Experiences with installing chains?

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: raytseng
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
the other question is... how often does Caltrans really have the R3 condition? I heard it's not too often, so get snow tires and carry a set of cheap chains (for the R2 check).

If it's R3 condition... probably best not to drive.


There will never be R3 on the main touristy highways around tahoe. Especially 80 is an interstate, so it is a "national security" interest to be kept properly open. So they'll close it first before risking a crash that will shut it down completely and not by choice. 50 is also but i think of a 2nd priority.

R1 is also never on 80/50. If it is dangerous they'll jump right to R2. R1 will be declared on the smaller roads that aren't always controlled, but left to driver judgement. Often it can just be a sign that says when flashing put on chains, but really left to you.

I've encountered chain conditions on 80 and 50, as well as 89 between South Lake Tahoe and Tahoe City. I mentioned 89 as a headscratcher since there was almost no snow except a few patches. On that drive I saw one set of cables that had come off a wheel and I had to swerve around it. I'm guessing they caused a lot of damage while they were working loose. All of these had a Caltrans worker manning the checkpoint.

The only other chain checkpoint I've seen was in Yosemite along the length of Wawona Road. As I entered, there was a law enforcement ranger checking chains with his patrol SUV parked to the side. He was polite and professional, but he did sort of have a no-nonsense approach. In Yosemite you can find the chain conditions posted at most of the hotel lobbies. I remember Glacier Point Road to Badger Pass was usually listed as R1 in winter, even though there was more snow than I've seen for some R2 declarations. However, it was R1 when Wawona Road was R2, so there was no way to get there without passing a chain checkpoint. I also remember when Glacier Point Road was R1 but Wawona Road had no chain conditions.

The issue I have is that I know I probably won't have to chain up, but I'm worried about getting stuck or losing control because my tires may be inadequate. I'm wondering why California hasn't modified the chain rules for dedicated winter tires.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
the other question is... how often does Caltrans really have the R3 condition? I heard it's not too often, so get snow tires and carry a set of cheap chains (for the R2 check).

If it's R3 condition... probably best not to drive.


There will never be R3 on the main touristy highways around tahoe. Especially 80 is an interstate, so it is a "national security" interest to be kept properly open. So they'll close it first before risking a crash that will shut it down completely and not by choice. 50 is also but i think of a 2nd priority.

R1 is also never on 80/50. If it is dangerous they'll jump right to R2. R1 will be declared on the smaller roads that aren't always controlled, but left to driver judgement. Often it can just be a sign that says when flashing put on chains, but really left to you.

I've encountered chain conditions on 80 and 50, as well as 89 between South Lake Tahoe and Tahoe City. I mentioned 89 as a headscratcher since there was almost no snow except a few patches. On that drive I saw one set of cables that had come off a wheel and I had to swerve around it. I'm guessing they caused a lot of damage while they were working loose. All of these had a Caltrans worker manning the checkpoint.

The only other chain checkpoint I've seen was in Yosemite along the length of Wawona Road. As I entered, there was a law enforcement ranger checking chains with his patrol SUV parked to the side. He was polite and professional, but he did sort of have a no-nonsense approach. In Yosemite you can find the chain conditions posted at most of the hotel lobbies. I remember Glacier Point Road to Badger Pass was usually listed as R1 in winter, even though there was more snow than I've seen for some R2 declarations. However, it was R1 when Wawona Road was R2, so there was no way to get there without passing a chain checkpoint. I also remember when Glacier Point Road was R1 but Wawona Road had no chain conditions.

The issue I have is that I know I probably won't have to chain up, but I'm worried about getting stuck or losing control because my tires may be inadequate. I'm wondering why California hasn't modified the chain rules for dedicated winter tires.


keep in mind, you're talking about driving your WRX.

R1 means.... your WRX is exempted.
R2 means.... your WRX is exempted as long as you have M+S tires and have chains in the trunk.
R3 means.... your WRX needs chains.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/roadinfo/chcontrl.htm

I think their definition of snow tires is bad.... R1 means you can run summer tires on your WRX and you'll be compliant... and of course, M+S... all that means it needs to have a specific void to tread ratio.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
the other question is... how often does Caltrans really have the R3 condition? I heard it's not too often, so get snow tires and carry a set of cheap chains (for the R2 check).

If it's R3 condition... probably best not to drive.


