wemay
Site Donor 2023
This.
EV snow plows falling short.
- Thread starter FreedomOne
- Start date
The town I worked in had 8 mack dump/plows that sat most of the time outside of plowing season.
When they contracted out the garbage pickup they had 2 garbage trucks sitting all year until plow season. This was in NJ.
Now scale that up to the 19,000 urban lane miles of NYC. Sound like a good idea?
(For reference, the division I work for has approximately 250 plow trucks for 4300 lane miles. Most municipal routes will have more lane miles assigned to them for a lower level of service).
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Not trying to be a d*ck, well, maybe a little, but this is why we don't measure capacity using a unit of distance. It's like how many dildos does it take to pickle an ostrich? Icecream, because bananas drive pencils.
I've taken the InsideEV's efficiency data and added a column for kWh/100 miles. As you can see, it ranges from 22 all the way to 49. The average being ~32 isn't a useful figure outside this spreadsheet, when the range is 27.04.
| Vehicle | Price | Real Range (Miles) | EPA Range (Miles) | Difference | Efficiency (mi/kWh) | kWh/100 miles |
| 2020 Hyundai Ioniq EV | $33,045.00 | 171.00 | 170.00 | 0.01 | 4.50 | 22.22 |
| 2022 Lucid Air Dream Edition Range | $169,000.00 | 500.00 | 520.00 | -0.04 | 4.30 | 23.26 |
| 2021 Tesla Model 3 AWD | $48,990.00 | 310.00 | 353.00 | -0.12 | 4.25 | 23.53 |
| 2019 Tesla Model 3 AWD | $47,990.00 | 290.00 | 322.00 | -0.10 | 4.25 | 23.53 |
| 2020 Hyundai Kona EV | $37,190.00 | 238.00 | 258.00 | -0.08 | 3.90 | 25.64 |
| 2020 Tesla Model Y AWD | $49,990.00 | 276.00 | 316.00 | -0.13 | 3.85 | 25.97 |
| 2020 MINI Cooper SE | $29,990.00 | 108.00 | 110.00 | -0.02 | 3.70 | 27.03 |
| 2022 Mercedes EQS 450+ | $102,310.00 | 395.00 | 350.00 | 0.13 | 3.67 | 27.25 |
| 2023 Porsche Taycan RWD 93 kWh Battery (New Software) | $81,150.00 | 305.00 | 225.00 | 0.36 | 3.66 | 27.32 |
| 2019 BMW i3s BEV | $47,650.00 | 141.00 | 153.00 | -0.08 | 3.60 | 27.78 |
| 2021 Porsche Taycan RWD 93 kWh Battery (#2) | $85,470.00 | 297.00 | 225.00 | 0.32 | 3.50 | 28.57 |
| 2020 BMW i3s Rex | $51,500.00 | 126.00 | 126.00 | 0.00 | 3.50 | 28.57 |
| 2015 Chevy Spark EV | $25,995.00 | 63.00 | 82.00 | -0.23 | 3.50 | 28.57 |
| 2021 Porsche Taycan RWD 93 kWh Battery (#1) | $85,470.00 | 293.00 | 225.00 | 0.30 | 3.49 | 28.65 |
| 2020 Chevrolet Bolt EV | $36,620.00 | 226.00 | 259.00 | -0.13 | 3.40 | 29.41 |
| 2020 Nissan LEAF SL + | $43,900.00 | 190.00 | 215.00 | -0.12 | 3.40 | 29.41 |
| 2018 smart Electric Drive | $28,750.00 | 51.00 | 57.00 | -0.11 | 3.40 | 29.41 |
| 2020 Porsche Taycan 4S 93 kWh | $103,800.00 | 278.00 | 203.00 | 0.37 | 3.32 | 30.12 |
| 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid w/21" Arachnid | $134,490.00 | 300.00 | 348.00 | -0.12 | 3.30 | 30.30 |
| 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E California Route 1 Edition | $50,400.00 | 287.00 | 305.00 | -0.06 | 3.30 | 30.30 |
| 2022 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD 20" Wheels | $56,400.00 | 245.00 | 274.00 | -10.60 | 3.30 | 30.30 |
| 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E AWD Std Range | $50,300.00 | 226.00 | 211.00 | 0.07 | 3.30 | 30.30 |
| 2022 BMW iX xDrive50 w/20" Wheels | $83,200.00 | 345.00 | 324.00 | 0.07 | 3.25 | 30.77 |
| 2023 Cadillac Lyriq RWD w/20" Wheels | $62,990.00 | 330.00 | 312.00 | 0.06 | 3.15 | 31.75 |
