EV's dime a dozen? I think everyone and his brother will be making them.

[OVERKILL]

I hate seeing China kicking our butt in E.V's and Renewables.

China dominating on VRE is because they can. Same reason they are building 10's of nuclear reactors and the US is struggling to build two. I got into this in another thread in regards to the west losing their way on large infrastructure. China's VRE supply chain is appalling, but that doesn't stop the west from buying from it because it is cheap.

 

[kschachn]

Yeah, crazy and I think people think to narrow. I believe EVs will make their own electricity using H2. Just a tiny batter will be used.

Can you please stop posting thermodynamic nonsense in all these threads? You keep doing it despite explanations as to how it’s not possible.

 

[kschachn]

I call B.S. As electricity is generated and transmitted most of it is lost as heat and other conversion losses long before it reaches it's final destination. My house is natural gas heated, which is vastly cheaper than electric heating!

It’s because you’re using a primary fuel as heat. You’re correct that using electricity to produce heat is silly, you’re putting several processes in between that are unnecessary.

 

[Rmay635703]

Until off peak becomes peak because all the load gets shifted.

If peak is 24/7 and loads match power availability perfect and evenly the grid operators will be in 7th heaven fever dream land.

 

[alarmguy]

Electric cars are roughly 80% efficient vs 20% for gasoline cars.

No, the electricity the power plant produces and sends to your home to charge the EV is at best 50% efficient by the time it gets to your house, then based on your statement, loses another 20% once used in the EV.
My post is based as I understand it from someone in these forums who is the industry. I see some other posts in here as well.

Its wrong to call Electric cars efficient and actually post numbers on that, that is ridiculous as electric cars do not produce their own power, electric cars get their power from another source. So you need to calculate in the efficiency of that source which is the power plant supplying the power to the EV, at best as I understand it, the power produced and sent to you home to charge your EV is 50% efficient and that is AT BEST>

Also to say ICE will go away in our lifetimes is not going to happen, a significant public will keep demanding them until a solution is found for the outdated technology of charging batteries. Once again, H2 is one solution, the EV would produce its own power no polltion except water vapor, no need for obsolete battery power.
One other possibly is for solid state batteries that can charge as fast as a gas pumps pumps gas if that ever comes to be.

 

[Sj08]

As EV sales climb, internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle sales will slowly decrease — as seen over the last couple years.

In theory that would lower gas demand and increase supply, bringing gas prices down.
But someone in charge will do everything they can to stop oil drilling, pipelines, and updated refineries.

 

[CKN]

In theory that would lower gas demand and increase supply, bringing gas prices down.
But someone in charge will do everything they can to stop oil drilling, pipelines, and updated refineries.

You realize no matter who is in charge the vehicle manufacturers are spending many millions in EV development and there will not be any going back? Right now-ICE (motor) development is basically stalled or very limited.
https://electrek.co/2022/04/12/here...-electric-vehicle-manufacturing-through-2030/

https://europe.autonews.com/environmentemissions/global-automakers-now-target-515b-evs-batteries

 

[Vercingetorix]

No, the electricity the power plant produces and sends to your home to charge the EV is at best 50% efficient by the time it gets to your house, then based on your statement, loses another 20% once used in the EV.
My post is based as I understand it from someone in these forums who is the industry. I see some other posts in here as well.

Its wrong to call Electric cars efficient and actually post numbers on that, that is ridiculous as electric cars do not produce their own power, electric cars get their power from another source. So you need to calculate in the efficiency of that source which is the power plant supplying the power to the EV, at best as I understand it, the power produced and sent to you home to charge your EV is 50% efficient and that is AT BEST>

Also to say ICE will go away in our lifetimes is not going to happen, a significant public will keep demanding them until a solution is found for the outdated technology of charging batteries. Once again, H2 is one solution, the EV would produce its own power no polltion except water vapor, no need for obsolete battery power.
One other possibly is for solid state batteries that can charge as fast as a gas pumps pumps gas if that ever comes to be.

Nowhere did I mention transmission efficiency or any other loses. In reference to what I quoted,
135,000,000,000 gallons = 15,390,000,000,000,000 BTU = 4,510,364,400,000 KWHs
Electric cars will convert roughly 80% of the energy they have into useful motion. Fossil fuel cars about 20%. That was not factored into the above equivalencies. That is all I am saying.

 

[E365]

Nowhere did I mention transmission efficiency or any other loses. In reference to what I quoted,
135,000,000,000 gallons = 15,390,000,000,000,000 BTU = 4,510,364,400,000 KWHs
Electric cars will convert roughly 80% of the energy they have into useful motion. Fossil fuel cars about 20%. That was not factored into the above equivalencies. That is all I am saying.

It’s funny too that the people who argue “but transmission losses!” with electricity seem to rarely mention the energy it takes to truck/transport/pump 369,000,000 gallons or 2,214,000,000 pounds of gasoline PER DAY in the United States. Like it’s just magic that gasoline shows up at the retail pumps.

Comes to about 809,000,000,000 pounds per year. And that doesn’t even include diesel….

Easily past a TRILLION pounds of liquid fuel annually - a number the human brain can hardly fathom.

Source:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=23&t=10

 

[eljefino]

If the US didn’t have its head in its arse it could do like Europe and use power plants to distribute hot distilled water to local areas around the plant.

That raises a modern 50% efficient coal fired plant up to nearly 100%, my home is only 6 miles from 3 hydrocarbon power plants.

The 80-100F water that comes out the head could reduce water heating and home heating costs

This used to happen with "company towns" like a paper mill-- there'd be a "steam plant" and steam pipes through the neighborhoods, heating the company-owned worker housing.

