EP additives, flat tappets, engine oil
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MolaKule
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In proper linguistics, a copula word such as "is," is a word used to link the subject of a sentence with a predicate.
Now in the mythical world of Yoda or willyreid the use of the copula word "is" may not be necessary since tinfoil hats are all that is needed for communications.
Now back to the subject. No, EP additives are not proper additives for use in engine oils.
Now in the mythical world of Yoda or willyreid the use of the copula word "is" may not be necessary since tinfoil hats are all that is needed for communications.
Now back to the subject. No, EP additives are not proper additives for use in engine oils.
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Originally Posted By: willyreid
I was talking 90W in the original question. But since I am in LA and you in AZ I could see 140w, but you would need to not let it get cold.
You want specific answers then I need a specific product. Every VOA of gear I have read has no/almost zinc(which is a component to ZDDP). Some use Sulfur-phosphorus additive package that has a high temperature limit of 95C. And this type of gear oil causes wear in yellow metals such as copper and bronze, also causes corrosion when water is present which is a byproduct of internal combustion all are minus and detrimental to IC engines. This type of gear oil is often referred to EP gear oil.
Gear oils do not have alkaline additives such as calcium, magnesium, or sodium to counter sulfuric acid in which forms when the sulfur is burned in gasoline mixes with another by product of the combustion process water.
If you prefer I can use the periodic table, link diagrams and maybe a flow chart of the byproducts of internal combustion and formulations of lubricant products such as PCMO's HDEO's and how this minimizes the negating effects of said byproducts.
Also I can provide VOA's of gear oils that already are a bit acidic and because there are almost no alkaline additives in gear oils. This will cause gear oils in your crackcase to become acidic enough to cause elevated wear on the metal parts of your engine and cause premature failure.
Then again you must be able to understand that acidic substances are corrosive. Corrosive=will destroy and damage other substances with which it comes into contact.
I was talking 90W in the original question. But since I am in LA and you in AZ I could see 140w, but you would need to not let it get cold.
You want specific answers then I need a specific product. Every VOA of gear I have read has no/almost zinc(which is a component to ZDDP). Some use Sulfur-phosphorus additive package that has a high temperature limit of 95C. And this type of gear oil causes wear in yellow metals such as copper and bronze, also causes corrosion when water is present which is a byproduct of internal combustion all are minus and detrimental to IC engines. This type of gear oil is often referred to EP gear oil.
Gear oils do not have alkaline additives such as calcium, magnesium, or sodium to counter sulfuric acid in which forms when the sulfur is burned in gasoline mixes with another by product of the combustion process water.
If you prefer I can use the periodic table, link diagrams and maybe a flow chart of the byproducts of internal combustion and formulations of lubricant products such as PCMO's HDEO's and how this minimizes the negating effects of said byproducts.
Also I can provide VOA's of gear oils that already are a bit acidic and because there are almost no alkaline additives in gear oils. This will cause gear oils in your crackcase to become acidic enough to cause elevated wear on the metal parts of your engine and cause premature failure.
Then again you must be able to understand that acidic substances are corrosive. Corrosive=will destroy and damage other substances with which it comes into contact.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Shannow
This thread has become a bit Far Fetched...
Indeed, seems like a bit of a bait and troll. No real search for an answer (that was provided early on) rather just a quest for an argument/confrontation
This thread has become a bit Far Fetched...
Indeed, seems like a bit of a bait and troll. No real search for an answer (that was provided early on) rather just a quest for an argument/confrontation
I have Shell Rotella T6 5W-40 in both of our big blocks with flat tappets due to its add pack. A couple years ago we started running Archoil AR9100 for engine cleaning and help prevent direct metal to metal contact especially on dry start ups.
Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
A couple years ago we started running Archoil AR9100 for engine cleaning and help prevent direct metal to metal contact especially on dry start ups.
We know, you say it in almost every post.
A couple years ago we started running Archoil AR9100 for engine cleaning and help prevent direct metal to metal contact especially on dry start ups.
We know, you say it in almost every post.
If I owned on of those old MG's, I'd be putting Valvoline VR-1 20W-50 (silver bottle) in there and driving on
Plenty of all the AW additives one could ask for along with the needed TBN package to control acidity.
I would NOT try adding anything else, even though I own about 20 bottles of ZDDP+ left over from the old days of making my own race oils ...
