EV's dime a dozen? I think everyone and his brother will be making them.

[kschachn]

But the post was talking about EV efficiency compared to ICE.
How can one compare an EV 80% efficiency which is using some one else’s electric power when ICE produces its own power?
It’s dishonest to compare the two without comparing the power source of the EV and that source is the electric power plant.
The power source of the ICE vehicle is the ICE mounted on the vechicle.

So if your going to claim efficiency in respect to comparing it to ICE vehicles which produce its own power then you have to take into account where the EVs power is produced, you can’t ignore the energy efficiency of the power plants used to produce the power for the EV since the EV doesn’t produce its own power.

Its wrong to call Electric cars efficient and actually post numbers on that, that is ridiculous as electric cars do not produce their own power, electric cars get their power from another source. So you need to calculate in the efficiency of that source which is the power plant supplying the power to the EV, at best as I understand it, the power produced and sent to you home to charge your EV is 50% efficient and that is AT BEST>

Also to say ICE will go away in our lifetimes is not going to happen, a significant public will keep demanding them until a solution is found for the outdated technology of charging batteries. Once again, H2 is one solution, the EV would produce its own power no polltion except water vapor, no need for obsolete battery power.

You are posting complete uneducated nonsense here and don't realize it. I must be on ignore since you seem to be oblivious to any of it.

 

[supton]

Lots of speculation here. Anyone want to go looking for a well to wheels analysis? I think I did in the past and don't feel like looking now.

IIRC the gas powered turbines run around 50%, add in 10% loss for transmission lines, then maybe 10% charging and discharging losses (charge the battery, then discharge during usage). I come up with about 40% overall. Now add in nuke, solar, hydro and whatever might be feeding the grid, and... ? meanwhile it seems ICE is currently capped around 40%, diesel or gasoline, with the issue being that both hit 0% if just sitting and idling, and not a lot more when stone cold. Meanwhile that 40% for ICE is while under a decent load, anything other is not hitting 40%. Which is why hybrid can eek out more, even on the highway--it does the old pulse and glide, but without the attendant speed change.

IIRC prior discussions revealed that a dirty coal fired plant generated about the same CO2 per mile as a 40mpg gasoline powered car.

Hydrogen is just a fancy battery technology. Someone else can look into it, but I recall being told that compressing a gas is like 50% efficient--anytime you have heat being generated, you have heat loss.

 

[SHOZ]

CO2 is not the problem. It's plant food and the base for all carbon based living organisms.

In rural Illinois good luck putting in more windmills or solar farms. They can't hardly get the easements for the transmission lines and have stopped a big multistate transmission line for the renewables in the upper Midwest area.

Three solar farms have been approved in my county but it's been three years and still not started on. Farmland is more valuable for growing food. Though half of that is used for ethanol. I do see some solar farms going up north of me on contaminated ground.

 

[supton]

It's plant food and the base for all carbon based living organisms.

While true it overlooks the fact that non-renewable fuels release long sequestered carbon that was packed into the ground when the earth was much hotter. While ignoring that, it has not been shown to renew itself and is apt to run out, or get all the harder to get, leading to an increase in cost. Which then trickles down to everything that is dependent on it, or at least dependent on it being cheap.

 

[SHOZ]

While true it overlooks the fact that non-renewable fuels release long sequestered carbon that was packed into the ground when the earth was much hotter. While ignoring that, it has not been shown to renew itself and is apt to run out, or get all the harder to get, leading to an increase in cost. Which then trickles down to everything that is dependent on it, or at least dependent on it being cheap.

And it is self regulating as the plant growth will explode storing more C. They don't run CO2 at 1000-1500ppm in greenhouses for nothing.

 

[supton]

And it is self regulating as the plant growth will explode storing more C. They don't run CO2 at 1000-1500ppm in greenhouses for nothing.

Sure, but would that work over the entirety of the earth? Lots of area with no green stuff. And last time I was in a greenhouse, it was rather warm and humid, great for plants, but not what I'd call comfortable.

Trust me, I'd love to go back to my V8 ways.

 

[SHOZ]

Sure, but would that work over the entirety of the earth? Lots of area with no green stuff. And last time I was in a greenhouse, it was rather warm and humid, great for plants, but not what I'd call comfortable.

Trust me, I'd love to go back to my V8 ways.

The entire earth will not be one climate. What do you do now when you feel uncomfortable?

Tear down the Amazon or Build up the Amazon what's the goal?

 

[supton]

What do you do now when you feel uncomfortable?

I either pump the heat outside, or I make heat that will eventually leak outside. And use energy in the process--wish it were different, but no getting around it.

 

[97prizm]

I think with all of the EV start-ups it will be similar to gasoline manufacturers. Look at how many at the start of the early 1900s are now no longer in business. Horatio Jackson crossed the usa in a Winton Touring car.

 

[SHOZ]

 

[eljefino]

And it is self regulating as the plant growth will explode storing more C. They don't run CO2 at 1000-1500ppm in greenhouses for nothing.

Every peer-reviewed scientific study on the effects of CO2 on the... earth... don't think this feedback system is enough to remain stable.

 

[SHOZ]

Every peer-reviewed scientific study on the effects of CO2 on the... earth... don't think this feedback system is enough to remain stable.

Peer review just means we all think alike....... Where do you think all the coal came from and why dinosaurs were so big?

 

[OVERKILL]

Lots of speculation here. Anyone want to go looking for a well to wheels analysis? I think I did in the past and don't feel like looking now.

