Ester 2-stroke cleanliness

[Alain2]

Marketing claims that ester is the cleanest 2-stroke oil available while literatures claim that polybutene is actually the cleanest.

Evidence of this claim is that most ester oils appear to “only“ qualify as JASO FC instead of the cleanest JASO FD, clearly showing that ester oil is not as clean as a mineral/polybutene.

I do not challenge the idea that, in general, ester JASO FC oils have better lubricity than JASO FD mineral/polybutene.

The reason I post this is to suggest that ester JASO FC oils (often marketed as racing oil) are rarely the best oil you can buy unless:
- you actually achieve substantial high rpm, or
- you like scrubbing carbon off pistons and combustion chambers, or
- you mix to leaner ratio such as 60:1 to 100:1.

There are always middle ground to rules, Motul 710 Ester and Belray Belray Si-7 are examples of JASO FD oils spiked with ester.

My applications are vintage Yamaha street motorcycles, 70s RD350 and RD400 with Autolube oil injection and I don’t like scrubbing carbon, I use JASO FD oils.

 

[Mainia]

Ester oil, looks spotless to me. BUT, you would think there would some carbon.......

 

[Alain2]

Ester oil, looks spotless to me. BUT, you would think there would some carbon.......

That is not a motorcycle application. My Zenoah 30cc run 25:1 100% ester and it is also clean. That is not the point I was making.

 

[benjy]

some "synthetics" get a splash of ester oil REAL synthetics like Redline use a lot of it!!

 

[MolaKule]

Most modern fully synthetic 2-cycle oils today use a combination of Group III through Group V oils.

Both esters and polybutenes are used; esters for DI additive solvency and friction reduction and polybutenes for friction modification as well. Both esters and polybutenes usually burn clean under ideal combustion conditions.

100% synthetic 2-Stroke lubricant with Ester technology. This says it is 100% synthetic (whatever that is supposed to mean) and has Ester technology (again which or what esters is unknown) are included in the mix. This does NOT say it is composed of 100% Group V esters.

Generally speaking, the amount of carbon that may be formed is based on combustion efficiency and fuel to oil ratio.

 

[RDMgr]

There are a lot of different ester types with different characteristics. To say “ester-based 2T oil” really doesn’t describe the oil very well.

Polybutene is used in 2T oil for smoke control and exhaust system cleanliness. It should be looked at as a functional additive rather than a base fluid. Treat level should be sufficient to control smoke and not more. Polybutene does reduce lubricity. The higher the polybutene treat level the more lubricity is negatively affected.

JASO FC and FD oils are comparable with respect to lubricity and smoke control. JASO FD has increased detergency which will account for improved cleanliness.

Mototribologist may be able to contribute to this discussion. He is a motorcycle enthusiast with a background in 2T and 4T formulating.

 

[MolaKule]

The combination of esters and polybutenes results in cleaner burning and less exhaust smoke. Polybutenes tends to carry out deposits in the exhaust stream.

Two Stroke Engine Oils - KEMAT Polybutenes

KEMAT’s low molecular weight conventional polybutene Polybut™ is used in two stroke engine oils to cleanse exhaust gases. The PIB acts as an attractant of dirt which materialises during the process of burning petrol and oil in an engine.

www.kematbelgium.com

Polybut™ - KEMAT Polybutenes

Polybut: Low Molecular Weight Conventional Polybutenes

www.kematbelgium.com

Properties of Low Molecular Weight Polybutenes

• burns cleanly
• reduces smoke
• improves lubricity
• low exhaust deposits (blocking)
• low detergent in the engine

Two-cycle oil formulations vary from Manf. to manf. and from blender to blender but here is an average of formulations with ranges:
Iron 1 ppm (Multi-functional Corrosion Inhibitor, usually a x,x dimercapto-x.x.x- thiadiazole derivative; also serves as an Antiwear/Antiscuff component, an Ashless Antioxidant, and Metal Deactivator)
Boron 2-5 ppm (a boron ester as an FM and AW)
Sodium 3-5 ppm (Anti-rust)
Magnesium 2 - 5 ppm
Calcium 10 to 100 ppm (magnesium and calcium are detergents; Low ash formulations use < 5 ppm of extra detergents)
Phosphorus 5 -10 ppm
Zinc 10-15 ppm (Zinc and phosphorus are in the form of low levels of Anti-Wear (AW) and Anti-oxidant (AO) ZDDP
Visc= 6.5 to 14.0 cSt (Depends on application) with the median of 7.5 cSt@100C.
TBN ~ = 1.6

Base oils may be a mixture of Group III (hydroisomerized), Group IV PAO, and Group V (esters and low molecular weight polybutenes at about 30-40 ppm).

In many formulations with low levels of esters, a solvent may be used to insure mixing with fuel and solvency of DI components. Solvents may be naphtha, kerosene, or cumene (isopropylbenzene).

A special molybdenum compound may also be used as a combustion enhancer.

Lately, many manf. have been adding an additional fuel stabilization compounds as well.

 

[RDMgr]

The combination of esters and polybutenes results in cleaner burning and less exhaust smoke. Polybutenes tends to carry out deposits in the exhaust stream.

