Equivalent LED T8/T12 tubes?

I'm not sure what the deal is with retrofitting. I realize that 110-120V is basically used because that was the power standard. However, ideally modern lighting could be operated off of lower DC voltages. I've got a few halogens that operate off maybe 12V? When I'm looking at strip light setups, they all have 12V DC transformers. I suppose a lot of the newer residential and commercial setups use DC power? I'd think something like a central low-voltage DC power source for LED lighting would be ideal.
 
I just use the 6$ a bulb t8 leds at home depot. works fine in my kitchen 4 bulb fixture, and the 2 2-bulb fixtures in the garage.

not bypassed. If the ballast goes I guess I'll just have to buy the much more expensive bypass led tubes.
 
Originally Posted by lyle
You can do the rewiring and bypass the ballast, but then you *may* run into issues with UL listing and home inspection markdowns if you ever decide to sell, at least from what a home inspector told me.

Revisiting an old post after my tubes finally died......

So anyone - if I just keep the old ballast lying around I should have no problems if it ever gets to that by just putting it back in? I figure if I ever sell my house I'm probably going to remove that old 70s era fixture anyways and update to something more purpose built for LEDs.

I finally broke down and ordered a pair of direct-wire tubes. These ones:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H4IUN6Q/

One day delivery with Amazon Prime. Must be stored in a local warehouse for them to guarantee one-day delivery. I checked the manufacturer's instructions online, and they recommend just cutting the wires on the ballast and leaving it in place. However, I took out the ballast and stashed it away. It also recommended just cutting the wires to the tombstones/sockets, but I pried them out (to reuse if needed) and left them empty. The wires did sort of break, but I just pushed them through and then shook the piece of copper out. That's mainly for the side that receives no power. These are single-ended tubes. I will need some some wiring though. I could reuse what I've got, but I figure it should be properly color-matched since now it's getting live AC power to the sockets.
 
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by lyle
You can do the rewiring and bypass the ballast, but then you *may* run into issues with UL listing and home inspection markdowns if you ever decide to sell, at least from what a home inspector told me.

Revisiting an old post after my tubes finally died......

So anyone - if I just keep the old ballast lying around I should have no problems if it ever gets to that by just putting it back in? I figure if I ever sell my house I'm probably going to remove that old 70s era fixture anyways and update to something more purpose built for LEDs.

I finally broke down and ordered a pair of direct-wire tubes. These ones:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H4IUN6Q/

One day delivery with Amazon Prime. Must be stored in a local warehouse for them to guarantee one-day delivery. I checked the manufacturer's instructions online, and they recommend just cutting the wires on the ballast and leaving it in place. However, I took out the ballast and stashed it away. It also recommended just cutting the wires to the tombstones/sockets, but I pried them out (to reuse if needed) and left them empty. The wires did sort of break, but I just pushed them through and then shook the piece of copper out. That's mainly for the side that receives no power. These are single-ended tubes. I will need some some wiring though. I could reuse what I've got, but I figure it should be properly color-matched since now it's getting live AC power to the sockets.


You could leave the ballasts and wiring right in place in the fixture. That's probably the preferred given it delays that inevitable waste stream. I removed and threw out the T12 magnetic ballasts out of 5-6 twin tube T12 fixtures I retrofitted with direct wire LEDs months ago in my home. I mail ordered a box of 48" LED tubes from eBay. It's tough to find direct wire LED tubes in stores now. They all seem to be the type to be used with the ballasts in place. Problem is, none of them work with old magnetic T12 ballasts.
 
Originally Posted by JTK
You could leave the ballasts and wiring right in place in the fixture. That's probably the preferred given it delays that inevitable waste stream. I removed and threw out the T12 magnetic ballasts out of 5-6 twin tube T12 fixtures I retrofitted with direct wire LEDs months ago in my home. I mail ordered a box of 48" LED tubes from eBay. It's tough to find direct wire LED tubes in stores now. They all seem to be the type to be used with the ballasts in place. Problem is, none of them work with old magnetic T12 ballasts.

I wanted to remove them because otherwise the wires are kind of a mess to leave in place, and I didn't want to cut them in case I might try reusing them. I just put it in a drawer. The rapid start electronic one is also really much smaller than the old magnetic ballast that I replaced.