There will never be R3 on the main touristy highways around tahoe. Especially 80 is an interstate, so it is a "national security" interest to be kept properly open. So they'll close it first before risking a crash that will shut it down completely and not by choice. 50 is also but i think of a 2nd priority.

R1 is also never on 80/50. If it is dangerous they'll jump right to R2. R1 will be declared on the smaller roads that aren't always controlled, but left to driver judgement. Often it can just be a sign that says when flashing put on chains, but really left to you.

I've encountered chain conditions on 80 and 50, as well as 89 between South Lake Tahoe and Tahoe City. I mentioned 89 as a headscratcher since there was almost no snow except a few patches. On that drive I saw one set of cables that had come off a wheel and I had to swerve around it. I'm guessing they caused a lot of damage while they were working loose. All of these had a Caltrans worker manning the checkpoint.

The only other chain checkpoint I've seen was in Yosemite along the length of Wawona Road. As I entered, there was a law enforcement ranger checking chains with his patrol SUV parked to the side. He was polite and professional, but he did sort of have a no-nonsense approach. In Yosemite you can find the chain conditions posted at most of the hotel lobbies. I remember Glacier Point Road to Badger Pass was usually listed as R1 in winter, even though there was more snow than I've seen for some R2 declarations. However, it was R1 when Wawona Road was R2, so there was no way to get there without passing a chain checkpoint. I also remember when Glacier Point Road was R1 but Wawona Road had no chain conditions.

The issue I have is that I know I probably won't have to chain up, but I'm worried about getting stuck or losing control because my tires may be inadequate. I'm wondering why California hasn't modified the chain rules for dedicated winter tires.


keep in mind, you're talking about driving your WRX.

R1 means.... your WRX is exempted.
R2 means.... your WRX is exempted as long as you have M+S tires and have chains in the trunk.
R3 means.... your WRX needs chains.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/roadinfo/chcontrl.htm

I think their definition of snow tires is bad.... R1 means you can run summer tires on your WRX and you'll be compliant... and of course, M+S... all that means it needs to have a specific void to tread ratio.

R1 still requires M+S labeled ("snow tread") tires to avoid chains, although it still works for RWD/FWD vehicles. I don't think checkpoints are set up for R1 conditions, but it could be something tacked on if a driver is pulled over.

Nobody should be riding on summer tires when it snows, even with chains. They'll get rock hard and will fishtail with FWD and lose steering input with RWD and a single pair of chains.

 

[raytseng]

R1 conditions are on the roads around the lake with little grade and when they are in slush conditions before it transitions into R2 or the other way to no controls. If someone spilled a slurpee on the road then it'd be R1.

Anybody from a real winter state would look at that and say [censored]? that's a condition? So yea, if you had summery tires and 4wd you'd be fine on that. However, usually R1 means a transition to R2 up the road if storm is coming in, or the other way around if things are clearing, so R1 isn't really a condition you plan for. It's like a yellow light on a traffic signal, something transitionary.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w

R1 still requires M+S labeled ("snow tread") tires to avoid chains, although it still works for RWD/FWD vehicles. I don't think checkpoints are set up for R1 conditions, but it could be something tacked on if a driver is pulled over.

Nobody should be riding on summer tires when it snows, even with chains. They'll get rock hard and will fishtail with FWD and lose steering input with RWD and a single pair of chains.


are you talking about specific to your WRX, or in general now?

Because for regular FWD and RWD vehicles,
(R1) Chains, traction devices or snow tires are required on the drive axle of all vehicles except four wheel/ all wheel drive vehicles
it specifically exempts 4WD/AWD in R1.

Like I said, the Caltrans definition for "snow tire" is wrong.

 

[raytseng]

You are right in that the terminology is old. In CA, snowtire means M+S. In canada it means winter snowflake.

But the rating is right. You're giving too much R1 too much credit. R1 is a slurpee on the road conditions.

They just don't want typeA personality people taking up their ferraris and (non-cayenne) porsches up on racing slicks on and then driving off the cliff. Again, R1 won't be on the major highways with major passes and grades. It'll be on the around town roads; and often transitionary.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: raytseng
You are right in that the terminology is old. In CA, snowtire means M+S. In canada it means winter snowflake.

But the rating is right. You're giving too much R1 too much credit. R1 is a slurpee on the road conditions.

