EP additives, flat tappets, engine oil

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By contrast, the articles I've read refer to the formation of a "glass" at the lobe/tappet contact point that is constantly abraded and regenerated.


And those articles are an over simplification of the actual tribology.

Too many times we see the term "glass" and think of the solid phase of this material. The situation is more like a "molten" glass that have the characteristics of a plastic film under pressure.

I would substitute the term "abraded" with the phrase, "the plastic film is squeezed to the point of near surface contact," which would describe the boundary lubrication regime.

And this plastic film is replenished by the active AW additives available in the oil.
 
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Diego3336
I honestly think you will never have the answers you want. At least not here.

Of course there's must have a scientific answer to your question, but I don't think anyone besides the oil formulators can answer them to you basically because I guess anyone here doesn't knows what the oils have and at what concentration.

If you had a bunch of MG engines to run a wear test using every gear oil available, maybe you could have some answers based on the good and old trial-and-error method. But the fact that these stock engines are available for decades and still nobody can make them reliable despite tons of attempts should give you a clue.

But really, what you are asking is not so different than ask why anyone shouldn't put canola or diesel on the sump as both of them are oils after all...


Houve respostas muito precisas às suas perguntas.


Nope.

HOUVERAM respostas muito precisas ..." Plural
 
Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
I'm actually legitimately interested in this question. I'm not a tribologist, but do have a background in chemistry(if a masters counts) and am employed in the field.

This is an often discussed issue in MG circles, and I've seen a claim from some folks that 600ppm ZDDP is "enough" after the engine is broken in. By contrast, the articles I've read refer to the formation of a "glass" at the lobe/tappet contact point that is constantly abraded and regenerated.

I am-genuinely-interested in some comments from folks on here "in the know" about if the lower level of ZDDP after break-in is "enough" or if the ~1200 ppm often specified to maintain. On person on one particular MG forum maintains that he's run 300K(with 75 psi of oil pressure) by dumping the cheapest 20W-50 he can find in his sump. He's one of the sources of the "600ppm" claim, although ZDDP levels seem to be hard enough to find even on major brands unless they are specifically catering to the racing or classic car market.


Good question and glad to see more chemistry related individuals come here to BITOG.

My thoughts are these:

For older, rebuilt daily driver engines, a level of phos/zinc of about 1200 to 1500 ppm is sufficient for run-in from about 500 to 1500 miles. After that, 600 to 800 ppm of phos/zinc is sufficient.

For newer daily driver engines with highly finished surfaces and or specialty coatings, such as DLC and titanium coatings, 600 to 800 ppm of phos/zinc is sufficient for run-in and refill. In my view, the important thing for those newer daily driver engines during run-in is to change the oil and filter after about 1500 miles to get rid of run-in and factory machining materials.

In addition, one has to realize that in most modern formulations, there are additional or "secondary" Anti-Wear additives that compliment the lower ZDDP levels.

People have become so enamored with ZDDP levels they forget there are un-analyzed, secondary AW additives that reduce wear as well.

For race engines and specialty engines, all bets are off when it comes to those engines. One has to formulate an oil for the expected race conditions, such as HP and Torque, coolant temperatures, type of fuel used, etc.

So one has to differentiate between oil specifications when discussing lubricants and frame the discussion in terms of daily drivers or race engine/specialty engines.

Using a lubricant, such as gear oil with its EP additives in an engine, is simply asking for engine failure down the road.


Thanks for the good detailed answer.

As far as I'm aware, most current major 20W-50s contain some level of ZDDP(I guess I could check in the AA if I were so inclined)-and-as you mentioned-there are other AW additives.

It sounds like if I just keep running Castrol or Penzoil 20W-50 like I have been, I should be okay.

I found an article in the journal of Pchem A that looked at computational models of what's actually happening, but even two read-throughs left my head spinning and my with no real answers to my questions.

Thanks again.

The irony is that a high cushion 20w50 needs less ZDDP than a 5w20 does. The thicker can have more ZDDP because it isn't burnt as much as a thinner oil in the cc, so it doesnt affect cat flow. Now, 20 weights are sipped as juice. People blame ring oil scraper ... wth
 
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Searching Google.
It says upgrade the oil pump and oil pan capacity, Use a diesel spec HD oil as well add a vertical baffle to the pick up tube so there is less slosh in the sump.
Mobil Delvac 1 LE or any Delvac oils really.
Im no expert but that should help with the problem.
Oils like VW 504, 507 are great oils but have lower levels of some additives compared to the Delvac s.
Recommendations were use 10 weight for break in 20 weight in winter and 30 weight in summer.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
You should see the list of expletives he sent me in PM's last evening and then removed himself so I couldn't respond.