It's not exactly the same one I got from Amazon (I got the 120V only dimmable version) but Home Depot has this in stock:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/toggled...LED-Tube-Light-Bulb-E416-50310/300617201

These are non-dimmable (I'm not dimming anyways) but these do operate from 120-277V, probably using a switched-mode supply.

The other problem I had was when I rewired them and the closest I could find was 14 AWG solid wire. The socket instructions say that only 18 AWG should be used, but 14 AWG fits in there without any issue. So everything is set up now and I'm just waiting for the tubes to be delivered.
 
Home Depo had the cheapest T12 led replacements and the cheapest ones were drop in replacements and work great and are noise free, no need to touch the old ballast.

The fancier more expensive drop in replacement LEDs Feit
I was forced to get later
for another T12 fixture works
but is crap and makes a loud buzz.
 
Originally Posted by y_p_w

I wanted to remove them because otherwise the wires are kind of a mess to leave in place, and I didn't want to cut them in case I might try reusing them. I just put it in a drawer. The rapid start electronic one is also really much smaller than the old magnetic ballast that I replaced..


That's true that not all fixtures have the room. The 30+yr/old T12 shop lights I converted over had tons of room to leave the ballast and all the wiring, but it was just as easy for me to yank it all out and toss it. Those magnetic ballasts had to be old because they (and the whole fixtures) were made in the USA.
 
Originally Posted by JTK
Originally Posted by y_p_w

I wanted to remove them because otherwise the wires are kind of a mess to leave in place, and I didn't want to cut them in case I might try reusing them. I just put it in a drawer. The rapid start electronic one is also really much smaller than the old magnetic ballast that I replaced..


That's true that not all fixtures have the room. The 30+yr/old T12 shop lights I converted over had tons of room to leave the ballast and all the wiring, but it was just as easy for me to yank it all out and toss it. Those magnetic ballasts had to be old because they (and the whole fixtures) were made in the USA.

I still have the old magnetic ballast that was likely installed in the 70s by the previous owner. Kind of just kept it and stashed it will a lot of old junk. Made by Universal Manufacturing and it's heavy. Parts of the paper label also chunked off so I can't see all the details. Pretty sure the missing pieces of the label included "Made in USA" somewhere.

There's plenty of room inside the ballast cover for all the wires, but short of cutting them off (not sure why that was recommended) it seemed kind of messy to have all those old wires in there. Now that I've reduced it to one hot and one neutral wire to the single-end, plus two short wires to connect the two sockets in parallel, it looks really clean. Before I left most original ballast wires and they literally just snaked. When I replaced it with the electronic ballast I just cut the original wires (part of the old ballast) and connected them with wire nuts to the new ballast.

But I did arrive home with an Amazon box on my front porch. I opened it up and they were in triangular boxes with more or less triangular tubes. They flex a bit. They had the instructions and the label (stating that direct tubes have been used) with two sockets and two wire nuts shrink wrapped to the tube. I already had everything set up and ready, so these parts will just go in a drawer unless I need them. The tubes are a little bit weird though. One side has a label and I incorrectly pointed it label side down, but I realize the label should be up. Works either way since it's just AC. So it looks pretty good. Turns on almost immediately compared to the fluorescent tubes taking up to a 5 seconds. Maybe there's a faint hum, probably from a switched-mode power supply generating DC, but not as loud as the ballast.

I thought it would be a hassle but this turned out to be easier than I thought it would be.
 
Originally Posted by alarmguy
When I replaced the fluorescent tubes in my kitchen light, I removed the ballasts and changed the sockets, didnt make sense to me to leave the ballasts in.

It turned out to be simpler than I thought it would be. However, I've replaced the ballasts before, so anyone who has done that would probably be able to wire it up safely.

Years (maybe 24) ago I had a 4-tube fluorescent tube fixture that was giving me problems and I called up an electrician. I watched was what going on and after two ballasts, four tubes, several wire nuts, and my wallet $180 (probably the equivalent of $280 today) lighter I figured out how to do it myself. I know a lot of people don't like the idea of screwing things up and maybe the possibility of electrocution, but I went to the breaker in this house and disconnected everything just in case.
 
Originally Posted by alarmguy
When I replaced the fluorescent tubes in my kitchen light, I removed the ballasts and changed the sockets, didnt make sense to me to leave the ballasts in.


