Hello all, I'm new here, so hopefully this is the right sub-forum for this topic...
I have been doing reasearch for the past month, and have one unanswered question about some of the 2-cycle oils currently available that I am hoping someone on here can help me with. It is widely believed that 2-cycle oil comes in two basic types: Air-cooled and water-cooled/outboard. The "air-cooled" type is designed for higher operating temperatures/engine RPM and contains a "low-ash" detergent. The "water-cooled/outboard" type is designed for lower operating temperatures/engine RPM, and contains an "ashless" detergent. Either type is not recommended for the other's application, due to various concerns.
Here are a couple quoted paragraphs from an article written by Robert Verret:
Additives
The two types of detergents/dispersants most commonly used in 2-stoke oil formations are Ashless and Low Ash. Medium Ash and High Ash detergents are not used in 2-stoke oils. Ashless detergents are used in low temperature applications such as TCW3 oils where the ring land temperature is held below 300 deg/f. These detergents work well in engines where an excess of cooling capacity is available and power valves are not used. Ashless detergents are manufactured form organic nitrogen compounds (Hydrazine) instead of heavy metal compounds; therefore, they produce no ash as they are burned away. This is where the name “Ashless” comes from. Oils containing this type detergent have a characteristic Ammonia odor. Low Ash type detergent/dispersants are used in most API-TC, Jasco FC and ISO GC certified 2-stroke oils. These oils are designed for air-cooled high performance engines that operate under severe load/temperature conditions. Low Ash detergents can keep the deposits to a minimum at ring land temperatures as high as 400 deg/f. These detergents are manufactured from compounds of Calcium and Magnesium (heavy metals). After these compounds (Calcium Phenate or Magnesium Phenate) do their job, they burn away, forming a heavy metal salt (ash) that is swept away during the normal combustion process. Hence, this is where the name Ash-type detergent comes from. Ash type detergents depend on the higher combustion temperatures (787 and 951 engines) to keep the resulting ash swept out. Therefore, the use of these high performance oils in outboard or other mildly tuned 2-stroke engines is not recommended. Some manufacturers are using a combination of detergent types (Ashless and Low Ash) to provide a broader range of uses for their oil. It is important to note that oil designed to meet TCW3 specs. only (Ashless) will not protect an engine requiring API-TC (Low Ash) type oil. The converse is also true. Using a Low Ash oil in an engine designed for an Ashless type oil only could result in fouled plugs and gummy combustion chambers. When 2-stroke oil is kept in its temperature limits, it provides an adequate protective film between all moving parts. When that maximum temperature is exceeded, the oil film breaks down and usually seizure occurs unless another line of defense is added to the oil mixture. These are the Antiwear agents. These Zinc compounds (Zinc Dithiophoshate) flow in with the oil and are never used unless the base oil breaks down. If the base oil breaks down, they form a protective barrier between the moving parts (usually piston skirts and cylinder walls).
What does ATP-TC and TCW3 mean?
Specifications for 2-stroke oils are developed from the design of the engine and its intended use (no surprise). Since this type engine has a wide variety of applications its no surprise that the specifications for the oils might vary also. For marine and PWC application there are 2 widely accepted standards for certifying 2-stroke engine oils. These are, by no means, not the only standards for 2-stroke engine oils. The European (ISO) and the Japanese (JASCO) standards have been developed, but these standards are not widely accepted in the country (yet). The standards most used in this country are the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMATCW3) standard and the American Petroleum Institute (API API-TC) standard. Both of these standards address the oil ability to prevent wear, keep the engine clean and biodegradability. Since these standards were written for different types of 2-stroke engines it stands to reason these standards would be different. Hence, the oils developed from these standards would also be different. The NMMA TCW3 standard was designed by the various manufacturers of outboard motors (Mercury, OMC, Yamaha etc.). These manufacturers so not utilize power valves, limit their max rpms to about 6800 and have excessive cooking capacity. They also must be able to operate at lower rpms for long periods of time without oil fouling the spark plugs. Although it’s true the performance of this type engine has increased in the last several years, the peak engine temperatures are still relatively low. The use of synthetic base oil in TCW# formulations has extended the useful range of these oils; their detergent system (Ashless) is designed for lower operating conditions.
