Engineer's "opinion" on synthetics

Messages
14,854
Location
Illinois
 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
 Quote:
...using synthetic does NOTHING to allow a longer drain interval. Synthetic has the same amounts of ZDP, same problem with fuel and water contamination, same problems with soot, same problem with acid buildup. All reasons why synthetic oil does NOT allow longer drain intervals.
Interesting to say the least. What do the experienced people on here say?
This goes against every lube engineer I've ever herd of on this subject. Tell that to a Merc.engineer with their 13,000 mile OCI.
 
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Messages
47,938
Location
Everson WA - Pacific NW USA
 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
 Quote:
...using synthetic does NOTHING to allow a longer drain interval. Synthetic has the same amounts of ZDP, same problem with fuel and water contamination, same problems with soot, same problem with acid buildup. All reasons why synthetic oil does NOT allow longer drain intervals.
Interesting to say the least. What do the experienced people on here say?
ZDDP takes a good while to deplete. Fuel can be an issue for some engines, but most engines it's not a huge problem at all. Water simply is not a problem unless you never warm the car up. Soot? In a diesel, yes eventually. Solids and breakdown products mostly come from the oil itself. Synthetics hold up much better. Acid build up can come from water and breakdown products, but just how well have oils been holding up in the TBN dept? Pretty good. Amsoil and others do just fine at 15K-25K. Therefore I declare him full of doo-doo.
 
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3,756
Location
CA
So 90% on here have nothing to say other than he doesn't write like you think an engineer should? I work with/around engineers every day and some have terrible spelling and grammer but they are good engineers.
 
Messages
1,339
Location
USA
 Originally Posted By: tig1
This goes against every lube engineer I've ever herd of on this subject. Tell that to a Merc.engineer with their 13,000 mile OCI.
He claims that has more to do with the particular vehicle than whether or not synthetic or dino is used.
 Quote:
I agree that it is possible, under certain conditions, to run the oil past 15,000 or even 20,000 miles. If the oil is being used under conditions that allow an extremely long change interval then conventional oil will last just as long as synthetic under those conditions.
Other than extreme temperature performance, where synthetic is superior, this man is stating that nothing about synthetic outperforms dino. The additive packages all have some amount of synthetic in them and modern conventional oils are very high quality. I know it's an ego killer but it doesn't sound insane. Instead of slamming it isn't it worthy of debate?
 
Messages
14,854
Location
Illinois
The additive package is very important, buy the base oil is the most important foundation of an oil product. As a jet engine Mech in the 60s I learned synthetics were the only oil a jet engine could survive on. Mineral base oils completely destroyed bearing at the high RPMs and excessive heat of turbo jets. To under rate base stock is a mistake IMO.
 
Messages
25,095
Location
Dallas,Tx USA
 Originally Posted By: BuickGN
I'm dumping my Amsoil immediately.......lol. He took a shot at Amsoil, yes. Other than that, everything he said makes perfect sense. This actually helps me to think I'm not crazy when my teardowns showed less wear with conventional 20-50 over Mobil One 15-50. With my flat tappet, high spring pressure, cam gear driven non gearator oil pump, timing chain, non-roller rocker engine.
^^Dino 20W50 all the way my brutha! That`s what`s in my car`s belly
 
Messages
3,130
Location
Phila,PA
 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
 Originally Posted By: tig1
This goes against every lube engineer I've ever herd of on this subject. Tell that to a Merc.engineer with their 13,000 mile OCI.
He claims that has more to do with the particular vehicle than whether or not synthetic or dino is used.
 Quote:
I agree that it is possible, under certain conditions, to run the oil past 15,000 or even 20,000 miles. If the oil is being used under conditions that allow an extremely long change interval then conventional oil will last just as long as synthetic under those conditions.
Other than extreme temperature performance, where synthetic is superior, this man is stating that nothing about synthetic outperforms dino. The additive packages all have some amount of synthetic in them and modern conventional oils are very high quality. I know it's an ego killer but it doesn't sound insane. Instead of slamming it isn't it worthy of debate?
Look at VOAs. Synthetics are MUCH more robust. Look at UOAs. Synthetics last longer. What do ya wanna debate???
 
