Prove to me, the perceived benefits of synthetic!

[Thatwouldbegreat]

I think I'll start a new thread related to this one on the current oil used in our vehicles.

Then we can share what we use , and maybe why.

Also we can state what we think the base stock of our current oils are, and whether they are mineral, full synthetics, HC synthetics, or a synthetic blend.


Like other posts make clear, nearly all oil is now full synthetic or hydrocracked synthetic....or contains some full or HC synthetic basestock.

There is very little non synthetic PCMO oil on the shelves. I'm sure that there is some.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Quote:

---

Bill,

Can you please shrink those images so they're not so wide? It makes reading this thread difficult as I continually have to scroll right and left to read all the posts. Thanks much,
-AndyH

---

Sorry, it will not allow me to edit.

(if the mods want to delete the images I'll repost after shrinking..)

Sorry!

 

[Tom NJ]

Hi Critic,

Quote:

---

As for service intervals, I’m questioning the advantages of synthetic oil compared to conventional oil, provided that both oils are drained per OEM drain intervals

---

At equal OCIs, synthetics may become somewhat more expensive to use than conventional oils, but I still prefer them because they are better quality oils and I am willing to pay for quality. If you wish to change your oil every 3,000 miles it pretty much doesn't matter what SL/SM oil you use.

Quote:

---

However, for Joe Blow, how can he realize the benefit of synthetic oil under daily driving conditions? Will his oil temperatures ever reach the point where there’d be a clear benefit between conventional and synthetic oils? Will the minimal deposits he accumulates, from his occasional spike of oil temperature, if any, be seriously detrimental to his engine and significantly reduce his engine life?

---

Only if he drives hard, or has a problem engine, or has a mechanical problem with his engine, or runs consistently hot, or overheats. While these conditions are not "normal", I personally value the feel-good insurance factor I get from using a tougher oil should something go wrong.

Quote:

---

are the fuel efficiency improvements noticeable? Or are they so miniscule that they can easily be lost by other uncontrollable variables?

---

A 1-2% improvement would not be "visible" in the tank-to-tank variations, but that doesn't mean the improvement is not there and contributing to the extra oil price. I have plotted my MPG on every tankful for over 11 years on the same car and it varies +- 15% from the mean! Consumers cannot see small differences in spite of the many claims to the contrary.

Quote:

---

Please expand on your “better” additive system regarding synthetic oils. I suppose that its possible for synthetic oils to contain a better additive package, but to what extent? Doesn’t the API already set fairly tight limits on the amounts of the primary anti-wear additives? Will Joe Blow see a realized benefit compared to draining his conventional oil at the OEM prescribed service interval?

---

The API only limits the amount of one element - phosphorus. Beyond that the formulator is free to formulate as he wishes. The benefit of a more robust additive package will only show up if you extend drains or something goes wrong in the engine.

Quote:

---

You also mention owners keeping their vehicles beyond 100k miles. I can think of many cars that I know of, right now, that have well over 200k miles, some even 300k miles, running on the recommended 5w30 oil and generic filters...

---

I only mentioned 100K because we were talking about average drivers. That's not to say that mineral oil with 3-5K OCIs can't exceed 100K, or even 300K.

Quote:

---

I’m comparing synthetic to conventional oils, provided that both are drained at OEM specified intervals.

---

Net net, at short OCIs many of the synthetic benefits are muted and any SL/SM oil should provide fine lubrication for the life of the car, synthetic or mineral. I think that was your point and I agree. My point is that with extended drains the total cost of lubrication for synthetic versus mineral oil is essentially equalized, so why not use the best. It's a personal choice and to me the benefit of synthetics is the convenience of fewer oil changes, some fuel efficiency, and the insurance factor.

Tom

 

[Cicero]

Quote:

---

For the same price? I'd use Redline over Havoline or GTX!!

But I'd feel guilty draining it every 3K even if it was that cheap!

---

Finally, an direct answer from someone. I was hoping to establish that synthetic are better to move on to the cost effectiveness and persoanl use variables....didn't work out that way.
I'm in that group that wonders if the percentage of "betterness" a synthetic may be is worth the cost over good dino at 3K OCI. I've gone back and forth on this like a fanatic and embarrased myself so many times I'm not sure anymore what I believe. (I know this is old stuff to a lot of BITOG regulars, but have a little sympathy for the new guys and those who have no luck with their searches.)

I'm now leaning towards dinos at 3K with good flow filters. (Can you believe I said that, B. North? You win.)

 

[MGBV8ROADSTER]

I tend to think of Synth as a performance part that pays for itself.

This is probably old and oils move on but an intersting although not scientific comparison


http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oil.html

Choosing an oil can be confusing because everyone has an opinion. I have one too and it has changed as the evidence had showed itself in our driveway. Here is a comparison of four cars using various types of oil and oil changing methods. All four were driven in similar conditions by two people (my father and myself) with very similar driving styles. The last one is for an N/A engine, but it makes a point.

At 120,000 miles, our 1987 Daytona Turbo I got a new camshaft and followers because the old ones were shot. Also, the bores had a noticeable ridge on them from ring wear. This engine got whichever name-brand conventional oil was on sale every 5,000 - 6,000 miles.

At 100,000 miles, I had my 1987 Plymouth Sundance Turbo I apart and the cam and bores had some wear on them. The bores had about the same wear as the Daytona, and the cam was worn, but in better shape. This engine got whatever name-brand conventional oil was on sale every 3,000 - 5,000 miles (5W-30 in the winter and 10W-30 in the summer).