The API API-TC standard was developed for Air-cooled, high rpm, high output 2-stroke engines operating under severe load conditions.[/b] Although this standard is no longer reviewed and updated since 1993 b the API, it still is in effect today. This standard most accurately addresses the condition Rotax and 2-stroke racing motorcycles and snowmobiles operate under. Almost all these oils are formulated with synthetic or synthetic blend base oils and all use a low ash type detergent.
(end quoted text)
Despite these "facts", there are several 2-cycle oils on the market today that claim to be "multi-purpose", and be usable in air OR water-cooled/ouboard applications.
For example:
Valvoline® Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle Engine Oil, TC-W3, A general purpose oil for air-cooled, 2-cycle engine, Provides excellent performance in lawn mowers, chain saws, string trimmers, outboard engines, jet skis, motorcycles and snow blowers. Valvoline's ashless Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle oil is specially formulated for high-revving, small two-cycle engines, air- or water-cooled engines, pre-mix or injection
Pennzoil ® Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle Premium Engine Oil, Pennzoil ® Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle Premium Engine Oil is a high-performance 2-cycle engine oil meeting or exceeding the warranty requirements of all leading manufacturers of 2-cycle products including chain saws, lawn mowers, motorcycles and string trimmers, as well as outboard engines made by: Johnson/Evinrude, Mercury Marine, Yamaha, Suzuki, Nissan, Force/US Marine, Mariner, Sears and all other manufacturers requiring NMMA TC-W3® oil. Recommended for pre-mix, injector systems and direct injection systems. Good for water-cooled and air-cooled 2-cycle engines recommending NMMA TC-W3® products.
Coastal 2-Cycle Engine Oil TC-W3 is recommended for use in all two-cycle engines: outboard marine engines, motorcycles, snowmobiles, ATV's, lawn mowers, and chainsaws, and meets or exceeds the recommendations of all major two-cycle engine manufacturers requiring TC-W, TC-WII, or TC-W3. This product is licensed and approved by the NMMA as "Recertified" TC-W3.
Blue Marble High Performance 2-Cycle Oil, Blue Marble 2-Cycle Oil is an ashless, high detergent, top-quality lubricant that meets the needs of all high performance 2-cycle engines whether air or water cooled as a premix or oil injected. Meets or exceeds JASO FD, TC-W3® and ISO EGD specifications. Usage info:Recommended for use in 2-cycle engines in fuel injections or premix: ATVs, motorcycles, outboard motors, personal watercrafts, scooters, snowmobiles and other 2-cycle engines. Safe for use in all power valve systems.
Klotz Motorcycle TechniPlate® TC-W3, Pure synthetic lubricant, with an extremely high load carrying capacity for reduced engine wear. Clean Burn™, No-Smoke Technology eliminates carbon and residue build-up. Exceeds JASO FD, ISO-EGD, TC-W3, TC-W2, TC-W and API TC low ash specifications for certified warranty compliance.
As you can see, there are some reputable names there!
SO, my question is this: How can a 2-cycle oil meet both sets of requirements, when the detergent and additive needs are so different? Have they made major advances in the chemistry of the additives that they can now meet both and truly have a multi-purpose 2-cycle oil? Or is this multi-purpose stuff just marketing hype?
I have read that an "air-cooled" test is part of the TC-W3 testing procedures, but isn't enough of a test to be able to certify the oil to any of the API/ISO/JASO standards, like the Klotz and Blue Marble state above.
This all began when I discovered that the 2-cycle oil I had been using was no longer available at ANY retail outlet/dealer in my area. Subsequently I discovered a general lack of air-cooled 2-cycle oil available at a "reasonable" price point, and the search was on...
Sorry that this post was so long, but I wanted to present as many facts as possible.
Any insight would be appreciated!