In my case the ones with the ballasts left in are completely silent, the ones without emit an aggravating buzz.

I'll pay an extra 10 cents a month to not have bleeding ears, and the bulbs for ballasts were only $5.99 each
 
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by alarmguy
When I replaced the fluorescent tubes in my kitchen light, I removed the ballasts and changed the sockets, didnt make sense to me to leave the ballasts in.


In my case the ones with the ballasts left in are completely silent, the ones without emit an aggravating buzz.

I'll pay an extra 10 cents a month to not have bleeding ears, and the bulbs for ballasts were only $5.99 each

It depends on the quality of the transformer. Most of these today use switched-mode transformers, which is the only way to get something that operates from 120-277V AC. It's more or less like all the various power adapters that we use these days that can operate off of pretty much any international voltage as long as the connection works. They all have a tiny buzz to some degree, but some you need to put your ear up to it to tell.

And when I noted that there was a buzz. I listened a little bit closer, and I can't tell any noise coming out of my ballast bypass tubes. The noise was actually coming from the fluorescent setup on the same switch.

The other issue is that the ballast will eventually fail. Ballast bypass is far simpler. If the ballast fails, both tubes will stop working. If one ballast bypass tube fails, the other one will still be working.
 
Now I'm trying to figure out what to do with the 24" T12 setup that was built into my kitchen and connected to the same circuit as the 48" tubes. There's a recessed cabinet covered by a couple of diffusers. They're set up as two pairs of 24" T12 tubes with each pair in an exposed fixture.hidden in the cabinet behind the diffuser.

I was looking to maybe set it up like I did the 48" setup, but the space is almost nonexistent to take apart the setup and I don't have the tools to deal with a narrow space. The screws are slotted/hex but I'm having a hard time removing them. I finally figured out how to remove the cover for the ballast/wiring. They're using old magnetic ballasts, so direct-fit LED tubes aren't going to work. It's also a huge PITA to disassemble, so I'm trying to disturb as little of the wiring as possible. I'd just like to cut the wires and then reconnect them to hot/neutral with wire nuts.

What I'm thinking of doing is just reusing the ballast wiring since it's already connected, even though it's not color matched and then install single ended ballast bypass LED tubes. I checked and they're using non-shunted lamp holders. Each set is blue/red. I figure I can reuse the wires with one blue/red pair twisted and connected to hot, then the other blue/red pair connected to neutral. It's going to be kind of ugly, but I was thinking of leaving some instructions behind. Conceptually this is simple, but the colors obviously aren't going to be ideal. Maybe at a later time I could get some white and black electrical tape to wrap them and indicate that they're now hot and neutral.

Also - it's just two pairs over the sink, and two pairs may be way too bright. I guess with ballast bypass I could keep a couple of the sockets empty without any problem, and only install if I need more light.
 
Just a little update on my 24 inch setup. I ended up rewiring it with the existing ballast wires and non-shunted lamp holders for a single-ended AC setup on each fixture. The wires aren't color matched, but it should be pretty obvious how they're wired. I cut the ballast wires at the yellow end completely and I'm reusing the red/blue pairs - twisted together and then hooked up with 3 wires in a single wire nut to each hot/neutral wire. They weren't quite long enough to reach the main hot and neutral wires; the main wires only extended a few inches and the ballast wires were about 16 inches. I had enough wire nuts that I reused the hot/neutral ballast wires to extend hot/neutral to the red/blue pairs. At least for the time being I'm leaving the ballasts in place since I don't have the tools to remove them (I think I need an 8 mm socket).

Maybe I was overthinking color coordinating all the wires. No manufacturer's instructions I've seen say that the color has to be matched. Some have YouTube videos showing whatever color wires being reused and just properly wired. I do plan on getting some white electrical tape to cover the red/blue pair connected to neutral.

I just ordered the tubes from Home Depot. These will be the non-dimmable ones that accept 100-277V.
 
Also - I'm pretty sure I didn't short anything since the lights on the same circuit turned on. I'm pretty sure I would have blown a fuse if I had incorrectly wired it.
 