I'll bet half of this "wear" is from cars idling around at shows or in a shop somewhere. Cam lobes are lubed by sling/splash oil. You need to spin that motor to 1,800 RPM and get it to temp to make the ZDDP activate. Too many of these "classic" cars are babied to death
Plenty of all the AW additives one could ask for along with the needed TBN package to control acidity.
I would NOT try adding anything else, even though I own about 20 bottles of ZDDP+ left over from the old days of making my own race oils ...
I'll bet half of this "wear" is from cars idling around at shows or in a shop somewhere. Cam lobes are lubed by sling/splash oil. You need to spin that motor to 1,800 RPM and get it to temp to make the ZDDP activate. Too many of these "classic" cars are babied to death
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MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Shannow
This thread has become a bit Far Fetched...
Indeed, seems like a bit of a bait and troll. No real search for an answer (that was provided early on) rather just a quest for an argument/confrontation
This willyreid or whomever he is came here with an attitude and came here not to learn nor to have his questions answered, but to bait and troll, and to be argumentative.
You should see the list of expletives he sent me in PM's last evening and then removed himself so I couldn't respond.
What a piece of work.
I guess this is what happens when when smoke illegal herbs and drink too much.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
This thread has become a bit Far Fetched...
Indeed, seems like a bit of a bait and troll. No real search for an answer (that was provided early on) rather just a quest for an argument/confrontation
This willyreid or whomever he is came here with an attitude and came here not to learn nor to have his questions answered, but to bait and troll, and to be argumentative.
You should see the list of expletives he sent me in PM's last evening and then removed himself so I couldn't respond.
What a piece of work.
I guess this is what happens when when smoke illegal herbs and drink too much.
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Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
A couple years ago we started running Archoil AR9100 for engine cleaning and help prevent direct metal to metal contact especially on dry start ups.
We know, you say it in almost every post.
Before you spasm next time just fully quote me.
You know I said I use Rotella T6 5W-40 for anti wear in my big block flat tappet engines. I have NO proof that Archoil AR 9100 or AR6200 is of any value in our engines. Many of us are wasting time and money over thinking lubrication I expect but it is FUN.
Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
A couple years ago we started running Archoil AR9100 for engine cleaning and help prevent direct metal to metal contact especially on dry start ups.
We know, you say it in almost every post.
Before you spasm next time just fully quote me.
You know I said I use Rotella T6 5W-40 for anti wear in my big block flat tappet engines. I have NO proof that Archoil AR 9100 or AR6200 is of any value in our engines. Many of us are wasting time and money over thinking lubrication I expect but it is FUN.
Quote from War Games, 1983.
Joshua/WOPR: Wouldn't you prefer a good game of chess?
Joshua/WOPR: Wouldn't you prefer a good game of chess?
Molakule, you really know all the proprietary information of all oils? That was what Diego meant, IMO, nobody involved with the formulation, really knows even analises dont give all the factors, specially base oil and specially the condition of add pack. So you say the UO analise can't give the condition of such used oils, without comparison with it when was new, from its VOA, right? Only the actual formulator of that specific oil itself (and you, maybe) knows what EP and other additives would ruin the soft metals or acid formation to attack hard metals. And, since there is proprietary information involved, that cant be uncovered by lab analises, one could only have empiric experiments with oils
Since you are taking this so personally, I think you could have that coffe and chocolat you said it calms you down.
Since you are taking this so personally, I think you could have that coffe and chocolat you said it calms you down.
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I'm actually legitimately interested in this question. I'm not a tribologist, but do have a background in chemistry(if a masters counts) and am employed in the field.
This is an often discussed issue in MG circles, and I've seen a claim from some folks that 600ppm ZDDP is "enough" after the engine is broken in. By contrast, the articles I've read refer to the formation of a "glass" at the lobe/tappet contact point that is constantly abraded and regenerated.
I am-genuinely-interested in some comments from folks on here "in the know" about if the lower level of ZDDP after break-in is "enough" or if the ~1200 ppm often specified to maintain. On person on one particular MG forum maintains that he's run 300K(with 75 psi of oil pressure) by dumping the cheapest 20W-50 he can find in his sump. He's one of the sources of the "600ppm" claim, although ZDDP levels seem to be hard enough to find even on major brands unless they are specifically catering to the racing or classic car market.
This is an often discussed issue in MG circles, and I've seen a claim from some folks that 600ppm ZDDP is "enough" after the engine is broken in. By contrast, the articles I've read refer to the formation of a "glass" at the lobe/tappet contact point that is constantly abraded and regenerated.