Messages
1,339
Location
USA
 Originally Posted By: tig1
The additive package is very important, buy the base oil is the most important foundation of an oil product. As a jet engine Mech in the 60s I learned synthetics were the only oil a jet engine could survive on. Mineral base oils completely destroyed bearing at the high RPMs and excessive heat of turbo jets. To under rate base stock is a mistake IMO.
The point is made in the text that turbo vehicles are better off with synthetic. No question on a jet engine.
 
Messages
1,339
Location
USA
 Originally Posted By: rg200amp
What do ya wanna debate???
Does Motorcraft synthetic blend perform about as well as Pennzoil Platinum?
 
Messages
3,756
Location
CA
 Originally Posted By: rg200amp
 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
 Originally Posted By: tig1
This goes against every lube engineer I've ever herd of on this subject. Tell that to a Merc.engineer with their 13,000 mile OCI.
He claims that has more to do with the particular vehicle than whether or not synthetic or dino is used.
 Quote:
I agree that it is possible, under certain conditions, to run the oil past 15,000 or even 20,000 miles. If the oil is being used under conditions that allow an extremely long change interval then conventional oil will last just as long as synthetic under those conditions.
Other than extreme temperature performance, where synthetic is superior, this man is stating that nothing about synthetic outperforms dino. The additive packages all have some amount of synthetic in them and modern conventional oils are very high quality. I know it's an ego killer but it doesn't sound insane. Instead of slamming it isn't it worthy of debate?
Look at VOAs. Synthetics are MUCH more robust. Look at UOAs. Synthetics last longer. What do ya wanna debate???
Sure about that?
 
Messages
19,528
Location
Lake Forest, CA
 Quote:
...using synthetic does NOTHING to allow a longer drain interval. Synthetic has the same amounts of ZDP, same problem with fuel and water contamination, same problems with soot, same problem with acid buildup. All reasons why synthetic oil does NOT allow longer drain intervals.
Mercedes OLM was called FSS, it was calibrated with synthetic oil, but some owners used dino and they had engine sludge. http://www.legalnewswatch.com/185/judge-approves-settlement-worth-32m-in-mercedes-benz-case "Plaintiffs claimed that Mercedes-Benz vehicles were equipped with a defective “Flexible Service System”. The system is designed to monitor the vehicle’s driving condition and alert drivers when the car requires an oil change. The alleged problem with the FSS occurs when the driver uses conventional oil instead of synthetic oil."
 
Messages
3,130
Location
Phila,PA
 Originally Posted By: BuickGN
 Originally Posted By: rg200amp
 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
 Originally Posted By: tig1
This goes against every lube engineer I've ever herd of on this subject. Tell that to a Merc.engineer with their 13,000 mile OCI.
He claims that has more to do with the particular vehicle than whether or not synthetic or dino is used.
 Quote:
I agree that it is possible, under certain conditions, to run the oil past 15,000 or even 20,000 miles. If the oil is being used under conditions that allow an extremely long change interval then conventional oil will last just as long as synthetic under those conditions.
Other than extreme temperature performance, where synthetic is superior, this man is stating that nothing about synthetic outperforms dino. The additive packages all have some amount of synthetic in them and modern conventional oils are very high quality. I know it's an ego killer but it doesn't sound insane. Instead of slamming it isn't it worthy of debate?
Look at VOAs. Synthetics are MUCH more robust. Look at UOAs. Synthetics last longer. What do ya wanna debate???
Sure about that?
I call it as I see it. Show me VOAs where one brands dino oil has more detergents like CA or antiwear additives than its synthetic counter part. Or A UOA showing 10,000 miles on dino that looks better than 10,000 miles on synthetic. Again, I call it as I see it.
 
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Messages
1,081
Location
oklahoma
I did not read 100% of it yet, but in skimming, it makes good sense.. dino power to the avg joe!!!!!!! (I am a 8-yr Mobil-1 user LOL; hypocrite)...but I am gonna try dino in that particular rig anyway and was planning to before I read this post.
 
Messages
3,756
Location
CA
This should be fun. So you're saying no dino oil has a more robust add pack than any synthetic? You don't know enough about oils to make the determination which one has a better add pack. Synthetics last longer in oxidation resistance from heat only.
 
