Engineer's "opinion" on synthetics

[Audi Junkie]

 Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

I have seen filthy 302's run on dino. I have never seen a dirty one run on synthetic. What is "good enough" for one application may not be for another. It is far from the simple universality that you seem to be implying....

Well, the problem there is that the synthetic oil user would be generally more attentive. That is, no way of really knowing that the same result ~could~ have been had on dino. Again too, when speaking of days-of-olde, those were very different formulations than now and not too relavent.

 

[OVERKILL]

 Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie

 Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

I have seen filthy 302's run on dino. I have never seen a dirty one run on synthetic. What is "good enough" for one application may not be for another. It is far from the simple universality that you seem to be implying....

Well, the problem there is that the synthetic oil user would be generally more attentive. That is, no way of really knowing that the sme result ~could~ have been had on dino. Again too, when speaking of days-of-olde, those were very different formulations than now and not too relavent.

My Town Car was faithfully maintained with 5K OCI's by my dad using conventional for most of its life. I did have him using M1 early on, but he switched back. The internal cleanliness of it, and my Mustang engine, which I ran on M1 since the day I got it was night and day.

 

[crinkles]

can someone give me a precis of this bear of an article? I can't be bothering reading all the drivel. a summary will do

 

[The Critic]

That engineer used to post on this site. He is indeed a GM engineer, and Amsoil has even quoted him in some of their articles. The information may be a bit outdated though.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

 Quote:

When I see an engine run for 300 hours at full throttle/max load on an engine dyno with conventional oil and then at teardown the bearings are not even touched and other wear surfaces are fine it is hard to understand just how much "better" synthetic oil could have run.

That's pretty remarkable. How much mileage do you suppose that simulates?

 

[OVERKILL]

 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

 Quote:

When I see an engine run for 300 hours at full throttle/max load on an engine dyno with conventional oil and then at teardown the bearings are not even touched and other wear surfaces are fine it is hard to understand just how much "better" synthetic oil could have run.

That's pretty remarkable. How much mileage do you suppose that simulates?

I'm curious too. M1's dyno test on their Audi(?) engine was for 1,000,000 miles....

 

[Brian Barnhart]

 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

That's pretty remarkable. How much mileage do you suppose that simulates?

300 hours represents about 10-12K miles of normal driving for the average vehicle. It's somewhat hard to compare however, since this was 300 hours at full throttle/load. I would assume that the 300 hour test was done without an oil change, meaning 10-12K miles on dino at full throttle/load. That does seem to demonstrate the high quality of dino.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

 Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart

 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

That's pretty remarkable. How much mileage do you suppose that simulates?

300 hours represents about 10-12K miles of normal driving for the average vehicle. It's somewhat hard to compare however, since this was 300 hours at full throttle/load. I would assume that the 300 hour test was done without an oil change, meaning 10-12K miles on dino at full throttle/load. That does seem to demonstrate the high quality of dino.

The experiences people have on here, with modern conventional oil, seem to suggest that outside of turbocharged applications and extreme cold, synthetic offers insignificant real world advantages. Extended drain intervals, claiming to be the exception, are a fallacy in the author's opinion. The additive package and its depletion dictate change intervals and not the underlying base oil. I just put Gold GC in my '96 Lincoln yesterday. The PAO proponents just got to me. I simply couldn't read one more GC thread and not be part of the party. I might have to buy another car just so I can use more of it at the same time. I want to believe. It's more fun to believe. I'm hoping everything this guy is saying is wrong. The problem is not a single thing he's saying sounds out of whack. I think what's going on here is once upon a time synthetic trounced conventional oil. In 2009 the advantage has been narrowed considerably. How much better is Pennzoil Platinum over Motorcraft? These two oils are widely used on here and appear to be indicative of just how far the industry has come. Cheaper synthetics have given birth to the ultimate dino additive. Ironicaly, cheaper synthetics do not seem to outperform them by much.

 

[peterdaniel]

 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

 Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart

 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

That's pretty remarkable. How much mileage do you suppose that simulates?

300 hours represents about 10-12K miles of normal driving for the average vehicle. It's somewhat hard to compare however, since this was 300 hours at full throttle/load. I would assume that the 300 hour test was done without an oil change, meaning 10-12K miles on dino at full throttle/load. That does seem to demonstrate the high quality of dino.