That certainly reeks of sockpuppetry.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
You should see the list of expletives he sent me in PM's last evening and then removed himself so I couldn't respond.

That certainly reeks of sockpuppetry.


Yep, a real piece of work.
crazy2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
By contrast, the articles I've read refer to the formation of a "glass" at the lobe/tappet contact point that is constantly abraded and regenerated.


And those articles are an over simplification of the actual tribology.

Too many times we see the term "glass" and think of the solid phase of this material. The situation is more like a "molten" glass that have the characteristics of a plastic film under pressure.

I would substitute the term "abraded" with the phrase, "the plastic film is squeezed to the point of near surface contact," which would describe the boundary lubrication regime.

And this plastic film is replenished by the active AW additives available in the oil.



Thanks again for the better explanation.

Like I said, I'm still digging my way through the J Pchem A article-it's been a while since I had to read a computational paper
smile.gif


In any case, is there an ASTM method or something along those lines that I can reference for checking ZDDP levels? I have an AA at my disposal, which seems to be a decent option to at least check zinc concentrations(not ZDDP directly, of course) but talking to the right people I can get access to access to pretty much anything.
 
Most ASTM methods are for the determination of wear results.

Suggest you peruse the back threads of the "Question of the Day" forum for ASTM discussions.
 
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Wow! Who is this MokeTong guy that he can trash everybody and everything he sees as a threat to his kingdom as Lord Provost of the oilbob site? Let the OP clarify his question? No, call him rude for doing that, and begin nitpicking and demeaning the type of car referred to, and trying to rephrase the question so some tripe from a LucasOil website can be cut and pasted in as an answer, or something. How completely infantile. No people watching this site? Then (MokaTon) calls someone a Drunk Pot Smoker. This place is great, but no doubt I will get dismissed for even mentioning the content of the thread. If I last long enough I will post my somewhat related question in a new post.

The only useful piece of info that ever was brought up here, and related to the OPs questions, was about the buffering additives to keep an oil from becoming acidic too quick, so it can last between changes. Actually the OP did question about a possible lack of such buffers in even a good quality synchromesh (gear) oil, but I guess people were too busy trashing everybody else to have even noticed, and it just happened to come up again later, as if it had just been thought of. It was at least a step in the right direction, eh?

No doubt now I will be accused of being the sock puppet of the OP because I actually have read this entire discussion and am not a drunk dope smoker, so I actually can comprehend and remember what has been said. Nor am I some megalomaniacal drip with visions of oily grandeur who sees and knows all about everything oily, and apparently can do no wrong (except to other's) her on oilbob. Colorful IM's? Lucky you's. Keep your pants on (off?) and be happy you got what you were apparently trolling for. Yuk. I can swear as good as any Japanese Imperial Army soldier veteran of 1930's China plunder and pillage, if you would appreciate a sample to help you out there. It would be phonetically correct and it would be meaningless unless you speak Japanese, but still. Could be helpful to that person.

Quite frankly, I would have brought up Boron additive EP oil when the negative sulfur additives info came up. Boron is more common an additive for gear oils in Europe. Along with a sort of base level of sulfur. The Boron gear oils begin slightly more acidic than most all-sulfur ones, generally, but are quite well buffered against acidity. At least for gear oil use. Use in an engine, I just don't know? Would buffers be destroyed quicker there because why or why not? More heat in engine, more contamination, or what? Are you guys saying that typical gearbox oils with synchro additives are not buffered, or not buffered in the right way to be run in an engine? If that's the case, like about how long would you estimate (for laughs) it would stay buffered being used in an engine? I don't know, I am asking? I thought they would be buffered, and pretty much work wherever. Or are you guys saying just that the high sulfur ones are corrosive, by way of the high sulfur? An example of an EP boron sold in the US would be Delo Gear ESI by Chevron. Or maybe its Standard Oil Chevron, or Standard Oil of CA? https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=76979&docFormat=PDF Comes in a multi-weight 85/90 and 85/140. I am not saying this is any good for a synchro gearbox or to run in an engine, I am just saying it is a formulation that has some sulfur, but it appears to have boron instead of huge amounts of sulfur to achieve EP. The copper strip tests on this oil appear to show a very non corrosive (yellow metals) product. Not as non corrosive as the Redline MT90, but quite close and quite low on that tarnish scale. Something that may be of interest to cars like OP mentioned with yellow metal in differential and gearbox anyway. Not to mention the standard Delo 85w90 gear oil close to same viscosity as 20w50. And once again I am not saying to run it in the engine, just that there are some things to look at.

