s). What would THAT B like? How would it feel?... put the 2 together (thought'n feeling). I'd say U'd done all U could to 'decide'. But from here U can advocate, B in a place of knowing when listening to her.
Now once U HAVE child(ren) U can not go back of course. This is Y the good process. As w/the eggplant parm, U just forgot the cover. A family is based on the quality of the couple's relationship. I C kids run families, not good 4 any1 (kid, couple, individuals). I C parents try to run kids (U cant, they must run their own lives... w/ur guidance). Often I see kids asa spiritual path (all ur resources - internal, external, faith, prayers, etc) so that U R changed into a better person (20 yrs later). If not up-to it go B a monk (celibate) and do not drag the innocent w/U. B firmly committed to the challenge and your love for ur wife can B the center of the world (because UR adding to it w/humans). Lots more ta say, better end there for now~
Time for more reading (from #4 onward)
BTW: my dad was still fathering me at 95, I was still 'soning him' at 64 y/o
for me children R because U have reached a certain point in the relationship.
Just like an individual has reached a point in solo development (it's tops). Conversion. Change to 'couple'.
The relationship (marriage ) has reached its top and now can B more... w/offspring.
Called a family (next conversion).
We would not want an incomplete individual to seek to complete themselves by joining w/another. That would stress the relationship ("I need U to complete me."). Not allow the individual to do the wrk to grow to top level. Likewise children R not needed to complete (the individual or) the relationship, they R a culmination of sorts (just like the marriage 4 the individual). Besides it is a decision U reach together. (done solo 1st, as it seems U have). Go tell her things may have changed w/in you BUT 1st decide if it has!
B a good scientist. Make a hypothesis, test it, collect the data, look over the results, do the research, then MAKE a DECISION. U can always go back. (U make a decision when all U get is the same info over'n over - no New info). So be steadfast in the decision when communicating w/her. She's ur partner U owe her that. Any1, every1 can change. We must or die. So change ur decision (probably not made w/a good decision tree/or decision making process B4). Once done lay it aside (was a pretty cartesian/newtonian process) and relax.Take some time to set back and relax. Visualize a changed life w/kid(s). What would THAT B like? How would it feel?... put the 2 together (thought'n feeling). I'd say U'd done all U could to 'decide'. But from here U can advocate, B in a place of knowing when listening to her.
Now once U HAVE child(ren) U can not go back of course. This is Y the good process. As w/the eggplant parm, U just forgot the cover. A family is based on the quality of the couple's relationship. I C kids run families, not good 4 any1 (kid, couple, individuals). I C parents try to run kids (U cant, they must run their own lives... w/ur guidance). Often I see kids asa spiritual path (all ur resources - internal, external, faith, prayers, etc) so that U R changed into a better person (20 yrs later). If not up-to it go B a monk (celibate) and do not drag the innocent w/U. B firmly committed to the challenge and your love for ur wife can B the center of the world (because UR adding to it w/humans). Lots more ta say, better end there for now~
Time for more reading (from #4 onward)
BTW: my dad was still fathering me at 95, I was still 'soning him' at 64 y/o