I have been doing reasearch for the past month, and have one unanswered question about some of the 2-cycle oils currently available that I am hoping someone on here can help me with. It is widely believed that 2-cycle oil comes in two basic types: Air-cooled and water-cooled/outboard. The "air-cooled" type is designed for higher operating temperatures/engine RPM and contains a "low-ash" detergent. The "water-cooled/outboard" type is designed for lower operating temperatures/engine RPM, and contains an "ashless" detergent. Either type is not recommended for the other's application, due to various concerns.
Here are a couple quoted paragraphs from an article written by Robert Verret:
Additives
The two types of detergents/dispersants most commonly used in 2-stoke oil formations are Ashless and Low Ash. Medium Ash and High Ash detergents are not used in 2-stoke oils. Ashless detergents are used in low temperature applications such as TCW3 oils where the ring land temperature is held below 300 deg/f. These detergents work well in engines where an excess of cooling capacity is available and power valves are not used. Ashless detergents are manufactured form organic nitrogen compounds (Hydrazine) instead of heavy metal compounds; therefore, they produce no ash as they are burned away. This is where the name “Ashless” comes from. Oils containing this type detergent have a characteristic Ammonia odor. Low Ash type detergent/dispersants are used in most API-TC, Jasco FC and ISO GC certified 2-stroke oils. These oils are designed for air-cooled high performance engines that operate under severe load/temperature conditions. Low Ash detergents can keep the deposits to a minimum at ring land temperatures as high as 400 deg/f. These detergents are manufactured from compounds of Calcium and Magnesium (heavy metals). After these compounds (Calcium Phenate or Magnesium Phenate) do their job, they burn away, forming a heavy metal salt (ash) that is swept away during the normal combustion process. Hence, this is where the name Ash-type detergent comes from. Ash type detergents depend on the higher combustion temperatures (787 and 951 engines) to keep the resulting ash swept out. Therefore, the use of these high performance oils in outboard or other mildly tuned 2-stroke engines is not recommended. Some manufacturers are using a combination of detergent types (Ashless and Low Ash) to provide a broader range of uses for their oil. It is important to note that oil designed to meet TCW3 specs. only (Ashless) will not protect an engine requiring API-TC (Low Ash) type oil. The converse is also true. Using a Low Ash oil in an engine designed for an Ashless type oil only could result in fouled plugs and gummy combustion chambers. When 2-stroke oil is kept in its temperature limits, it provides an adequate protective film between all moving parts. When that maximum temperature is exceeded, the oil film breaks down and usually seizure occurs unless another line of defense is added to the oil mixture. These are the Antiwear agents. These Zinc compounds (Zinc Dithiophoshate) flow in with the oil and are never used unless the base oil breaks down. If the base oil breaks down, they form a protective barrier between the moving parts (usually piston skirts and cylinder walls).
What does ATP-TC and TCW3 mean?
Specifications for 2-stroke oils are developed from the design of the engine and its intended use (no surprise). Since this type engine has a wide variety of applications its no surprise that the specifications for the oils might vary also. For marine and PWC application there are 2 widely accepted standards for certifying 2-stroke engine oils. These are, by no means, not the only standards for 2-stroke engine oils. The European (ISO) and the Japanese (JASCO) standards have been developed, but these standards are not widely accepted in the country (yet). The standards most used in this country are the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMATCW3) standard and the American Petroleum Institute (API API-TC) standard. Both of these standards address the oil ability to prevent wear, keep the engine clean and biodegradability. Since these standards were written for different types of 2-stroke engines it stands to reason these standards would be different. Hence, the oils developed from these standards would also be different. The NMMA TCW3 standard was designed by the various manufacturers of outboard motors (Mercury, OMC, Yamaha etc.). These manufacturers so not utilize power valves, limit their max rpms to about 6800 and have excessive cooking capacity. They also must be able to operate at lower rpms for long periods of time without oil fouling the spark plugs. Although it’s true the performance of this type engine has increased in the last several years, the peak engine temperatures are still relatively low. The use of synthetic base oil in TCW# formulations has extended the useful range of these oils; their detergent system (Ashless) is designed for lower operating conditions.
