Fake parts, part 1,000,000

[JeffKeryk]

Our trusty 2001 Tundra was getting close to the 200K mark earlier this year. So I figured I would replace the 8 ignition coils; heck I don't put a nickel into this thing and I like dependable. Anyways, ebay had a set of genuine Toyota coils for about $300 or something like that. I asked the seller if they were really Toyota parts because Toyota coils are probably over $100 each at the dealer. He said yes. So I bit.

#5 failed in about a month; maybe 200 miles on it? #4 failed over the weekend; 1,700 miles. TBT, it never ran as smooth as it was before. And the 4.7 engine is a smoothie. I asked my friend The Critic what the chances were of a genuine Toyota failing in 1 month; he replied 1 in a bazillion or something like that.

So, if it seems to be too good to be true, it probably is.
By the way, the seller is no longer on ebay... He took my $$ and ran!
I put the originals back in and she's back to normal. I did order a set of Densos for about $53 each. Sheesh.
B

 

[PimTac]

If it’s too good to be true, it probably isn’t.

 

[Trav]

The box was possibly the OE part of the whole deal with knockoffs inside.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

You might still be able to get your money back by filing a claim with eBay or PayPal.

The Denso coils from a reputable source are exact OE.

Are coils a known problem on the Tundra? Because otherwise, coils are not wear items that need to be replaced at regular intervals.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Another lesson that could be taken from this... don't fix what isn't broken.

 

[Kira]

Just my thoughts in no particular order.
1) Where did this "replace your spark coils" thing come from? With electronics on my planet there's infant mortality or the thing lasts forever.
I'm >15 years into Volvo 5 cylinder ownership over 3 cars. They all have the same engine with a single spark coil over each plug.
So far, so good. I have read a few posts regarding failure of coils but really just a few. If you take amateurs' ham handedness into account I bet the failure rate is even lower.

2) I planned a spark plug change on my first 5 cylinder and expected to find my coils with burnt, crispy wiring so I called a big Volvo parts place to see what these things were going to cost. The salesman said, "We stock 'em and I've never sold one". Indeed the wires were of the highest, silicone quality I'd ever seen.
Watch, one's going to fry tomorrow.

3) I was told by a movie studio rep that pirating of films takes place in the studios. Sloppy videotaping from a front row balcony seat in a theatre is only occasionally done. ERGO I'm willing to bet that counterfeiting is done at jobbers' sites during off hours. The embossed placards look good as do labels from the printing shop.

4) +1 on "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

5) And PimTac: The expression is, "If it's too good to be true, it probably IS". Meaning it IS too good to be true. Don't take offense, Mom was an English teacher.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Thanks for the feed backs...
In my original post, I wrote, "So, if it seems to be too good to be true, it probably is."
That's the kicker.
Others have chimed in with the same sentiment.

Regarding "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", I operate differently in most cases. I have little time for fixing broken cars, so I am big on preventative maintenance. A coil went out on wifey's TSX at about 180K, I had to get it towed and replaced at a shop because I had had surgery and was unable to wrench. The truck is not used much, but when it does I go from Los Gatos to Petaluma, or Sacremento. Trips of 100 miles or more. More than that, Sue likes the truck and takes it to work. You know about traffic in Silicon Valley.
So preventative maintenance is important to me. This is partly from my career as a development programmer in large scale business applications. Perhaps 1/3 of my code is "what if" logic; code that will likely never be executed. When you are forecasting, planning, shipping and performing revenue recognition for a multi billion dollar, highly volatile SV company, the millions of lines of transactions better add up. The resulting analytics as well. The data can be even be called into court cases. It's a big deal; I cannot be too careful. Safety first!

So, If I had not cheaped out, I would likely be happy with my decision of replacing the ignition coils at 200K.
Again, I appreciate your thoughts. Especially the possible ebay return!
Oh yeah, maybe I'll return the new Densos I bought... Sheesh.

 

[Andrew1972]

There is no such thing as PM on a 20 year old let alone 4 year truck except what Car maker recommends or is effecting operation.

 

[Barkleymut]

There is no such thing as PM on a 20 year old let alone 4 year truck except what Car maker recommends or is effecting operation.

I don't think the OP needs to worry about his coils....but changing plugs, diff fluid, trans fluid, pcv, etc before the manufacturer calls for it is a good way to prevent problems on down the line, even if that line is 30 years old.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

How exactly did you determine these were actually counterfeit components ( as opposed to legitimate components that simply failed or were pre damaged before you installed them)

 

[JeffKeryk]

How exactly did you determine these were actually counterfeit components ( as opposed to legitimate components that simply failed or were pre damaged before you installed them)

TBT, I do not know they are counterfeit. The only visual difference I could tell was the bushing for the hold down fastener was copper colored (bronze?) in the original and shiny (aluminum?) on the new one.
Beyond that, the only characteristics are very low price, high failure rate and seller is no longer on ebay.
I first tried to contact the seller in April I believe after the 1st failure, as these had a lifetime guarantee.
I would guess an ignition coil lists for well over $100 at a dealer.
Any ideas? I do find this interesting.

I believe I was taken hook, line and sinker. The ebay listing showed the Toyota Lexus box and all.
I have read the failure rate on Toyota coils goes up after 150K, but this is anecdotal at best. I imagine there are many Tundras running around with 250K on original coils. Dunno....

Adding a little more information:
The April failure caused immeadiate poor running and a check engine light. P0305 error code.
The recent failure flashed the CEL and stored a P0304 in "pending codes".
Idle was rock solid. The problem was under load.