I am-genuinely-interested in some comments from folks on here "in the know" about if the lower level of ZDDP after break-in is "enough" or if the ~1200 ppm often specified to maintain. On person on one particular MG forum maintains that he's run 300K(with 75 psi of oil pressure) by dumping the cheapest 20W-50 he can find in his sump. He's one of the sources of the "600ppm" claim, although ZDDP levels seem to be hard enough to find even on major brands unless they are specifically catering to the racing or classic car market.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Molakule, you really know all the proprietary information of all oils? That was what Diego meant, IMO,
The discussion was about what makes a gear oil inappropriate for use in place of a motor oil. In that context, there is no requirement of proprietary knowledge on individual formulations but rather an understanding of how those products are blended, the differences in their blending and components based on application and the suite of results that would be derived from partaking in such a misapplication. Mola, as a formulator, is more than qualified to properly answer such a question and did so.
Molakule, you really know all the proprietary information of all oils? That was what Diego meant, IMO,
The discussion was about what makes a gear oil inappropriate for use in place of a motor oil. In that context, there is no requirement of proprietary knowledge on individual formulations but rather an understanding of how those products are blended, the differences in their blending and components based on application and the suite of results that would be derived from partaking in such a misapplication. Mola, as a formulator, is more than qualified to properly answer such a question and did so.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Molakule, you really know all the proprietary information of all oils? That was what Diego meant, IMO, nobody involved with the formulation, really knows even analises dont give all the factors, specially base oil and specially the condition of add pack. So you say the UO analise can't give the condition of such used oils, without comparison with it when was new, from its VOA, right? Only the actual formulator of that specific oil itself (and you, maybe) knows what EP and other additives would ruin the soft metals or acid formation to attack hard metals. And, since there is proprietary information involved, that cant be uncovered by lab analises, one could only have empiric experiments with oils
Since you are taking this so personally, I think you could have that coffe and chocolat you said it calms you down.
No Pontual, you are incorrect.
I am not taking it personally. I was simply to trying to answer this guys questions with scientific answers since scientific answers is what he asked for, as you can see in the various exchanges.
But I do know a troll or a fake engineer when I see one, and sarcasm is one method in which to thwart them. It was obvious he was being a SA from the beginning and was not really seeking informative answers, but was only here to be argumentative.
As far as analysis of lubricants, I have access to instrumentation far beyond what Blackstone and ALS have and they can tell me the exact chemical makeup, and the ratio's and proportions of any lubricant and additive package.
Experience from formulating lubricants and extensive lab analysis can tell you what the formulating trends are and except for specialty lubricants, they don't differ too much.
BTW, I have had my second cup of coffee so life is good.
Molakule, you really know all the proprietary information of all oils? That was what Diego meant, IMO, nobody involved with the formulation, really knows even analises dont give all the factors, specially base oil and specially the condition of add pack. So you say the UO analise can't give the condition of such used oils, without comparison with it when was new, from its VOA, right? Only the actual formulator of that specific oil itself (and you, maybe) knows what EP and other additives would ruin the soft metals or acid formation to attack hard metals. And, since there is proprietary information involved, that cant be uncovered by lab analises, one could only have empiric experiments with oils
Since you are taking this so personally, I think you could have that coffe and chocolat you said it calms you down.
No Pontual, you are incorrect.
I am not taking it personally. I was simply to trying to answer this guys questions with scientific answers since scientific answers is what he asked for, as you can see in the various exchanges.
But I do know a troll or a fake engineer when I see one, and sarcasm is one method in which to thwart them. It was obvious he was being a SA from the beginning and was not really seeking informative answers, but was only here to be argumentative.
As far as analysis of lubricants, I have access to instrumentation far beyond what Blackstone and ALS have and they can tell me the exact chemical makeup, and the ratio's and proportions of any lubricant and additive package.
Experience from formulating lubricants and extensive lab analysis can tell you what the formulating trends are and except for specialty lubricants, they don't differ too much.
BTW, I have had my second cup of coffee so life is good.
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Sure, I'm glad you're fine then. 100 years to you!
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MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
I'm actually legitimately interested in this question. I'm not a tribologist, but do have a background in chemistry(if a masters counts) and am employed in the field.
This is an often discussed issue in MG circles, and I've seen a claim from some folks that 600ppm ZDDP is "enough" after the engine is broken in. By contrast, the articles I've read refer to the formation of a "glass" at the lobe/tappet contact point that is constantly abraded and regenerated.