The API API-TC standard was developed for Air-cooled, high rpm, high output 2-stroke engines operating under severe load conditions.[/b] Although this standard is no longer reviewed and updated since 1993 b the API, it still is in effect today. This standard most accurately addresses the condition Rotax and 2-stroke racing motorcycles and snowmobiles operate under. Almost all these oils are formulated with synthetic or synthetic blend base oils and all use a low ash type detergent.
(end quoted text)
Despite these "facts", there are several 2-cycle oils on the market today that claim to be "multi-purpose", and be usable in air OR water-cooled/ouboard applications.
For example:
Valvoline® Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle Engine Oil, TC-W3, A general purpose oil for air-cooled, 2-cycle engine, Provides excellent performance in lawn mowers, chain saws, string trimmers, outboard engines, jet skis, motorcycles and snow blowers. Valvoline's ashless Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle oil is specially formulated for high-revving, small two-cycle engines, air- or water-cooled engines, pre-mix or injection
Pennzoil ® Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle Premium Engine Oil, Pennzoil ® Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle Premium Engine Oil is a high-performance 2-cycle engine oil meeting or exceeding the warranty requirements of all leading manufacturers of 2-cycle products including chain saws, lawn mowers, motorcycles and string trimmers, as well as outboard engines made by: Johnson/Evinrude, Mercury Marine, Yamaha, Suzuki, Nissan, Force/US Marine, Mariner, Sears and all other manufacturers requiring NMMA TC-W3® oil. Recommended for pre-mix, injector systems and direct injection systems. Good for water-cooled and air-cooled 2-cycle engines recommending NMMA TC-W3® products.
Coastal 2-Cycle Engine Oil TC-W3 is recommended for use in all two-cycle engines: outboard marine engines, motorcycles, snowmobiles, ATV's, lawn mowers, and chainsaws, and meets or exceeds the recommendations of all major two-cycle engine manufacturers requiring TC-W, TC-WII, or TC-W3. This product is licensed and approved by the NMMA as "Recertified" TC-W3.
Blue Marble High Performance 2-Cycle Oil, Blue Marble 2-Cycle Oil is an ashless, high detergent, top-quality lubricant that meets the needs of all high performance 2-cycle engines whether air or water cooled as a premix or oil injected. Meets or exceeds JASO FD, TC-W3® and ISO EGD specifications. Usage info:Recommended for use in 2-cycle engines in fuel injections or premix: ATVs, motorcycles, outboard motors, personal watercrafts, scooters, snowmobiles and other 2-cycle engines. Safe for use in all power valve systems.
Klotz Motorcycle TechniPlate® TC-W3, Pure synthetic lubricant, with an extremely high load carrying capacity for reduced engine wear. Clean Burn™, No-Smoke Technology eliminates carbon and residue build-up. Exceeds JASO FD, ISO-EGD, TC-W3, TC-W2, TC-W and API TC low ash specifications for certified warranty compliance.
As you can see, there are some reputable names there!
SO, my question is this: How can a 2-cycle oil meet both sets of requirements, when the detergent and additive needs are so different? Have they made major advances in the chemistry of the additives that they can now meet both and truly have a multi-purpose 2-cycle oil? Or is this multi-purpose stuff just marketing hype?
I have read that an "air-cooled" test is part of the TC-W3 testing procedures, but isn't enough of a test to be able to certify the oil to any of the API/ISO/JASO standards, like the Klotz and Blue Marble state above.
This all began when I discovered that the 2-cycle oil I had been using was no longer available at ANY retail outlet/dealer in my area. Subsequently I discovered a general lack of air-cooled 2-cycle oil available at a "reasonable" price point, and the search was on...
Sorry that this post was so long, but I wanted to present as many facts as possible.
Any insight would be appreciated!
Both have "upgraded" carbs. Bike 1 had the same type carb from the factory as it does now, except it had a 12mm venturi (it has a 16mm venturi now). Bike 2 had a 12mm Mikuni on it from the factory.