They just don't want typeA personality people taking up their ferraris and (non-cayenne) porsches up on racing slicks on and then driving off the cliff. Again, R1 won't be on the major highways with major passes and grades. It'll be on the around town roads; and often transitionary.


As far as I know, only Quebec province has the winter tire (severe snow service) mandate). other provinces have considered adopting the mandate, but nothing passed.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: y_p_w

R1 still requires M+S labeled ("snow tread") tires to avoid chains, although it still works for RWD/FWD vehicles. I don't think checkpoints are set up for R1 conditions, but it could be something tacked on if a driver is pulled over.

Nobody should be riding on summer tires when it snows, even with chains. They'll get rock hard and will fishtail with FWD and lose steering input with RWD and a single pair of chains.


are you talking about specific to your WRX, or in general now?

Because for regular FWD and RWD vehicles,
(R1) Chains, traction devices or snow tires are required on the drive axle of all vehicles except four wheel/ all wheel drive vehicles
it specifically exempts 4WD/AWD in R1.

Like I said, the Caltrans definition for "snow tire" is wrong.

I recall that "snow tread tires" were required for R1 conditions without chains.

Quote:
http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist3/departments/mtce/drvgtip.htm

Chain Controls
R1: Chains or snow tread tires required. Snow tires must have a tread depth of 6/32" with a " M&S" imprint ont he tire's sidewall.

R2: Chains are required on all vehicles except four wheel drives or all-wheel drives with snow tread tires on all four wheels.

R3: Chains are required - all vehicles with no exceptions!

R1 and R2 are the most common chain controls. The highway will usually be closed before an R-3 control is imposed.

 

[y_p_w]

Here's the specific law. Caltrans translates (often inconsistently) these laws into their guidelines.

Quote:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=27001-28000&file=27450-27503

27459. No person shall operate any motor vehicle, trailer or
semitrailer upon any portion of a highway without tire traction
devices when that portion of the highway is signed for the
requirement of tire traction devices. In any case where a passenger
vehicle or motortruck having an unladen weight of 6,000 pounds or
less may be required by the Department of Transportation or local
authorities to be equipped with tire traction devices, the devices
shall be placed on at least two drive wheels, or the department or
local authorities may provide, in the alternative, that the vehicle
may be equipped with snow-tread tires on at least two drive wheels
when the weather and surface conditions at the time are such that the
stopping, tractive, and cornering abilities of the snow-tread tires
are adequate [R1 conditions]. The snow-tread tires shall be of a type and design
manufactured for use on snow as a replacement for tire chains or tire
traction devices, shall be in good condition, and shall bear the
marking of M-S, M/S, or other marking indicating that the tire was
manufactured for use on snow, or, in the case of tires purchased
before January 1, 1987, shall either bear the markings or, in the
opinion of the inspecting officer, comply with the tread pattern
requirements of Section 558.

27460. Any passenger vehicle or motortruck having an unladen weight
of 6,500 pounds or less and operated and equipped with four-wheel
drive and with snow-tread tires on all four drive wheels may be
operated upon any portion of a highway without tire traction devices,
notwithstanding the fact that the highway is signed for the
requirement of those devices and provided that tire traction devices
for at least one set of drive wheels are carried in or upon the
vehicle [R1 or R2 conditions]. The snow-tread tires shall meet the requirements specified
in Section 27459, and the vehicle shall not, when so operated, tow
another vehicle except as may be necessary to move a disabled vehicle
from the roadway.
No person shall use those tires on four-wheel drive vehicles in
place of tire traction devices whenever weather and roadway
conditions at the time are such that the stopping, tractive, and
cornering abilities of the tires are not adequate or whenever the
Department of Transportation or local authorities, in their
respective jurisdictions, place signs prohibiting their operation
unless equipped with tire traction devices [R3 conditions].

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: Donald
I also cannot see a vehicle like my Jeep with M&S tires in "part time 4WD" needing chains.


In snow, no. On wet ice...

When all the vehicles scrum at the bottom of two steep hills on wet ice, I can't get the chains on my Dakota part time 4wd with AT tires fast enough. OK it's only happened to me once, but it was really scary watching one AWD SUV after another slide down the hill and join the scrum.

It happened to me again this past snotty winter only this time in my Corolla. I was stuck in traffic so I pulled over and chained up all 4 wheels with cheap radial chains. It was amusing to crawl past all the AWD SUV's and chug right down the hill they all feared (for good reason), past the accident at the bottom (no injuries just dents), and up the next hill (where the oncoming lane had a line of fearful drivers waiting).