I want to believe. It's more fun to believe.

That my friends sums it up perfectly.

 

[IndyIan]

 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

 Quote:

When I see an engine run for 300 hours at full throttle/max load on an engine dyno with conventional oil and then at teardown the bearings are not even touched and other wear surfaces are fine it is hard to understand just how much "better" synthetic oil could have run.

That's pretty remarkable. How much mileage do you suppose that simulates?

What type of engine? It would be interesting to see a highstrung turbo engine run at max load for 300 hours, that would actually stress the oil a bit. What would impress me more is a few thousand cold starts at -30C. If dino oil didn't show more wear in that kind of test then I guess I would have to conclude that synthetic oil is a waste of money for me even in winter... Ian

 

[peterdaniel]

-30 is extreme.... a few thousand cold starts???? Im not sure thats even possible in a given normal OCi anyways.. why don't we stick to realistic and NORMAL everyday operations. That was the purpose of his paper/explanation. Then again, given where you live, you might need synthetic. The vast vast vast majority of people do not live in areas that see those temps nor do they cold start their car a "few thousand times".

 

[SubieHo]

 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

I want to believe. It's more fun to believe.

How honest of you -- almost like admitting you want to believe in Santa. I think this alludes to the psycho-emotional component personal oil preferences. The simple question of oil becomes complicated because of the abundance of choice and of the many interests involved: oil producers, oil blenders, commercial oil changers, retailers, environmental groups, and vehicle manufacturers. This is especially true with PCMOs. Managers of vehicle fleets generally run much longer OCIs on both conventional and synthetic lubricants than the typical US consumer. They base their practices on extensive data, and this should tell you you something. Buffers do eventually wear out, and extreme OCIs often incorporate regular filter changes, not because the filter has reached full capacity, but in order to add some fresh oil to the sump. A bit of make-up oil will bolster the TBN and extend the service life of the oil. For this reason, a little oil consumption is actually desirable. As the GM engineer states, synthetic base oils are oxidatively more stable at extreme temperatures, hence it would also follow that a synthetic would provide more margin in terms of the TBN. Then there's also the issue of whether dispersants can prevent coking of the ring packs for the full duration of an extended OCI. As stated by others, anti-wear agents provide a wide margin and are rarely the reason for draining an oil. With the exception of catalytic life compliance, new API standardizations are designed to raise the quality of conventional oils, compelling blenders to use better base oils. It seems that there should be separate standards for conventional and synthetic oils, especially because some claim that "synthetic" has less to do with composition and more to do with performance.

 

[IndyIan]

Well, over the life of a car in central Canada, I'd think that it will be started at temps below -10C over a thousand times. The block, oil, everything below -10. We had -27C this morning and the folks 60 miles north had -34C, so -30C isn't unusual for 14+ million vehicles in Canada. I guess I think you need to get out of everyday normal operation ranges of a car to see the advantages of synthetic oil, especially in short term tests. Cold temperature flow is a clear advantage of synthetic oil, it should reduce engine wear on startup. To see if it does, how else could you test for it? Some number of cold starts should show the difference in wear, maybe its less than 1000, maybe its more, I don't know. To me it would mean something anyways, but I can see in California its not going to be a big selling point! Ian

 

[Art_Vandelay]

 Originally Posted By: SubieHo

-- almost like admitting you want to believe in Santa.

What do you mean...there's no Santa?

 

[chet2]

he sounded professional to me...but cold weather is a great reason to use syn...but dino is probably a better deal

 

[SubieHo]

 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

 Originally Posted By: SubieHo

-- almost like admitting you want to believe in Santa.

What do you mean...there's no Santa?

Of course, Santa exists. In fact, up there he swears by synthetic PA0/ester blends in his daily driver.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

 Originally Posted By: SubieHo

 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

 Originally Posted By: SubieHo

-- almost like admitting you want to believe in Santa.

What do you mean...there's no Santa?

Of course, Santa exists. In fact, up there he swears by synthetic PA0/ester blends in his daily driver.

I knew he'd never use a Group III. Santa needs a real synthetic for all those cold starts. We should ask him to post a UOA.

 

[SubieHo]

 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

We should ask him to post a UOA.

Make sure you're a good boy in 2009, and put it on your wish list.