IIRC the gas powered turbines run around 50%, add in 10% loss for transmission lines, then maybe 10% charging and discharging losses (charge the battery, then discharge during usage). I come up with about 40% overall. Now add in nuke, solar, hydro and whatever might be feeding the grid, and... ? meanwhile it seems ICE is currently capped around 40%, diesel or gasoline, with the issue being that both hit 0% if just sitting and idling, and not a lot more when stone cold. Meanwhile that 40% for ICE is while under a decent load, anything other is not hitting 40%. Which is why hybrid can eek out more, even on the highway--it does the old pulse and glide, but without the attendant speed change.

IIRC prior discussions revealed that a dirty coal fired plant generated about the same CO2 per mile as a 40mpg gasoline powered car.

Hydrogen is just a fancy battery technology. Someone else can look into it, but I recall being told that compressing a gas is like 50% efficient--anytime you have heat being generated, you have heat loss.

I posted a well-to-wheels analysis for both ICE and EV vehicles a while back. Got some interesting comments in that thread.

 

[wpod]

The BITOGers can kick and scream and come up with objections but the Electrics are coming....

I don't mind.

 

[measureman]

Long before that happens the oil companies will have abandoned refining/selling gasoline and diesel for vehicles, there won't be any fuel available for car shows or parades. Or do you think the oil companies will still keep a few refineries open so that a dozen ICE vehicles can do their annual July 4th parades?

If everything goes electric they will import gas from Mexico.

 

[CKN]

Lots of speculation here. Anyone want to go looking for a well to wheels analysis? I think I did in the past and don't feel like looking now.

IIRC the gas powered turbines run around 50%, add in 10% loss for transmission lines, then maybe 10% charging and discharging losses (charge the battery, then discharge during usage). I come up with about 40% overall. Now add in nuke, solar, hydro and whatever might be feeding the grid, and... ? meanwhile it seems ICE is currently capped around 40%, diesel or gasoline, with the issue being that both hit 0% if just sitting and idling, and not a lot more when stone cold. Meanwhile that 40% for ICE is while under a decent load, anything other is not hitting 40%. Which is why hybrid can eek out more, even on the highway--it does the old pulse and glide, but without the attendant speed change.

IIRC prior discussions revealed that a dirty coal fired plant generated about the same CO2 per mile as a 40mpg gasoline powered car.

Hydrogen is just a fancy battery technology. Someone else can look into it, but I recall being told that compressing a gas is like 50% efficient--anytime you have heat being generated, you have heat loss.

While I appreciate your information and post-this is all mute. The agenda is electric cars. The spending by auto manufacturers is so massive there won't be any going back. Are they ultimately clearer or dirtier factoring in how the electricity us generated Who knows? But it doesn't mater. Once charging times, range, charging infrastructure is in place-they should ultimately provide a much better vehicle ownership experience than ICE cars-regardless of the objections thrown on here-by those still lamenting the loss of keys to push button start......

 

[E365]

A 5000 gal "diesel" tanker truck will go at least 55,000 miles on it's 5000 gal tank of fuel. Put another way, the energy density of petroleum is so high, moving it consumes little of itself. I deliberately chose the worst example. As trains, pipelines and ships are ever more efficient.

The issue is not so much that energy is wasted transporting hydrocarbons for vehicles, it's that fuels must also be transported nationwide, to 23,000+ power plants. The stack of losses involved in EV's is pretty stunning. Regenerative braking is the only thing that skews the numbers to a favorable place. And, hybrids can do that too.

BTU's consumed per mile driven...

But this argument bring me right back to my original issue. Of course you need to transport fuels to power plants. Just as you need to transport crude oil to refineries.

And 11MPG? Do you have a source on that? Seems awfully generous. Trucking fuels is particularly inefficient because the trucks drive empty back to the fuel terminal. So the effective MPG is almost cut in half.

 

[Spyderman24_7]

You realize no matter who is in charge the vehicle manufacturers are spending many millions in EV development and there will not be any going back? Right now-ICE (motor) development is basically stalled or very limited.

Here's what's projected for electric vehicle manufacturing through 2030

Automakers worldwide will spend more than a half trillion dollars on electric vehicle manufacturing through 2030, according to a new report.

electrek.co

Global automakers now target $515B on EVs, batteries

Industry experts are concerned that demand for EVs could fall short of targets without substantial additional incentives, more spending on charging infrastructure and increased grid capacity.

europe.autonews.com

Certainly no guarantee the public will embrace what some manufacturers crank out either... I don't really care what the future holds as I won't live forever and will continue to drive the vehicle I own/maintain as long as gas is available. I will keep popcorn onhand so I have something to do when I see EVs up in flames, lmaoa....

 

[Rmay635703]

Waiting to charge the battery is nothing like 10 minutes to fill the tank. Gas stations going out of biz too?

Expensive dumps will take the place of expensive fills?

Although the novelties like hohos combined with a rest room and charger will likely be required no matter what, so maybe in a hundred years children will wonder why the place you get big gulps and take a deuce is called a gas station.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The agenda is electric cars. The spending by auto manufacturers is so massive there won't be any going back.

I think automakers also see jumping to making EVs as a way to get the ever increasing CAFE goals off their back. Instead of putting more research and money into squeaking out more MPG, they would rather jump on the hot EV selling bandwagon.

Anyone know if CAFE allows a manufacture to roll their EVs in to their feet overall CAFE calculations?

Or will CAFE someday come up with an EV efficiency standard that it must get x miles per kWh (or MPG equivalent) in order to not be fined/tax?