 

[OVERKILL]

This used to happen with "company towns" like a paper mill-- there'd be a "steam plant" and steam pipes through the neighborhoods, heating the company-owned worker housing.

It's happening in China right now, the EPR's they brought online are providing district heating.

 

[JeffKeryk]

It's happening in China right now, the EPR's they brought online are providing district heating.

Google and the city of San Jose have reached an agreement to develop around 80 acres of land in downtown San Jose that will also serve as a mixed-use residential, retail, and open space for Google employees and the city’s residents.
The futuristic campus will allow a new flexible work policy for post-pandemic life that expects 60 percent of Google employees to only spend three days in the office, with some 20 percent of the company’s staff to work fully remotely from home.

The project could take anywhere from 10 to 30 years to be completed. Google is currently building similar, but smaller projects in Sunnyvale and Mountain View, as well as in New York.

 

[alarmguy]

It’s funny too that the people who argue “but transmission losses!” with electricity seem to rarely mention the energy it takes to truck/transport/pump 369,000,000 gallons or 2,214,000,000 pounds of gasoline PER DAY in the United States. Like it’s just magic that gasoline shows up at the retail pumps.

Comes to about 809,000,000,000 pounds per year. And that doesn’t even include diesel….

Easily past a TRILLION pounds of liquid fuel annually - a number the human brain can hardly fathom.

Source:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=23&t=10

But then you would have to factor in the same for the power plant operation and fuel requirements to produce and transmit power for your EV.

All I am saying is EV proponents seem to forget that power for their vehicles is produced someplace else, transported and stored by the EVs battery.

So if your going to claim efficiency in respect to comparing it to ICE vehicles which produce its own power then you have to take into account where the EVs power is produced, you can’t ignore the energy efficiency of the power plants used to produce the power for the EV since the EV doesn’t produce its own power.

Power plants burn all kinds of fuel, including oil, coal and natural gas also can be nasty and the demand is going to be super intense in the USA if EVs ever get up to 10% of the vehicles on the road never mind 20%. Right now we are only a fraction of 1%

The only way out of this is a massive nuclear program and infrastructure program at a incalculable cost or H2 EVs which produce their own electricity, sooner or later, which for the USA will be later, this will have to be addressed for EVs to be a realistic replacement for ICE.
To believe otherwise is believing in the good fairy.

Let’s spin it another way, where is the electricity going to come from to replace the trillion pounds you claim of liquid fuel for ICE vehicle’s?
It’s not going to come from thin air,
It’s going to be burned by power plants at tops 50% efficiency or again H2 powered EVs which will produce their own power.

The EV is a battery powered stepping stone at this point. It will be 50 or more years before electric power plants will be able to produce enough power at 50% efficiency to replace your claimed trillion and it will be burning the same fuels you the ICE vechicle uses at this point in time.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Not BS. The amount of waste heat (energy) in an ICE vehicle is massive

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv-ev.shtml

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

Their sources: SAE, Argonne National Laboratory, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, MIT, Univ. Michigan.

To add ... there is no energy lost from engine "idling" with an EV. This was from a study breaking down the gasoline energy distribuition in typical ICE city driving conditions.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Its wrong to call Electric cars efficient and actually post numbers on that, that is ridiculous as electric cars do not produce their own power, electric cars get their power from another source. So you need to calculate in the efficiency of that source which is the power plant supplying the power to the EV, at best as I understand it, the power produced and sent to you home to charge your EV is 50% efficient and that is AT BEST>

To look at an apples to apples comparison ... how much energy in used to produce and get a gallon of gasoline into a gas tank?

 

[ZeeOSix]

In theory that would lower gas demand and increase supply, bringing gas prices down.
But someone in charge will do everything they can to stop oil drilling, pipelines, and updated refineries.

Oil companies and gas refineries aren't going to keep production up if demand goes way down ... it would cost them too much money and they won't make as much net profit. They will cut back production, close oil wells and refineries, and lay people off to maintain an acceptable profit margin for the money they spend to produce product.

 

[SHOZ]

Waiting to charge the battery is nothing like 10 minutes to fill the tank. Gas stations going out of biz too?

 

[alarmguy]

To look at an apples to apples comparison ... how much energy in used to produce and get a gallon of gasoline into a gas tank?

If you wanted to go that direction you would then have to ask how much energy is used to produce and get the fuel to the electric power plant,

But the post was talking about EV efficiency compared to ICE.
How can one compare an EV 80% efficiency which is using some one else’s electric power when ICE produces its own power?
It’s dishonest to compare the two without comparing the power source of the EV and that source is the electric power plant.
The power source of the ICE vehicle is the ICE mounted on the vechicle.

 

[ZZman]

you mean at night when the solar panels are dead?

There are other sources other than solar in a good mix. You also are forgetting energy storage systems.

 

[Cujet]

It’s funny too that the people who argue “but transmission losses!” with electricity seem to rarely mention the energy it takes to truck/transport/pump 369,000,000 gallons or 2,214,000,000 pounds of gasoline PER DAY in the United States. Like it’s just magic that gasoline shows up at the retail pumps.

A 5000 gal "diesel" tanker truck will go at least 55,000 miles on it's 5000 gal tank of fuel. Put another way, the energy density of petroleum is so high, moving it consumes little of itself. I deliberately chose the worst example. As trains, pipelines and ships are ever more efficient.

The issue is not so much that energy is wasted transporting hydrocarbons for vehicles, it's that fuels must also be transported nationwide, to 23,000+ power plants. The stack of losses involved in EV's is pretty stunning. Regenerative braking is the only thing that skews the numbers to a favorable place. And, hybrids can do that too.

BTU's consumed per mile driven...