| 2021 Polestar Polestar 2 | $59,990.00 | 226.00 | 233.00 | -0.03 | 3.12 | 32.05 |
| 2023 Ford Mustang Mach-E Premium AWD Extended Range | $66,295.00 | 285.00 | 290.00 | -0.02 | 3.10 | 32.26 |
| 2021 Porsche Taycan 4 Cross Turismo 93 kWh Battery | $93,700.00 | 252.00 | 215.00 | 0.17 | 3.10 | 32.26 |
| 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 AWD SEL w/19" Wheels | $45,900.00 | 227.00 | 256.00 | -0.11 | 3.10 | 32.26 |
| 2021 Volkswagen ID.4 First Edition | $43,995.00 | 234.00 | 250.00 | -0.06 | 3.00 | 33.33 |
| 2022 BMW i4 M50 w/20" Wheels | $65,900.00 | 239.00 | 227.00 | 0.05 | 2.95 | 33.90 |
| 2021 Porsche Taycan Turbo Cross Turismo 93 kWh Battery | $153,500.00 | 246.00 | 204.00 | 0.21 | 2.92 | 34.25 |
| 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 AWD Limited w/20" Wheels | $54,500.00 | 195.00 | 256.00 | -0.24 | 2.70 | 37.04 |
| 2022 Jaguar I-Pace EV400 w/22" Wheels | $69,900.00 | 195.00 | 234.00 | -0.17 | 2.37 | 42.19 |
| 2019 Audi e-tron | $74,800.00 | 188.00 | 204.00 | -0.08 | 2.30 | 43.48 |
| 2022 Ford Lightning Pro Standard Range | $39,974.00 | 214.00 | 230.00 | -0.07 | 2.20 | 45.45 |
| 2022 Ford Lightning Lariat Extended Range | $77,474.00 | 270.00 | 320.00 | -0.16 | 2.10 | 47.62 |
| 2022 Rivian R1T Large Pack, 20" all-terrain tires | $79,500.00 | 254.00 | 314.00 | -0.19 | 2.03 | 49.26 |
Not only that but EVs seems to have even larger swings in efficiency based on weight than ICE vehicles and if we used the same approach to ICE we'd compare everything based on how far it can go in a gallon irrespective of these differences.
What we need is something easy to understand by the average person similar to MPG. It's dumb that we look at these cars based on range. Obviously this comes about because of charging times instead of fueling. No one brags about their gasoline range unless they're arguing with someone with an EV.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Weight, temperature, speed...etc. All have a considerable impact on how far you can go on a kWh, and it's amplified over their ICE counterparts as you note.
The assumption that led to this is that people are too stupid to use kWh as the EV equivalent to gallons, and so we've invented this absolutely moronic method of trying to shoehorn distance into a place it doesn't work (capacity and rate of charge). It's like trying to describe how many cow farts it takes to heat my house.
The problem is that we're just not used to the figures. We should be using kw per mile(or 100 miles) for efficiency. I still glaze over when I read about it. My wife watches her efficiency numbers in the Model 3 and I never look at that screen which is odd for me because I calculate fuel economy on every tank of fuel. For some reason I can't seem to be bothered by learning it yet, but it's starting to make more sense. It's almost like with the cost being so much lower than gasoline for me and that tracking fuel economy is also a way to make sure everything is working properly and I'd have other signs in an EV first. I'm probably one of the least converted EV owners there is only because it's not my daily, but I still drive it 2-3 times a week.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yep, but we all learned to use Metric up here in the GWN, so change is definitely doable. Also, our home electricity bills are already in kWh, so the unit is already in use, people just need to get used to it, which I think will come naturally with time.