 

[92saturnsl2]

I've driven a few vehicles to well over 200k, and my failure rate for coils at >200k is probably better than vehicles I've owned with 0-100k. I don't consider it a wear item and won't replace one unless it's broken. They don't leave you stranded on the side of the road (in the case of coil on plug) and the parts are so widely available (for most makes) you don't have to drive far to get a replacement. So I don't see the point. I can only remember replacing one or two in the last few years, I drive to the junkyard down the street from work and pick an OEM one up for $10. Never had a repeat failure.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I've driven a few vehicles to well over 200k, and my failure rate for coils at >200k is probably better than vehicles I've owned with 0-100k. I don't consider it a wear item and won't replace one unless it's broken. They don't leave you stranded on the side of the road (in the case of coil on plug) and the parts are so widely available (for most makes) you don't have to drive far to get a replacement. So I don't see the point. I can only remember replacing one or two in the last few years, I drive to the junkyard down the street from work and pick an OEM one up for $10. Never had a repeat failure.

Glad you have had such good luck. Unfortunately my experience was different than yours.
Our TSX was not driveable upon failure. It could bare limp in a parking lot. 25% loss of power.
The 1st Tundra failure resulted in a very poor running engine; lack of power. 12.5% loss in power.
That's why I considered the ignition coils wear items.

Again, glad you have had little trouble.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

TBT, I do not know they are counterfeit. The only visual difference I could tell was the bushing for the hold down fastener was copper colored (bronze?) in the original and shiny (aluminum?) on the new one.

Any ideas? I do find this interesting.

I believe I was taken hook, line and sinker.

I tend to believe you possibly were as well but that aside.

I would suggest you do put forth some effort in ascertaining if they were legitimate or not- could be masking a problem.

However, its equally possible they simply were defective ( rare doesn't equal impossible)

Could be in the connections, or other related issue.

That was the whole point of my question- was every realistic possibility checked because its been my experience that the problem is not always obvious ( especially in electrical and instrumentation)

and if you did determine them counterfeit- how? ( which you addressed)

 

[JC1]

If it’s too good to be true, it probably isn’t.

+100.

 

[Trav]

TBT, I do not know they are counterfeit. The only visual difference I could tell was the bushing for the hold down fastener was copper colored (bronze?) in the original and shiny (aluminum?) on the new one.
Beyond that, the only characteristics are very low price, high failure rate and seller is no longer on ebay.
I first tried to contact the seller in April I believe after the 1st failure, as these had a lifetime guarantee.
I would guess an ignition coil lists for well over $100 at a dealer.
Any ideas? I do find this interesting.

I believe I was taken hook, line and sinker. The ebay listing showed the Toyota Lexus box and all.
I have read the failure rate on Toyota coils goes up after 150K, but this is anecdotal at best. I imagine there are many Tundras running around with 250K on original coils. Dunno....

Adding a little more information:
The April failure caused immeadiate poor running and a check engine light. P0305 error code.
The recent failure flashed the CEL and stored a P0304 in "pending codes".
Idle was rock solid. The problem was under load.

If they were $650 for the set of OE you got a good deal but $300 they got a good deal and closed up shot and ran off with it. No way $300 for a set of those, its just too cheap. Too bad people like this and counterfeiters of parts exist but this is new world and it is a dangerous place for honest people.

 

[JeffKeryk]

If they were $650 for the set of OE you got a good deal but $300 they got a good deal and closed up shot and ran off with it. No way $300 for a set of those, its just too cheap. Too bad people like this and counterfeiters of parts exist but this is new world and it is a dangerous place for honest people.

I got hosed. Yeah, he took the money and ran.
"dangerous place for honest people" is too kind. In my case it was hope. And I absolutely know hope is a lousy strategy.
Ha! Thanks Trav. I should have known better. You recommended replacement ignition coils for our TSX and it has been flawless.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I tend to believe you possibly were as well but that aside.

I would suggest you do put forth some effort in ascertaining if they were legitimate or not- could be masking a problem.

However, its equally possible they simply were defective ( rare doesn't equal impossible)

Could be in the connections, or other related issue.

That was the whole point of my question- was every realistic possibility checked because its been my experience that the problem is not always obvious ( especially in electrical and instrumentation)

and if you did determine them counterfeit- how? ( which you addressed)

I am an analytics and statistics guy. Basic numbers guy. The chances of 2 genuine Toyota ignition coils going bad in less than 2K miles, under easy conditions (CA weather, no heavy use) have to be pretty low. After replacing each with the old originals, the problems went away. From what I have read, the cheapie coils do not tend to last. Which makes them the most expensive coils you can buy.
With the 8 originals reinstalled, the old Tundra runs smoother then our electric Tesla. Well, almost anyways....

ABN thanks for your thoughts.

 

[mfewtrail]

Those Denso coils are about $50/each through rockauto for what it's worth. All my coils and spark plugs purchased from there have been the real deal and came from Parts Authority warehouses.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

I am an analytics and statistics guy. Basic numbers guy. The chances of 2 genuine Toyota ignition coils going bad in less than 2K miles, under easy conditions (CA weather, no heavy use) have to be pretty low. After replacing each with the old originals, the problems went away. From what I have read, the cheapie coils do not tend to last. Which makes them the most expensive coils you can buy.
With the 8 originals reinstalled, the old Tundra runs smoother then our electric Tesla. Well, almost anyways....

ABN thanks for your thoughts.

As am I which is why I fully concur that "statistically" it would be virtually impossible for you to get so many "bad" units in a group and they "magically' healed themselves when the old parts were installed.

I do tend to believe you either got true 'counterfeit" parts or "polished" old failed parts sold as new.

However, real world actual experience over almost 5 decades has shown me that it is best to not to jump to conclusions ( even obvious ones) because weird things can and do happen.

I do subscribe and usually default to Occam's Razor but it is not an absolute.