So yeah I carry 4 chains during Winter in all my vehicles (along with gloves and a tarp). "Just stay home" is good advice as long as you're not already at work.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: Donald
I also cannot see a vehicle like my Jeep with M&S tires in "part time 4WD" needing chains.


In snow, no. On wet ice...

When all the vehicles scrum at the bottom of two steep hills on wet ice, I can't get the chains on my Dakota part time 4wd with AT tires fast enough. OK it's only happened to me once, but it was really scary watching one AWD SUV after another slide down the hill and join the scrum.

It happened to me again this past snotty winter only this time in my Corolla. I was stuck in traffic so I pulled over and chained up all 4 wheels with cheap radial chains. It was amusing to crawl past all the AWD SUV's and chug right down the hill they all feared (for good reason), past the accident at the bottom (no injuries just dents), and up the next hill (where the oncoming lane had a line of fearful drivers waiting).

So yeah I carry 4 chains during Winter in all my vehicles (along with gloves and a tarp). "Just stay home" is good advice as long as you're not already at work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ratn_Wl8XU

I remember back when this happened, the driver of the Volvo SUV that pinballed into several parked cars refused to talk to the press after they identified him. He kept on trying to power his way out of icy conditions, and just kept on making it worse. In the end he just gave up and his vehicle just started sliding down a slight incline until it came to a stop pushing four vehicles.

Now the one thing I do remember is that when you lose all or almost all traction, the best thing to do is turn the steering wheel in the opposite direction to where you want to turn, which will right the ship. There's a Farmers Insurance radio ad that says "turn away from a skid". I think dirt track and snow racers are quite familiar with this technique.

Chains or cables will certainly allow for traction on ice that simply isn't possible even with the best winter tires (unless maybe they're studded). However, if it gets that bad, I'll probably just stay home. I'm thinking those conditions might hit my area about every once in 100 years.

 

[HWEaton]

Dear California,

Please use some common sense. If you feel a traveler needs more than this, close the road.

Sincerely,

The State that Knows Snow

 

[y_p_w]

Should have been "turn into a skid".

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: HWEaton

Dear California,

Please use some common sense. If you feel a traveler needs more than this, close the road.

Sincerely,

The State that Knows Snow

That's essentially California's standard. There is the R3 condition, but I've never heard of anyone actually driving in such conditions since the road will be closed. I think the possible condition is that someone is past the chain checkpoint after R3 is declared, and they might need chains to keep from getting stranded.

I've driven in near white-out conditions over US-50 leaving Lake Tahoe. Pretty nasty stuff. Made sure to have a full tank of gas, extra clothes, and even a sleeping bag just in case I got stuck.

 

[raytseng]

on 50/80 if it gets that bad, you won't get "stuck" by yourself. For the last groups before shutdown, they will tell you to wait until the plow comes around, then you will convoy and follow the plow.
If you end up being stuck for awhile, the next plow or truck out will at least see you, if the road is closed at that point, maybe they'll try to help you out if possible, or throw you a couple shovels of grit to get you turned around if it's a traction issue. If you're in bad shape they can help call a tow to get you and you'll have a big bill to pay later.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: raytseng
on 50/80 if it gets that bad, you won't get "stuck" by yourself. For the last groups before shutdown, they will tell you to wait until the plow comes around, then you will convoy and follow the plow.
If you end up being stuck for awhile, the next plow or truck out will at least see you, if the road is closed at that point, maybe they'll try to help you out if possible, or throw you a couple shovels of grit to get you turned around if it's a traction issue. If you're in bad shape they can help call a tow to get you and you'll have a big bill to pay later.

I do remember my first experience driving in the snow on 50. I specifically remember a big SUV that was stuck after plowing into a snowbank. I'm guessing that was interesting getting out. And I did see the plow in the other direction, with (I think) chains on the drive wheels and moving at a nice clip.

I also saw what I assumed was a RWD pickup with an empty bed. The driver was trying to get out of a parking lot with a small incline up to the road. He was basically spinning his wheels.

And the one thing that I think helps is rumble strips. If there's fresh snow it tends to cover the lines.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: Donald
I also cannot see a vehicle like my Jeep with M&S tires in "part time 4WD" needing chains.


In snow, no. On wet ice...