Messages
3,130
Location
Phila,PA
 Originally Posted By: BuickGN
This should be fun. So you're saying no dino oil has a more robust add pack than any synthetic? You don't know enough about oils to make the determination which one has a better add pack. Synthetics last longer in oxidation resistance from heat only.
No I am not saying NO DINO is more robust than ANY synthetic. I am sure there are a small few pricey dinos out there that beat some synthetics. BUT Again I will say: Same brand, find a dino that is better than its synthetic counter part. I do not know enough?? Knowledge is not the issue here. Take a stroll to the VOA and UOA section. "Synthetics last longer in oxidation resistance from heat only" Oooo, so they do not hold up a bit better to contamination from fuel and/or water?? They do not flow better at cold temps????? Yes Dinos are great oils. Thats not a question. Mobil, Valvoline, Castrol, Pennzoil, ect. . . dino is great. There synthetic counterparts are a bit more beefy as shown is countless VOAs.
 
Messages
275
Location
Californ I/A
Honestly, I think the whole point regarding this engineers expose is that with the exception of a few race type engines/cars, Synthetic is way way way overkill for the driving the vast majority of people do today and that dino will meet these needs just fine. Just like we see these killer 4x4 vehicles. Yes, they will perform better in extreme off road conditions, but everyday driving, it will not do any better than your average run of the mill Toyota Corolla. Hence you are wasting your money. The funny thing again is that all of you who do extended drain intervals will spend lots of $$ for the product up front. The high $$ oil filter, the high $$ UOA and more $$ to change that filter 1/2 way through the 25K miles ( if you do like Amsoil says or follow their instructions/ideology) + more to add the 1/2 quart or more to replenish what you use. And for what? You think you are saving money? You must also drive a hybrid with that kind of rationalioeconomic mentality ( yes I made up the word so what?) Synthetics are great. If they are used in the environment that they were designed for. Thats the whole point of the article. It has nothing to do with how he writes. The content is what is important not what it looks like. Then again, if thats important to you, you also most likely determine which oil is great based on what color the container is. Synthetics are all about marketing. YOU NEED IT!!! YOU MUST HAVE THE BEST. YOU ARE BAD IF YOU DON'T USE IT. I will wager that any synthetic oil, put up against any dino oil, used in the same manner under the same conditions and changed at the manufacturers OCI will exhibit the exact same amount of wear. I remember Consumer reports doing an article about this with Taxi's. It all has to do with the conditions you are operating under. Period. And people are so gullible, they will believe anything if you package it or market it in an appealing way. Even dog [censored] is appealing if the puppy is cute enough. Use Dino folks.. or if you use synthetic, use the cheapest you can find. Don't fall for the stupid gimmicks ( Q horsepower?? Torquepower Extended drain but still follow your manufacturers OCI????) Use a quality filter and change it every 5K miles. You will NEVER know the difference between synthetic or dino on 99.9% of the cars out there.
 
Messages
3,756
Location
CA
 Originally Posted By: rg200amp
 Originally Posted By: BuickGN
This should be fun. So you're saying no dino oil has a more robust add pack than any synthetic? You don't know enough about oils to make the determination which one has a better add pack. Synthetics last longer in oxidation resistance from heat only.
No I am not saying NO DINO is more robust than ANY synthetic. I am sure there are a small few pricey dinos out there that beat some synthetics. BUT Again I will say: Same brand, find a dino that is better than its synthetic counter part. I do not know enough?? Knowledge is not the issue here. Take a stroll to the VOA and UOA section. "Synthetics last longer in oxidation resistance from heat only" Oooo, so they do not hold up a bit better to contamination from fuel and/or water?? They do not flow better at cold temps????? Yes Dinos are great oils. Thats not a question. Mobil, Valvoline, Castrol, Pennzoil, ect. . . dino is great. There synthetic counterparts are a bit more beefy as shown is countless VOAs.
The cold flow is not debatable, synthetic wins hands down. That's how I can get away with running a straight weight 30 in my TL in the middle of winter. Same brand dino vs synthetic is meaningless. It's not like they put the exact same add pack in both base oils so you can compare UOAs. They don't hold up better from water and fuel contamination. The only reason I run synthetic in my car is just in case I decide to do something that really heats the oil and it allows me to run a straight weight with good cold flow properties. Again, I had less wear running dino in my turbo car at very short intervals for both. None of this UOA [censored].
 
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