I am-genuinely-interested in some comments from folks on here "in the know" about if the lower level of ZDDP after break-in is "enough" or if the ~1200 ppm often specified to maintain. On person on one particular MG forum maintains that he's run 300K(with 75 psi of oil pressure) by dumping the cheapest 20W-50 he can find in his sump. He's one of the sources of the "600ppm" claim, although ZDDP levels seem to be hard enough to find even on major brands unless they are specifically catering to the racing or classic car market.
Good question and glad to see more chemistry related individuals come here to BITOG.
My thoughts are these:
For older, rebuilt daily driver engines, a level of phos/zinc of about 1200 to 1500 ppm is sufficient for run-in from about 500 to 1500 miles. After that, 600 to 800 ppm of phos/zinc is sufficient.
For newer daily driver engines with highly finished surfaces and or specialty coatings, such as DLC and titanium coatings, 600 to 800 ppm of phos/zinc is sufficient for run-in and refill. In my view, the important thing for those newer daily driver engines during run-in is to change the oil and filter after about 1500 miles to get rid of run-in and factory machining materials.
In addition, one has to realize that in most modern formulations, there are additional or "secondary" Anti-Wear additives that compliment the lower ZDDP levels.
People have become so enamored with ZDDP levels they forget there are un-analyzed, secondary AW additives that reduce wear as well.
For race engines and specialty engines, all bets are off when it comes to those engines. One has to formulate an oil for the expected race conditions, such as HP and Torque, coolant temperatures, type of fuel used, etc.
So one has to differentiate between oil specifications when discussing lubricants and frame the discussion in terms of daily drivers or race engine/specialty engines.
Using a lubricant, such as gear oil with its EP additives in an engine, is simply asking for engine failure down the road.
I'm actually legitimately interested in this question. I'm not a tribologist, but do have a background in chemistry(if a masters counts) and am employed in the field.
This is an often discussed issue in MG circles, and I've seen a claim from some folks that 600ppm ZDDP is "enough" after the engine is broken in. By contrast, the articles I've read refer to the formation of a "glass" at the lobe/tappet contact point that is constantly abraded and regenerated.
I am-genuinely-interested in some comments from folks on here "in the know" about if the lower level of ZDDP after break-in is "enough" or if the ~1200 ppm often specified to maintain. On person on one particular MG forum maintains that he's run 300K(with 75 psi of oil pressure) by dumping the cheapest 20W-50 he can find in his sump. He's one of the sources of the "600ppm" claim, although ZDDP levels seem to be hard enough to find even on major brands unless they are specifically catering to the racing or classic car market.
Good question and glad to see more chemistry related individuals come here to BITOG.
My thoughts are these:
For older, rebuilt daily driver engines, a level of phos/zinc of about 1200 to 1500 ppm is sufficient for run-in from about 500 to 1500 miles. After that, 600 to 800 ppm of phos/zinc is sufficient.
For newer daily driver engines with highly finished surfaces and or specialty coatings, such as DLC and titanium coatings, 600 to 800 ppm of phos/zinc is sufficient for run-in and refill. In my view, the important thing for those newer daily driver engines during run-in is to change the oil and filter after about 1500 miles to get rid of run-in and factory machining materials.
In addition, one has to realize that in most modern formulations, there are additional or "secondary" Anti-Wear additives that compliment the lower ZDDP levels.
People have become so enamored with ZDDP levels they forget there are un-analyzed, secondary AW additives that reduce wear as well.
For race engines and specialty engines, all bets are off when it comes to those engines. One has to formulate an oil for the expected race conditions, such as HP and Torque, coolant temperatures, type of fuel used, etc.
So one has to differentiate between oil specifications when discussing lubricants and frame the discussion in terms of daily drivers or race engine/specialty engines.
Using a lubricant, such as gear oil with its EP additives in an engine, is simply asking for engine failure down the road.
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
I'm actually legitimately interested in this question. I'm not a tribologist, but do have a background in chemistry(if a masters counts) and am employed in the field.
This is an often discussed issue in MG circles, and I've seen a claim from some folks that 600ppm ZDDP is "enough" after the engine is broken in. By contrast, the articles I've read refer to the formation of a "glass" at the lobe/tappet contact point that is constantly abraded and regenerated.
I am-genuinely-interested in some comments from folks on here "in the know" about if the lower level of ZDDP after break-in is "enough" or if the ~1200 ppm often specified to maintain. On person on one particular MG forum maintains that he's run 300K(with 75 psi of oil pressure) by dumping the cheapest 20W-50 he can find in his sump. He's one of the sources of the "600ppm" claim, although ZDDP levels seem to be hard enough to find even on major brands unless they are specifically catering to the racing or classic car market.