At 110,000 miles, I had my 1987 Dodge Shadow Turbo I apart and the cam and bores had almost no wear on them at all. There was some coking of the oil in the oil supply line to the turbo. This engine always got Pennzoil conventional oil every 3,000 miles (5W-30).

At 104,000 miles, I had my 1987 Shelby CSX Turbo II apart. The bores had NO wear on them at all; I could not see or feel a ridge of any kind and the bearings were in excellent shape. The cam was a roller cam, so it naturally had no wear (not a fair comparison). The inside of the engine was clean and the oil lines were perfectly clear. This engine got 5W-30 Mobil 1 synthetic oil every 3,000 - 5,000 miles.

At 240,000 miles (not a typo), my uncle had the head off of his 1985 Pontiac Firebird (2.6L V6). This engine still looked new. The bores and cam were in excellent shape and the engine runs as quiet as a mouse. It got synthetic oil every 3,000 - 4,000 miles. By 320,000 miles (yes, really), he finally decided to replace the engine with a new long block. The original was starting to get some rod knock, but was still using very little oil. That car is still running and is on it's 4th transmission....

 

[AndyH]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Bill,

Can you please shrink those images so they're not so wide? It makes reading this thread difficult as I continually have to scroll right and left to read all the posts. Thanks much,
-AndyH

---

Sorry, it will not allow me to edit.

(if the mods want to delete the images I'll repost after shrinking..)

Sorry!

---

Bill,

Since those pics are hosted on ImageShack, if you just shrink them on ImageShack they should display smaller here on BITOG (as long as you can give them the same file names...ImageShack might not allow this, I'm not sure as I've never used them to host images.) If you can't, no biggie.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Bill,

Can you please shrink those images so they're not so wide? It makes reading this thread difficult as I continually have to scroll right and left to read all the posts. Thanks much,
-AndyH

---

Sorry, it will not allow me to edit.

(if the mods want to delete the images I'll repost after shrinking..)

Sorry!

---

Bill,

Since those pics are hosted on ImageShack, if you just shrink them on ImageShack they should display smaller here on BITOG (as long as you can give them the same file names...ImageShack might not allow this, I'm not sure as I've never used them to host images.) If you can't, no biggie.

---

Sadly they don't.

Once they are uploaded, they are set.

The person who I posted them for does not get it so if the mods want to just delete the URL then we would be good to go!

Sorry about that. This is what 70+ hour work weeks will do to ya...

Take care, bill

 

[Patman]

I removed the link out of your post, so you can repost a smaller image now if you like.

 

[The Critic]

Quote:

---

It is not according to Toyota; "Extensive idling or low-speed driving for long distances as in heavy commercial use, such as delivery, taxi, or patrol car".

---

It's not about word manipulation. They state that extensive idling or prolonged driving at low-speeds, such as commercial operation, delivery, taxi, police, etc, but not limited to.

 

[bob_ninja]

After reading BITOG for almost a year now I came to the same conclusion. The common commute to work and shops generally doesn't push cars to extremes where synth's superiority starts to matter. In fact, depending on the commute length, many people will have to replace oil before 10K+ extended OCI due to time limit. I generally have 2 changes (6 months) during which I don't exceed 5K, 6K at most. Again, the majority of drivers don't have a turbo, don't tow stuff, don't go to race track, etc. Synth is simply wasted for the general commute driving.

You are 100% right.

This topic keeps coming back because some people keep insisting on synth without a good reason besides, "best for my baby bla bla"?!?!? Or once in a while someone will ask about his car sitting in garage with M1 in it and if it can sit there for 1-2-3 years. Well if it is not used then what the heck is purpose of using synth as opposed to the cheapest dino?!?!?

The other point that is often neglected/ignored is that engine doesn't have to be perfect after 100K/200K/300K! What the heck is point of a spotless engine when the rest of a vehicle is falling apart?!? You just need a good enough oil for projected ownership/lifespan needs.

That being said I do use synth for sub 0F temps in winter. Also mixing in bit of synth at any time is Ok if it makes you feel better, whereas going 100% synth is often waste.

 

[SWS]

Quote:

---

The common commute to work and shops generally doesn't push cars to extremes where synth's superiority starts to matter.... Synth is simply wasted for the general commute driving.

---

I disagree. My around-town commute and stop & go driving was exactly what was putting my '97 Camry 4-Cyl on the verge of sludging in the Summer on Conventional oil (Pennzoil 10W-30), even with a 3-month OCI (~2500 miles). Note that I live in Tennessee, so we have warm summers & mild winters. I observed a difference in the condition of the oil at the end of the summer compared to the end of the winter on this car, unlike any other car I have had. The Conventional oil was really beat-up looking (dark, thin, a little foamy) at the end of the summer, but in the winter it remained clear and maintained some body. This is the opposite of what typically happens to me in year-round stop & go driving in a car that is parked outside. I concluded that the Conventional oil was thermally overstressed in the Summer, and indeed there are several thermal issues with this engine (design flaws). The engine is fuel injected and is rather tight, so there is not much fuel dilution in the oil, which is typical for winter start-ups.

I switched to Synth (M1 5W-30 EP), and after a few short OCIs, I observe that the oil remains clear for an entire year.

In my case, I think that highway miles are the easiest on this engine.

 

[tsmay51]

My brother has 2 dodge cummins diesel trucks. One of them has over 500k on it and the other has 280k on it. Both trucks are ran hard and used day in and day out on a farm/ranch. They both have had a diet of exxon dino 15w40 and fleetguard filters since new. I know these seem like horrible results seeing that they use only ________ dino oil. I guess I am cheap but them results sound pretty good to me. I think I will roll the dice and save some money over the cost of synthetics.