When all the vehicles scrum at the bottom of two steep hills on wet ice, I can't get the chains on my Dakota part time 4wd with AT tires fast enough. OK it's only happened to me once, but it was really scary watching one AWD SUV after another slide down the hill and join the scrum.

It happened to me again this past snotty winter only this time in my Corolla. I was stuck in traffic so I pulled over and chained up all 4 wheels with cheap radial chains. It was amusing to crawl past all the AWD SUV's and chug right down the hill they all feared (for good reason), past the accident at the bottom (no injuries just dents), and up the next hill (where the oncoming lane had a line of fearful drivers waiting).

So yeah I carry 4 chains during Winter in all my vehicles (along with gloves and a tarp). "Just stay home" is good advice as long as you're not already at work.


I have been considering getting a set of chains for the Focus. I guess I have been under the impression that they really wouldn't help much since I'm already running studded snow tires.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: Miller88

I have been considering getting a set of chains for the Focus. I guess I have been under the impression that they really wouldn't help much since I'm already running studded snow tires.


In your case it may not help much. A good studded tire should work well on wet ice.

Studded tires are not legal in most of Maryland including parts I often drive, so they're not a good option for me.

 

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: Donald
I also cannot see a vehicle like my Jeep with M&S tires in "part time 4WD" needing chains.


In snow, no. On wet ice...

When all the vehicles scrum at the bottom of two steep hills on wet ice, I can't get the chains on my Dakota part time 4wd with AT tires fast enough. OK it's only happened to me once, but it was really scary watching one AWD SUV after another slide down the hill and join the scrum.

It happened to me again this past snotty winter only this time in my Corolla. I was stuck in traffic so I pulled over and chained up all 4 wheels with cheap radial chains. It was amusing to crawl past all the AWD SUV's and chug right down the hill they all feared (for good reason), past the accident at the bottom (no injuries just dents), and up the next hill (where the oncoming lane had a line of fearful drivers waiting).

So yeah I carry 4 chains during Winter in all my vehicles (along with gloves and a tarp). "Just stay home" is good advice as long as you're not already at work.


I have been considering getting a set of chains for the Focus. I guess I have been under the impression that they really wouldn't help much since I'm already running studded snow tires.


In most cases, they wouldn't do much the studded snows don't already. However, in deep, heavy snow, a set of beefy chains will provide a bit more to bite into the snow with. I've been thinking of picking up a set of heavy v-bar chains for the Jeep for getting it through deeper snow than the Hakka R2s will handle on their own.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: Donald
I also cannot see a vehicle like my Jeep with M&S tires in "part time 4WD" needing chains.


In snow, no. On wet ice...

When all the vehicles scrum at the bottom of two steep hills on wet ice, I can't get the chains on my Dakota part time 4wd with AT tires fast enough. OK it's only happened to me once, but it was really scary watching one AWD SUV after another slide down the hill and join the scrum.

It happened to me again this past snotty winter only this time in my Corolla. I was stuck in traffic so I pulled over and chained up all 4 wheels with cheap radial chains. It was amusing to crawl past all the AWD SUV's and chug right down the hill they all feared (for good reason), past the accident at the bottom (no injuries just dents), and up the next hill (where the oncoming lane had a line of fearful drivers waiting).

So yeah I carry 4 chains during Winter in all my vehicles (along with gloves and a tarp). "Just stay home" is good advice as long as you're not already at work.


I have been considering getting a set of chains for the Focus. I guess I have been under the impression that they really wouldn't help much since I'm already running studded snow tires.


In most cases, they wouldn't do much the studded snows don't already. However, in deep, heavy snow, a set of beefy chains will provide a bit more to bite into the snow with. I've been thinking of picking up a set of heavy v-bar chains for the Jeep for getting it through deeper snow than the Hakka R2s will handle on their own.


I ended up giving away the set of snow tires I used last winter, but the problem I had with them is they dug a bit tooooo well. They are 215 85R16 (i might use the set we took off my father'st ruck). Tried to go through a snow drift up to the headlights.

Definitely put the AW4 and axle u joints to good use that day. Go ahead until it would dig in and start bouncing, then back, then ahead, then back, then ahead. It was like 12 degrees out and I managed to heat the engine up to like 220. Trans cooler was real toasty.

Meanwhile, the guys on bald all seasons had no problem just pinning it to the floor and floating along the top haha.