Good question and glad to see more chemistry related individuals come here to BITOG.
My thoughts are these:
For older, rebuilt daily driver engines, a level of phos/zinc of about 1200 to 1500 ppm is sufficient for run-in from about 500 to 1500 miles. After that, 600 to 800 ppm of phos/zinc is sufficient.
For newer daily driver engines with highly finished surfaces and or specialty coatings, such as DLC and titanium coatings, 600 to 800 ppm of phos/zinc is sufficient for run-in and refill. In my view, the important thing for those newer daily driver engines during run-in is to change the oil and filter after about 1500 miles to get rid of run-in and factory machining materials.
In addition, one has to realize that in most modern formulations, there are additional or "secondary" Anti-Wear additives that compliment the lower ZDDP levels.
People have become so enamored with ZDDP levels they forget there are un-analyzed, secondary AW additives that reduce wear as well.
For race engines and specialty engines, all bets are off when it comes to those engines. One has to formulate an oil for the expected race conditions, such as HP and Torque, coolant temperatures, type of fuel used, etc.
So one has to differentiate between oil specifications when discussing lubricants and frame the discussion in terms of daily drivers or race engine/specialty engines.
Using a lubricant, such as gear oil with its EP additives in an engine, is simply asking for engine failure down the road.
Thanks for the good detailed answer.
As far as I'm aware, most current major 20W-50s contain some level of ZDDP(I guess I could check in the AA if I were so inclined)-and-as you mentioned-there are other AW additives.
It sounds like if I just keep running Castrol or Penzoil 20W-50 like I have been, I should be okay.
I found an article in the journal of Pchem A that looked at computational models of what's actually happening, but even two read-throughs left my head spinning and my with no real answers to my questions.
Thanks again.
Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
I'm actually legitimately interested in this question. I'm not a tribologist, but do have a background in chemistry(if a masters counts) and am employed in the field.
This is an often discussed issue in MG circles, and I've seen a claim from some folks that 600ppm ZDDP is "enough" after the engine is broken in. By contrast, the articles I've read refer to the formation of a "glass" at the lobe/tappet contact point that is constantly abraded and regenerated.
I am-genuinely-interested in some comments from folks on here "in the know" about if the lower level of ZDDP after break-in is "enough" or if the ~1200 ppm often specified to maintain. On person on one particular MG forum maintains that he's run 300K(with 75 psi of oil pressure) by dumping the cheapest 20W-50 he can find in his sump. He's one of the sources of the "600ppm" claim, although ZDDP levels seem to be hard enough to find even on major brands unless they are specifically catering to the racing or classic car market.
Good question and glad to see more chemistry related individuals come here to BITOG.
My thoughts are these:
For older, rebuilt daily driver engines, a level of phos/zinc of about 1200 to 1500 ppm is sufficient for run-in from about 500 to 1500 miles. After that, 600 to 800 ppm of phos/zinc is sufficient.
For newer daily driver engines with highly finished surfaces and or specialty coatings, such as DLC and titanium coatings, 600 to 800 ppm of phos/zinc is sufficient for run-in and refill. In my view, the important thing for those newer daily driver engines during run-in is to change the oil and filter after about 1500 miles to get rid of run-in and factory machining materials.
In addition, one has to realize that in most modern formulations, there are additional or "secondary" Anti-Wear additives that compliment the lower ZDDP levels.
People have become so enamored with ZDDP levels they forget there are un-analyzed, secondary AW additives that reduce wear as well.
For race engines and specialty engines, all bets are off when it comes to those engines. One has to formulate an oil for the expected race conditions, such as HP and Torque, coolant temperatures, type of fuel used, etc.
So one has to differentiate between oil specifications when discussing lubricants and frame the discussion in terms of daily drivers or race engine/specialty engines.
Using a lubricant, such as gear oil with its EP additives in an engine, is simply asking for engine failure down the road.
Thanks for the good detailed answer.
As far as I'm aware, most current major 20W-50s contain some level of ZDDP(I guess I could check in the AA if I were so inclined)-and-as you mentioned-there are other AW additives.
It sounds like if I just keep running Castrol or Penzoil 20W-50 like I have been, I should be okay.
I found an article in the journal of Pchem A that looked at computational models of what's actually happening, but even two read-throughs left my head spinning and my with no real answers to my questions.
Thanks again.
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