Two Stroke Engine Oils - KEMAT Polybutenes

KEMAT’s low molecular weight conventional polybutene Polybut™ is used in two stroke engine oils to cleanse exhaust gases. The PIB acts as an attractant of dirt which materialises during the process of burning petrol and oil in an engine.

www.kematbelgium.com

Polybut™ - KEMAT Polybutenes

Polybut: Low Molecular Weight Conventional Polybutenes

www.kematbelgium.com

Properties of Low Molecular Weight Polybutenes

• burns cleanly
• reduces smoke
• improves lubricity
• low exhaust deposits (blocking)
• low detergent in the engine

Two-cycle oil formulations vary from Manf. to manf. and from blender to blender but here is an average of formulations with ranges:
Iron 1 ppm (Multi-functional Corrosion Inhibitor, usually a x,x dimercapto-x.x.x- thiadiazole derivative; also serves as an Antiwear/Antiscuff component, an Ashless Antioxidant, and Metal Deactivator)
Boron 2-5 ppm (a boron ester as an FM and AW)
Sodium 3-5 ppm (Anti-rust)
Magnesium 2 - 5 ppm
Calcium 10 to 100 ppm (magnesium and calcium are detergents; Low ash formulations use < 5 ppm of extra detergents)
Phosphorus 5 -10 ppm
Zinc 10-15 ppm (Zinc and phosphorus are in the form of low levels of Anti-Wear (AW) and Anti-oxidant (AO) ZDDP
Visc= 6.5 to 14.0 cSt (Depends on application) with the median of 7.5 cSt@100C.
TBN ~ = 1.6

Base oils may be a mixture of Group III (hydroisomerized), Group IV PAO, and Group V (esters and low molecular weight polybutenes at about 30-40 ppm).

In many formulations with low levels of esters, a solvent may be used to insure mixing with fuel and solvency of DI components. Solvents may be naphtha, kerosene, or cumene (isopropylbenzene).

A special molybdenum compound may also be used as a cobustion enhancer.

Lately, many manf. have been adding an additional fuel stabilization compounds as well.

You're quoting sales literature of a company that sells PB. Other manufacturers of PB discuss 2T smoke reduction and exhaust system cleanliness but not lubricity improvement. My statement of reduced lubricity is based on Japanese studies (motorcycle manufacturer study and SAE papers) of PB, treat levels and effects. They tested up to 80% PB and saw reduced lubricity versus non-PB treated oil at every treat level. Other references discuss the use of PB in 2T oils for smoke reduction and improving lubricity by using esters and lubricity boosting additives. Again, lubricity not provided by PB. PB is great stuff but it does have limitations.

 

[Alain2]

https://global.yamaha-motor.com/design_technology/technical_review/pdf/browse/35tr0008.pdf

Study on Bearing Lubricity with 2-stroke Engine Oil

 

[Howe]

Hello guys, has anyone try to pour 2 stroke lubricants (JASO FC or JASO FD) into fuel tank of 4-stroke injected moped engine? Around 2,5ml for 4 liters of gasoline (1:4000), is it safe to do? What is the immediate effect will I get by doing that?

 

[kschachn]

Hello guys, has anyone try to pour 2 stroke lubricants (JASO FC or JASO FD) into fuel tank of 4-stroke injected moped engine? Around 2,5ml for 4 liters of gasoline (1:4000), is it safe to do? What is the immediate effect will I get by doing that?

Rather than asking an off-topic question in an existing thread, ask this question in a new one. Or search for existing threads and topics. There are several already on this exact question.

 

[ragtoplvr]

still use vintage lawnboy, F engine. The Muffler is getting pretty heavy with carbon after 30 + years and is not really cleanable. Would polybutenes remove some of this buildup? What oils have a lot.

Rod

 

[SuperSalad]

Hello guys, has anyone try to pour 2 stroke lubricants (JASO FC or JASO FD) into fuel tank of 4-stroke injected moped engine? Around 2,5ml for 4 liters of gasoline (1:4000), is it safe to do? What is the immediate effect will I get by doing that?

Well that would be 1:1600, not 1:4000.

I'd expect the effect to be pretty imperceptible. It might provide a smidge of upper cylinder lubrication, but that ratio is tiny even compared to the ratios people add 2-stroke oils to 4-stroke engine regularly. It is a relatively common practice for some people to add oils such as a TC-W3 marine oil at somewhere around 1:400 as an "upper cylinder lube" and that has no real detrimental effects unless you are running a catalytic converter.

 

[thastinger]

still use vintage lawnboy, F engine. The Muffler is getting pretty heavy with carbon after 30 + years and is not really cleanable. Would polybutenes remove some of this buildup? What oils have a lot.

Rod

ultrasonic cleaner will take care of it, use purple power as the liquid in the cleaner

 

[Mike72]

still use vintage lawnboy, F engine. The Muffler is getting pretty heavy with carbon after 30 + years and is not really cleanable. Would polybutenes remove some of this buildup? What oils have a lot.

Rod

If the muffler is still in good condition and not rusted through that carbon can be burned out by either placing the muffler on a hot bed of charcoal briquettes or in a fire. All that will remain is fine white ash, easy to shake out or blow out with compressed air. Spray with a high temp (1800-2000 F) silver or black and you're good to go.

 

[BBDartCA]

My applications are vintage Yamaha street motorcycles, 70s RD350 and RD400 with Autolube oil injection and I don’t like scrubbing carbon, I use JASO FD oils.

I recommend either Klotz TCW3 motorcycle techniplate or the snowmobile techniplate injector oils. I have run literally buckets Of these in stock and hot 70’s 80’s street street Kawasaki triples/Yamaha RZ500’s with zero lube issues. Super clean Burning and smells good too. Last I looked, both are (finallly) on the official respective JASO lists. Don’t confuse these Klotz products with Supertechniplate 20% castor or traditional Benol castor (these will likely wreck your Autolube (actually a Mukuni product) due to viscosity),,