At least one other person on this topic has expressed interest in the subject matter of the question, and is not here for just the sideshow. I don't have an answer to the OP question, just some other possibly related info to add.

As this site was mentioned on a British car forum recently you can expect some traffic from there. I think it is pretty strange that at least one here finds trashing the car related to the question is somehow constructive. Is that your way of saying you have no answer because you cannot google it, so pick a fight and maybe nobody will notice you have no answer? Maybe you are still sour at having the RAF alone kicking the Luftwaffe into the dirt? This is not a discussion of the Lucas based fuel injection the Luftwaffe used to lose to the carbureted high octane RAF. It is not about you feeling poor self esteem over having the relatively primitive Mk1 Hurricane rule the sky's as early as the BOB, so you feel the need to trash all things British. Come out of your underground bunker some time and feel the sunshine. You might notice the rest of the world has moved on. The British car people know all about zddp levels, and discussion of zddp tends to inspire suggestions to go search archives, it is that boring to them on those sites. This site does have a good search feature that yields mostly relevant answers, given the right search terms. Better than most. So what would boron EP do in an engine is my addition to the topic here?
 
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Yeah, banned, created a new screen name, and soon to be banned again. How pathetic does one have to be to live and die with an internet oil board?

People often use the phrase "get a life", and in this case that is exactly what needs to happen.

I'm going to guess the member formerly known as "Lubricatosaurus", but that is only a guess.

Originally Posted By: revvedup
Wow! Who is this MokeTong guy that he can trash everybody and everything he sees as a threat to his kingdom as Lord Provost of the oilbob site? Let the OP clarify his question? No, call him rude for doing that, and begin nitpicking and demeaning the type of car referred to, and trying to rephrase the question so some tripe from a LucasOil website can be cut and pasted in as an answer, or something. How completely infantile. No people watching this site? Then (MokaTon) calls someone a Drunk Pot Smoker. This place is great, but no doubt I will get dismissed for even mentioning the content of the thread. If I last long enough I will post my somewhat related question in a new post.
 
Quote:
Better than most. So what would boron EP do in an engine is my addition to the topic here?


Borate Additives

As explained earlier in this thread the class of additives used in engines to combat wear are Anti-Wear additives. Extreme Pressure (EP) additives are used in greases and Gear oils.

The main type of borates used in motor oils are Borate esters.

Basically, there many different types of borate chemistry for different applications
 
Originally Posted By: revvedup
Wow! Who is this MokeTong guy


That's not his screen name, but if you're referring to Molakule, he knows the answer and presented it.

Not sure why all the anger?
 
Originally Posted By: Xrs2zz
That's not his screen name, but if you're referring to Molakule, he knows the answer and presented it.

Not sure why all the anger?


Because he is someone who got banned here a while back, and apparently BITOG is the source of the only meaning in his life.
 
Wow, there is a lot of energy here, not all good ...

Gear lube in an internal combustion engine, I don't think so... But if the OP wants to do that, he should post his 100K mile engine conditions so we could all learn
laugh.gif
 
I know this was about gear oil in an engine, but the funny thing is that there's actually a rather lively thread on one of the MG forums now about using gear oil in transmissions. The original factory spec was for engine oil, but many of us run gear oil(GL-4 spec), and especially MT-specific oil like Redline in our transmissions and are happy with it.

IMO, at least that discussion has somewhat more merit than putting gear oil in an engine
smile.gif
, but I still wouldn't want GL-5 in my transmission.
 
Originally Posted By: revvedup
Wow! Who is this MokeTong guy that he can trash everybody and everything he sees as a threat to his kingdom as Lord Provost of the oilbob site? Let the OP clarify his question? No, call him rude for doing that, and begin nitpicking and demeaning the type of car referred to, and trying to rephrase the question so some tripe from a LucasOil website can be cut and pasted in as an answer, or something. How completely infantile. No people watching this site? Then (MokaTon) calls someone a Drunk Pot Smoker. This place is great, but no doubt I will get dismissed for even mentioning the content of the thread. If I last long enough I will post my somewhat related question in a new post.


Oh he mad and dumb. Huge stockholder in hyperbole as well.
 
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