I had a dual tube 8' fluorescent light above my workbench. It drew 103.7 watts @119.3 vAC, and A LUX meter App on my phone placed just above worktable surface, revealed an average of 537LUX , I say average as it was jumping up and down about 60Lux around that 537 reading, continuously.

I was gifted 16 feet of warm white LED strip lights. I made a Doug fir 8' long C channel, painted it silver inside with high temp spray paint and installed 15' 6" of warm white self adhesive strip LEDs inside of it, the other 6 inches for the switch and dimmer controls.

I mounted it at the same height as the 8' fluoro tubes and aimed it down, and 527 lux steady, at 12.4vDC for 27 watts of consumption. At 12.8vDC the LEDs made over 537 lux for just over 29 watts and I can get over 640 lux at 14.7vDC from them for ~43 watts of consumption. The fluoro light radiates light not just straight down but 360 degrees, so the Lux meter on the wall 6 feet away 6 feet high would read lower with the LEDs opposed to the fluoro. I was measuring LUX at one point just over my workbench so the comparison is not really fair to the fluoro's.

I no longer have a dual tube fluoro light over my workbench. No more flicker, no more buzz, no more worry about broken tubes and mercury vapor. All for about 1/4 the power draw for just about the same amount of a more pleasant color light on my workbench. I Feed the LEDs 12v DC battery power through a voltage bucker/reducing converter with fingertwist potentiometer/dimmer, which is only 94% efficient at best, but reducing voltage allows me to dim them smoothly all the way to tiny pinpoints of light and a wattage so low I can't measure it. I put a RGB LED light strip in between the warm white LEDS and can greatly exceed the light reaching the table compared to the fluoro's on the whiter shades available, and I can add 16 more feet of warm white LEDS to the sides of the C channel if more light was required off to teh sides and below, which is unlikely to occur in my application/requirement.

Cool white LEds make more light for the same wattage compared to warm white, and would be closer to the same color as fluoro lights, since it is obvious people will always believe 'whiter' light is always brighter than light with more yellow in it., or just plain prefer it as more 'modern'.

One can acquire 33 feet/ 10 meters of cool or warm white LEd strip lights, withAC/DC powersupply, for about 35$. One could simply peel off the 3M adhesive backing paper and adhere them to the fluoro housings for quick and dirty result.
 
^^ Good post and Lux readings too! ^^ (also in regard to the directionality)
I will admit with LEDs I do like to get "brighter" since they are cheap to operate. Everything in our home is LED and I like nice and bright like a showcase. Hihats/can lights, lamps. ect/
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by alarmguy
^^ Good post and Lux readings too! ^^ (also in regard to the directionality)
I will admit with LEDs I do like to get "brighter" since they are cheap to operate. Everything in our home is LED and I like nice and bright like a showcase. Hihats/can lights, lamps. ect/


I put a corncob LED in an old lamp since I couldn't find a reasonably priced 150watt LED, it's similar to 200 watts and helps brighten an otherwise dark room.

Too bad they say blue spectrum lights are so bad for your health, in a few years the color neutral red/purple spectrum lights will take over for a good nights sleep.
 
Originally Posted by y_p_w
I just ordered the tubes from Home Depot. These will be the non-dimmable ones that accept 100-277V.

It took a week for the tubes to arrive. Even though I ordered them from Home Depot, it' looks like they were delivered straight from the manufacturer's warehouse in Michigan.

Looks good. I figured just one light in each fixture would be enough light. This is kind of a strange setup where the fixtures are in an L shape over the corner above our sink. When we had 4 T20 tubes working, it was way too much light.

The packaging was a bit different. The tubes themselves are still rounded triangles, but they came in rectangular boxes sealed with tape. When I opened at the top there was one socket packaged in a pouch with two wire nuts. Then there was the tube with the instructions/warning sticker/etc taped around the tube. At the other end was a socket that already had one black and one white wire attached. I think the wires are maybe 18" long. The other end was already stripped, but with the insulation still there and slightly pulled out. Since I didn't really feel like changing the sockets, I just left what I had in place with existing wires. Still don't have the white electrical tape, but I'll add that later.

There's something really weird though. They don't light up immediately. There's maybe a half second delay from the time I flip the switch and when it turns on. The 48" dimmable LEDs I have on the same circuit turn on instantly. I don't know if there's some sort of startup time or if maybe there's a relay between the switch and the lights.
 
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