I dunno--we measure vehicle "efficiency" (a unitless concept) using miles per gallon (or L per 100km), which isn't efficiency (power out / power in, or work out / work in, or energy out / energy in). Multiply this by the number of people insisting they won't buy EV until they can recharge just as fast as refill ICE and I'm not surprised at the attempt.
I get it, I'd rather have the numbers too. Battery capacity and a rough idea as to the miles per kWhr, and charging rates, and I can figure it out from there (even take into account non-linear charging rates). But while my jumping off point is just past that (do I need know what the battery chemistry is? or a chart of charging rate vs temperature so I could include that in an ballpark estimate of charge time?) the majority of people are in over their head long before then--they couldn't figure out mpg if you spotted them both numbers, a calculator and which operand to use.
Where were you when the US was supposed to go metric? we could have used more like you... it would have been nice if the conversion had already happened before my time.
Some in positions of power have definitely cart before the horse'd it. Others have seen the shortcomings and are problem solving. Toyota is supposedly getting into the solid state game (I think I read that...?) which could be a huge boost.
If we really care about the environment, the correct solution would be trillions in public transit and not one car for one person. But nobody spilling that idea would get reelected.
So we'll currently have to do with cheaper electric rates if I charge an electric car at night (using solar, I assume...), feeling good about mining lithium instead of drilling for oil, etc. We're in a weird sort of middle ground, which doesn't mean electric is dead, just means it'll hopefully get better with more advancements in the future.
4WD
$50 site donor 2025
Except the most important purchase - built with 2x4’s and sold by the SF
… and then when cooking in that beautiful new kitchen - you know …
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yes, but those are both based on hard units, one being of capacity (gallons), and the other distance (miles), while mph is already a proper unit for rate of travel, using distance (miles) over time. Adding a secondary, and wholly inappropriate, usage profile to try and apply it to something that already has the appropriate units available is nuts. I don't accept that this "dumbing down" is necessary, while I understand why it exists.
Yeah, I mean, if the charger shows how many kWh it has put in the vehicle, it doesn't even need to show the charge rate (kW), though some may find that beneficial. Your gas pump doesn't show you how many litres per hour it is moving, but you can readily see how many litres/gallons it has moved in the time you are looking at it, and assuming you know the size of the tank, you'll have a rough idea of how long it's going to take. The same can be applied to EV's, using kWh, but of course, at present, this is considerably slower.
Hahahaha, yeah, I mean, there are memes out there because of this, Americans measuring things in crocodiles and so they don't have to use meters, lol.Where were you when the US was supposed to go metric? we could have used more like you... it would have been nice if the conversion had already happened before my time.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yeah the pathway to electric utopia should have been hybrids, plug in hybrids then full electric. With some applications only going as far as hybrid or staying liquid fueled only, becoming plug in hybrid or full electric after another 20 to 40 years of battery tech improvements.
Then why the senseless push to go all electric when everyone knows it could fail because batteries are just too expensive and likely won't hold enough power to do the job? Why not attempt to do hybrids that are guaranteed to not fail aside from just poor engineering or some mechanical failure?
Anything I could say would undoubtably be bitog forbidden material
so I'll just say some good points came up that I agree with.
At the risk of repeating myself, it was a test bed. Aside from a couple of states no one is stating it has to be electric only. Car companies are building electric vehicles to help meet tightening MPG standards, which if they weren't making such massive heavy vehicles it probably wouldn't take so many EVs to offset it.
Hybrids guaranteed to not fail? I wish I could get a guarantee like that.
Without a push, there'd be little forward momentum. You've chosen to depict it as senseless.
We do have hybrids of various sorts, including partial electric models. They're pretty dependable these days. FWIW, I've been using hybrids, and know people who have been using hybrids, for more than a decade, and there has not been a single failure or issue with the hybrid system across several platforms. My experience has been with several Toyota products, a couple of Hondas, three Ford products, and a Hyundai.
There is no such thing as a system that is "guaranteed to not fail." IMO, hybrid systems are quite dependable these days.
Battery vehicles have been around for over 130 years. If it ain’t sorted by now, it’s NOT because they haven’t had intelligent people working on it. Why do you think the ICE became so popular, so fast? Because it works.
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